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queensthiefSo I have a problem.
The number of people I personally know who have read The Queen’s Thief series: 2
Number of people I personally know who have read The Lymond Chronicles or House of Niccolo: 0 (unless you count “the regulars” in different discussion groups)
Number of people I know in any capacity who have read both: -0? A black, soulless abyss of no book discussions?
I’ve been a longtime member of Sounis at Livejournal, but rarely post, partially because I forget my login information just about every time I drop by. I originally stumbled onto the Lymond Chronicles because of a Sounis ‘what other characters are like Eugenides’ book discussion years ago. Having just moved near a library with a copy of House of Niccolo and plowed my way through while waiting for TaT, I have recently re-re-re-(etc.)-read The Queen’s Thief series, reread the Lymond Chronicles, tried House of Niccolo, read TaT when released, and reread the Queen’s Thief series (and TaT) again – and I am seriously craving the opportunity to discuss the parallels and similarities with someone, anyone. I’ve searched everywhere I can think of to find a discussion like this, and what I’ve found reading I can in past Sounis archives and online gives me hope that at least a few people may still be around who can and might be willing to help populate this void.
*Being an infrequent poster, please let me know if there is a more appropriate venue for this mixed discussion* Also PROBABLY SPOILERS!
I know that there are many similarities between these series simply because history,
Dunnett: Scotland! Renaissance!
Megan: why settle when you can have all the history! All the countries!
but I think the ‘mental flavor’ of both is similar for me in the way both authors approach their characters, plot development, and the breathe life into history (whether factual or adapted). I’ll try not to dwell overmuch on these obvious parallels unless I get carried away or forget.
- One of my favorite things about reading MWT’s work as an adult is finding the little “Easter Eggs” of homage to influential authors through direct quotes, names, characters, plot details, and again that similarity of ‘mental flavor’. A big draw for me in her work was that I grew up reading Rosemary Sutcliffe, and it was like finding familiar friends when I found quotes and allusions to RS in Megan’s work. Also Dianna Wynn Jones (ah Howl). Finding the Dunnett allusion ‘I can’t keep apologizing…I think you would be bored.” was what started all of this. So…blame Megan for this post? I thought I spotted another this last reread but these are not short books and I forget (perhaps a similar “You’ve always been kind to me.” type quote).
Lymond and Gen:
- I think Eugenides is very much Megan’s, with touches of the things she loved best about other unique hero/anti-hero characters she’d read and perhaps a bit of herself, but this is where I see the most parallels between Dunnett and Megan’s series.
- Extraordinarily physically and intellectually gifted, partly naturally occurring, and partly honed through intensely focused training and high internal standards.
- Childhood isolation, private study. Challenging relationships with peers (sometimes self-inflicted). Scholars, well-read. Friendships, or at least respect, with those that can meet them intellectually and either discuss or delight in banter.
- Acid wit and repartee - deeply cutting remarks, knowing where to hurt, and sometimes galvanizing others when engaged in physical or mental fight.
- Polyglots, masters of disguise - both able to master languages so well that it’s only when partially asleep or deeply ill that other characters recognize it’s not their natural tongue.
- Delight in the flamboyant and foolhardy (“master of foolhardy plans”). Fantastic, well outside the box, complex plans.My internal sense of whimsy can’t help holding onto a vague hope that there will be an army of cows or sheep wearing Eddisian armor in the final Queen’s Thief book.
- Large arsenal of unconventional tools used as weapons or shields - disguise, languages/accents, bitter emotions and experiences, clothing, others weaknesses, etc.
o Clothing is described in great detail in both books, even more particularly for Lymond. Both use clothing offensively and defensively, in creating an image, idea, or character in others’ minds, masking what they don’t want seen, or to make specific statements in different situations.
o Both willing to use painful, bitter emotions as a shield or offensive weapon and for humor – like Gen teasing with Irene or Attolians (‘I’ve already been hunted in Attolia’),or wanting a one-handed statue enough to be a pain about rightful ownership.
- Natural gifts as leaders, despite consistently wanting to draw rigid boundaries around their sense of self and privacy. Incisive ability to understand the emotions and motivations of others around them, and being able or willing to manipulate that to accomplish needed or wanted ends.
- Pushing people away from exigency, a desire for privacy, out of pain, or pig-headedness.
- Both have a rather significant history of injury, and while I’m not a doctor, I think both should be dead several times over. I think Megan is a little more realistic in the way she takes Gen’s past physical (and mental) injuries into account in writing her story. Lymond has many injuries trailing him around as well, which do come into play frequently, but still manages a lot of things physically much better than you might expect of someone who has drowned their liver into oblivion or makes a habit of being on the verge of death.It sometimes seems like in Dunnet’s case, plot is more a “Hamiathes Gift” in prolonging Lymond’s life just a bit past the bounds of credulity because she isn’t done exploiting his character arc.
- Both described as having unique expression when fully engaged mentally or physically - Gen’s ‘glint’ in his eye and head thrown back, or his look that could boil lead.
-Both have multiple instances in being ‘transformed’ or fully revealed for brief moments in all their glory of calculating, passionless (at least for the moment), brilliant minds.
- Being extremely effective and efficient, feeling they need to not keep their gifts to themselves when they have something to offer their country, but also not particularly loving the sometimes bloody paths they tread.
- Paying very high personal prices for success
o Also just had the sudden thought that Gen has sacrificed rather thoughtlessly on altars for years in sort-of a vague way of currying favor without wholly viewing the Gods as real as they later become. I don’t think it was personally cruel or punitive, but that maybe his big loss is his real sacrifice to the Gods both to keep him humble, make him a better king without the unlimited power he might have as a full two-handed thief, and to put him in a position where he can be Attolis and have Attolia, and counteract the Mede.
Lymond Chronicles/Queen’s Thief
- The scene between Gen and the Magus:
"You sound like the chorus in a play," said Eugenides.
"And the play is a tragedy, I suppose?"
"A farce," Eugenides suggested, and the magus winced.
In LC between Lymond, Mariotta, the Dowager, and assorted horrified faces:
He turned on her the vague survey. "Oak of linen and pole of jewels, I've decided on pantomime."
"What a shame, now. I was all ready for buskins, and it's nothing but socks."
"Mime doesn't always mean comedy, my dear; far from it."
An approaching voice, of the self-same timbre, answered him. "Farce, then," said the Dowager composedly.
- Emotionally tense, heightened dialogues in which the silences and what’s not said is as important, if not more important, than what is said.
- Play between Scotland/England – obvious parallels in the way countries on Attolian peninsula have changed hands, had many invaders, small countries being a bone of contention for many years.
- Eddis is a rough, mountainous land, perceived as very backwards by more advanced, cultured civilizations. I think I read once upon a time that the Eddisian accent is something like Scottish – bit more of a brogue. The way the Eddisian soldiers interact with each-other feels Scottish in some ways(arm hair, anyone?) , and their dialogue when training sounds much like similar scenes portrayed in Dunnett’s works.
-Disorderly Knights in particular, talking about the devastating attack on the island of Rhodes reminds me a great deal of the way the Medean empire is set up in The Queen’s Thief series (overwhelming force, feeling themselves superior, rightful conquerors, screen of culture and civility overlaying some extremely barbaric practices, bringing many comforts and appearing almost effeminate while being simultaneously very effective in warfare, special alcoholic beverage, etc.)
-Child loss. :`(
Gelis/Attolia
- Because I had read MWT, my understanding of Irene Attolia helped me better understand Gelis, who was a murky character for me emotionally. Similarly, understanding Gelis helped me have some new insights into Attolia’s character. Some in different groups argue that Gelis was one of Dunnett’s few failings in writing, but I don’t see her in quite that same light, perhaps because of knowing Irene.
- Both cool, collected, smooth and royal with undercurrents of intense emotion.Both have chilly humor, and enough insight into their SO’s nature to be able to sense exactly what will be just right to say to alleviate tension or connect deeply with him (more subtle smug archer with a shot going home).
-Deep past hurts between spouses that becomes a major building block of their relationship and comes up often, like Gen and Attolia reconciling loving someone who has caused some pretty significant pain in their lives.
House of Niccolo:
- Read through this quickly enough and often late enough at night that I didn’t see as many parallels or pick up on as many nuances in the text.
-King of Trebizond – don’t have the book to find this specifically, but I thought there was a reference in the book about the way the king sat on the throne that reminded me a good bit of Gen.
- Vague notion that one name of an emperor in one of the major empires was the same as one named in the QT series, but no supporting information and no desire to dig through that many words to checkk.
- Lots of parallels with history – Cyprus, Egyptian empire, Turks, Uzum Hasan, power plays between countries, ‘continental powers’ sound a bit like major Renaissance nations described in HoN andI wonder if the nation Sounis financed ship purchases through was similar to Venice or Genoa.
Finally, I think it’s important to note that Dunnett and Megan both have short hair as seasoned authors. Perhaps less weight on the head makes them better able to write cunning plots and characters we simultaneously love and want to throttle?
*My spouse reminds me I can't get a degree in comparing favorite authors and we're past the golden age of the three-volume novel, so I'll be done for now. Let's just call this 10 years of posting done all at once, shall we?*
The number of people I personally know who have read The Queen’s Thief series: 2
Number of people I personally know who have read The Lymond Chronicles or House of Niccolo: 0 (unless you count “the regulars” in different discussion groups)
Number of people I know in any capacity who have read both: -0? A black, soulless abyss of no book discussions?
I’ve been a longtime member of Sounis at Livejournal, but rarely post, partially because I forget my login information just about every time I drop by. I originally stumbled onto the Lymond Chronicles because of a Sounis ‘what other characters are like Eugenides’ book discussion years ago. Having just moved near a library with a copy of House of Niccolo and plowed my way through while waiting for TaT, I have recently re-re-re-(etc.)-read The Queen’s Thief series, reread the Lymond Chronicles, tried House of Niccolo, read TaT when released, and reread the Queen’s Thief series (and TaT) again – and I am seriously craving the opportunity to discuss the parallels and similarities with someone, anyone. I’ve searched everywhere I can think of to find a discussion like this, and what I’ve found reading I can in past Sounis archives and online gives me hope that at least a few people may still be around who can and might be willing to help populate this void.
*Being an infrequent poster, please let me know if there is a more appropriate venue for this mixed discussion* Also PROBABLY SPOILERS!
I know that there are many similarities between these series simply because history,
Dunnett: Scotland! Renaissance!
Megan: why settle when you can have all the history! All the countries!
but I think the ‘mental flavor’ of both is similar for me in the way both authors approach their characters, plot development, and the breathe life into history (whether factual or adapted). I’ll try not to dwell overmuch on these obvious parallels unless I get carried away or forget.
- One of my favorite things about reading MWT’s work as an adult is finding the little “Easter Eggs” of homage to influential authors through direct quotes, names, characters, plot details, and again that similarity of ‘mental flavor’. A big draw for me in her work was that I grew up reading Rosemary Sutcliffe, and it was like finding familiar friends when I found quotes and allusions to RS in Megan’s work. Also Dianna Wynn Jones (ah Howl). Finding the Dunnett allusion ‘I can’t keep apologizing…I think you would be bored.” was what started all of this. So…blame Megan for this post? I thought I spotted another this last reread but these are not short books and I forget (perhaps a similar “You’ve always been kind to me.” type quote).
Lymond and Gen:
- I think Eugenides is very much Megan’s, with touches of the things she loved best about other unique hero/anti-hero characters she’d read and perhaps a bit of herself, but this is where I see the most parallels between Dunnett and Megan’s series.
- Extraordinarily physically and intellectually gifted, partly naturally occurring, and partly honed through intensely focused training and high internal standards.
- Childhood isolation, private study. Challenging relationships with peers (sometimes self-inflicted). Scholars, well-read. Friendships, or at least respect, with those that can meet them intellectually and either discuss or delight in banter.
- Acid wit and repartee - deeply cutting remarks, knowing where to hurt, and sometimes galvanizing others when engaged in physical or mental fight.
- Polyglots, masters of disguise - both able to master languages so well that it’s only when partially asleep or deeply ill that other characters recognize it’s not their natural tongue.
- Delight in the flamboyant and foolhardy (“master of foolhardy plans”). Fantastic, well outside the box, complex plans.
- Large arsenal of unconventional tools used as weapons or shields - disguise, languages/accents, bitter emotions and experiences, clothing, others weaknesses, etc.
o Clothing is described in great detail in both books, even more particularly for Lymond. Both use clothing offensively and defensively, in creating an image, idea, or character in others’ minds, masking what they don’t want seen, or to make specific statements in different situations.
o Both willing to use painful, bitter emotions as a shield or offensive weapon and for humor – like Gen teasing with Irene or Attolians (‘I’ve already been hunted in Attolia’),
- Natural gifts as leaders, despite consistently wanting to draw rigid boundaries around their sense of self and privacy. Incisive ability to understand the emotions and motivations of others around them, and being able or willing to manipulate that to accomplish needed or wanted ends.
- Pushing people away from exigency, a desire for privacy, out of pain, or pig-headedness.
- Both have a rather significant history of injury, and while I’m not a doctor, I think both should be dead several times over. I think Megan is a little more realistic in the way she takes Gen’s past physical (and mental) injuries into account in writing her story. Lymond has many injuries trailing him around as well, which do come into play frequently, but still manages a lot of things physically much better than you might expect of someone who has drowned their liver into oblivion or makes a habit of being on the verge of death.
- Both described as having unique expression when fully engaged mentally or physically - Gen’s ‘glint’ in his eye and head thrown back, or his look that could boil lead.
-
- Being extremely effective and efficient, feeling they need to not keep their gifts to themselves when they have something to offer their country, but also not particularly loving the sometimes bloody paths they tread.
- Paying very high personal prices for success
o Also just had the sudden thought that Gen has sacrificed rather thoughtlessly on altars for years in sort-of a vague way of currying favor without wholly viewing the Gods as real as they later become. I don’t think it was personally cruel or punitive, but that maybe his big loss is his real sacrifice to the Gods both to keep him humble, make him a better king without the unlimited power he might have as a full two-handed thief, and to put him in a position where he can be Attolis and have Attolia, and counteract the Mede.
Lymond Chronicles/Queen’s Thief
- The scene between Gen and the Magus:
"You sound like the chorus in a play," said Eugenides.
"And the play is a tragedy, I suppose?"
"A farce," Eugenides suggested, and the magus winced.
In LC between Lymond, Mariotta, the Dowager, and assorted horrified faces:
He turned on her the vague survey. "Oak of linen and pole of jewels, I've decided on pantomime."
"What a shame, now. I was all ready for buskins, and it's nothing but socks."
"Mime doesn't always mean comedy, my dear; far from it."
An approaching voice, of the self-same timbre, answered him. "Farce, then," said the Dowager composedly.
- Emotionally tense, heightened dialogues in which the silences and what’s not said is as important, if not more important, than what is said.
- Play between Scotland/England – obvious parallels in the way countries on Attolian peninsula have changed hands, had many invaders, small countries being a bone of contention for many years.
- Eddis is a rough, mountainous land, perceived as very backwards by more advanced, cultured civilizations. I think I read once upon a time that the Eddisian accent is something like Scottish – bit more of a brogue. The way the Eddisian soldiers interact with each-other feels Scottish in some ways
-
-
Gelis/Attolia
- Because I had read MWT, my understanding of Irene Attolia helped me better understand Gelis, who was a murky character for me emotionally. Similarly, understanding Gelis helped me have some new insights into Attolia’s character. Some in different groups argue that Gelis was one of Dunnett’s few failings in writing, but I don’t see her in quite that same light, perhaps because of knowing Irene.
- Both cool, collected, smooth and royal with undercurrents of intense emotion.
-
House of Niccolo:
- Read through this quickly enough and often late enough at night that I didn’t see as many parallels or pick up on as many nuances in the text.
-
- Vague notion that one name of an emperor in one of the major empires was the same as one named in the QT series, but no supporting information and no desire to dig through that many words to checkk.
- Lots of parallels with history – Cyprus, Egyptian empire, Turks, Uzum Hasan, power plays between countries, ‘continental powers’ sound a bit like major Renaissance nations described in HoN and
Finally, I think it’s important to note that Dunnett and Megan both have short hair as seasoned authors. Perhaps less weight on the head makes them better able to write cunning plots and characters we simultaneously love and want to throttle?
*My spouse reminds me I can't get a degree in comparing favorite authors and we're past the golden age of the three-volume novel, so I'll be done for now. Let's just call this 10 years of posting done all at once, shall we?*
no subject
Date: 6/29/17 05:07 pm (UTC)And oh yes, the blackberry pie! Honestly, between the two, I think the blackberry pie is more emotive to me - not just my heart, but the means wherewith to hurt if hurt were needed. There are definitely some parallels between the very few characters who truly have a friend's view of Eugenides and Lymond and thereby have the reciprocating ability to take their hearts on a toothpick.