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queensthiefSo I have a problem.
The number of people I personally know who have read The Queen’s Thief series: 2
Number of people I personally know who have read The Lymond Chronicles or House of Niccolo: 0 (unless you count “the regulars” in different discussion groups)
Number of people I know in any capacity who have read both: -0? A black, soulless abyss of no book discussions?
I’ve been a longtime member of Sounis at Livejournal, but rarely post, partially because I forget my login information just about every time I drop by. I originally stumbled onto the Lymond Chronicles because of a Sounis ‘what other characters are like Eugenides’ book discussion years ago. Having just moved near a library with a copy of House of Niccolo and plowed my way through while waiting for TaT, I have recently re-re-re-(etc.)-read The Queen’s Thief series, reread the Lymond Chronicles, tried House of Niccolo, read TaT when released, and reread the Queen’s Thief series (and TaT) again – and I am seriously craving the opportunity to discuss the parallels and similarities with someone, anyone. I’ve searched everywhere I can think of to find a discussion like this, and what I’ve found reading I can in past Sounis archives and online gives me hope that at least a few people may still be around who can and might be willing to help populate this void.
*Being an infrequent poster, please let me know if there is a more appropriate venue for this mixed discussion* Also PROBABLY SPOILERS!
I know that there are many similarities between these series simply because history,
Dunnett: Scotland! Renaissance!
Megan: why settle when you can have all the history! All the countries!
but I think the ‘mental flavor’ of both is similar for me in the way both authors approach their characters, plot development, and the breathe life into history (whether factual or adapted). I’ll try not to dwell overmuch on these obvious parallels unless I get carried away or forget.
- One of my favorite things about reading MWT’s work as an adult is finding the little “Easter Eggs” of homage to influential authors through direct quotes, names, characters, plot details, and again that similarity of ‘mental flavor’. A big draw for me in her work was that I grew up reading Rosemary Sutcliffe, and it was like finding familiar friends when I found quotes and allusions to RS in Megan’s work. Also Dianna Wynn Jones (ah Howl). Finding the Dunnett allusion ‘I can’t keep apologizing…I think you would be bored.” was what started all of this. So…blame Megan for this post? I thought I spotted another this last reread but these are not short books and I forget (perhaps a similar “You’ve always been kind to me.” type quote).
Lymond and Gen:
- I think Eugenides is very much Megan’s, with touches of the things she loved best about other unique hero/anti-hero characters she’d read and perhaps a bit of herself, but this is where I see the most parallels between Dunnett and Megan’s series.
- Extraordinarily physically and intellectually gifted, partly naturally occurring, and partly honed through intensely focused training and high internal standards.
- Childhood isolation, private study. Challenging relationships with peers (sometimes self-inflicted). Scholars, well-read. Friendships, or at least respect, with those that can meet them intellectually and either discuss or delight in banter.
- Acid wit and repartee - deeply cutting remarks, knowing where to hurt, and sometimes galvanizing others when engaged in physical or mental fight.
- Polyglots, masters of disguise - both able to master languages so well that it’s only when partially asleep or deeply ill that other characters recognize it’s not their natural tongue.
- Delight in the flamboyant and foolhardy (“master of foolhardy plans”). Fantastic, well outside the box, complex plans.My internal sense of whimsy can’t help holding onto a vague hope that there will be an army of cows or sheep wearing Eddisian armor in the final Queen’s Thief book.
- Large arsenal of unconventional tools used as weapons or shields - disguise, languages/accents, bitter emotions and experiences, clothing, others weaknesses, etc.
o Clothing is described in great detail in both books, even more particularly for Lymond. Both use clothing offensively and defensively, in creating an image, idea, or character in others’ minds, masking what they don’t want seen, or to make specific statements in different situations.
o Both willing to use painful, bitter emotions as a shield or offensive weapon and for humor – like Gen teasing with Irene or Attolians (‘I’ve already been hunted in Attolia’),or wanting a one-handed statue enough to be a pain about rightful ownership.
- Natural gifts as leaders, despite consistently wanting to draw rigid boundaries around their sense of self and privacy. Incisive ability to understand the emotions and motivations of others around them, and being able or willing to manipulate that to accomplish needed or wanted ends.
- Pushing people away from exigency, a desire for privacy, out of pain, or pig-headedness.
- Both have a rather significant history of injury, and while I’m not a doctor, I think both should be dead several times over. I think Megan is a little more realistic in the way she takes Gen’s past physical (and mental) injuries into account in writing her story. Lymond has many injuries trailing him around as well, which do come into play frequently, but still manages a lot of things physically much better than you might expect of someone who has drowned their liver into oblivion or makes a habit of being on the verge of death.It sometimes seems like in Dunnet’s case, plot is more a “Hamiathes Gift” in prolonging Lymond’s life just a bit past the bounds of credulity because she isn’t done exploiting his character arc.
- Both described as having unique expression when fully engaged mentally or physically - Gen’s ‘glint’ in his eye and head thrown back, or his look that could boil lead.
-Both have multiple instances in being ‘transformed’ or fully revealed for brief moments in all their glory of calculating, passionless (at least for the moment), brilliant minds.
- Being extremely effective and efficient, feeling they need to not keep their gifts to themselves when they have something to offer their country, but also not particularly loving the sometimes bloody paths they tread.
- Paying very high personal prices for success
o Also just had the sudden thought that Gen has sacrificed rather thoughtlessly on altars for years in sort-of a vague way of currying favor without wholly viewing the Gods as real as they later become. I don’t think it was personally cruel or punitive, but that maybe his big loss is his real sacrifice to the Gods both to keep him humble, make him a better king without the unlimited power he might have as a full two-handed thief, and to put him in a position where he can be Attolis and have Attolia, and counteract the Mede.
Lymond Chronicles/Queen’s Thief
- The scene between Gen and the Magus:
"You sound like the chorus in a play," said Eugenides.
"And the play is a tragedy, I suppose?"
"A farce," Eugenides suggested, and the magus winced.
In LC between Lymond, Mariotta, the Dowager, and assorted horrified faces:
He turned on her the vague survey. "Oak of linen and pole of jewels, I've decided on pantomime."
"What a shame, now. I was all ready for buskins, and it's nothing but socks."
"Mime doesn't always mean comedy, my dear; far from it."
An approaching voice, of the self-same timbre, answered him. "Farce, then," said the Dowager composedly.
- Emotionally tense, heightened dialogues in which the silences and what’s not said is as important, if not more important, than what is said.
- Play between Scotland/England – obvious parallels in the way countries on Attolian peninsula have changed hands, had many invaders, small countries being a bone of contention for many years.
- Eddis is a rough, mountainous land, perceived as very backwards by more advanced, cultured civilizations. I think I read once upon a time that the Eddisian accent is something like Scottish – bit more of a brogue. The way the Eddisian soldiers interact with each-other feels Scottish in some ways(arm hair, anyone?) , and their dialogue when training sounds much like similar scenes portrayed in Dunnett’s works.
-Disorderly Knights in particular, talking about the devastating attack on the island of Rhodes reminds me a great deal of the way the Medean empire is set up in The Queen’s Thief series (overwhelming force, feeling themselves superior, rightful conquerors, screen of culture and civility overlaying some extremely barbaric practices, bringing many comforts and appearing almost effeminate while being simultaneously very effective in warfare, special alcoholic beverage, etc.)
-Child loss. :`(
Gelis/Attolia
- Because I had read MWT, my understanding of Irene Attolia helped me better understand Gelis, who was a murky character for me emotionally. Similarly, understanding Gelis helped me have some new insights into Attolia’s character. Some in different groups argue that Gelis was one of Dunnett’s few failings in writing, but I don’t see her in quite that same light, perhaps because of knowing Irene.
- Both cool, collected, smooth and royal with undercurrents of intense emotion.Both have chilly humor, and enough insight into their SO’s nature to be able to sense exactly what will be just right to say to alleviate tension or connect deeply with him (more subtle smug archer with a shot going home).
-Deep past hurts between spouses that becomes a major building block of their relationship and comes up often, like Gen and Attolia reconciling loving someone who has caused some pretty significant pain in their lives.
House of Niccolo:
- Read through this quickly enough and often late enough at night that I didn’t see as many parallels or pick up on as many nuances in the text.
-King of Trebizond – don’t have the book to find this specifically, but I thought there was a reference in the book about the way the king sat on the throne that reminded me a good bit of Gen.
- Vague notion that one name of an emperor in one of the major empires was the same as one named in the QT series, but no supporting information and no desire to dig through that many words to checkk.
- Lots of parallels with history – Cyprus, Egyptian empire, Turks, Uzum Hasan, power plays between countries, ‘continental powers’ sound a bit like major Renaissance nations described in HoN andI wonder if the nation Sounis financed ship purchases through was similar to Venice or Genoa.
Finally, I think it’s important to note that Dunnett and Megan both have short hair as seasoned authors. Perhaps less weight on the head makes them better able to write cunning plots and characters we simultaneously love and want to throttle?
*My spouse reminds me I can't get a degree in comparing favorite authors and we're past the golden age of the three-volume novel, so I'll be done for now. Let's just call this 10 years of posting done all at once, shall we?*
The number of people I personally know who have read The Queen’s Thief series: 2
Number of people I personally know who have read The Lymond Chronicles or House of Niccolo: 0 (unless you count “the regulars” in different discussion groups)
Number of people I know in any capacity who have read both: -0? A black, soulless abyss of no book discussions?
I’ve been a longtime member of Sounis at Livejournal, but rarely post, partially because I forget my login information just about every time I drop by. I originally stumbled onto the Lymond Chronicles because of a Sounis ‘what other characters are like Eugenides’ book discussion years ago. Having just moved near a library with a copy of House of Niccolo and plowed my way through while waiting for TaT, I have recently re-re-re-(etc.)-read The Queen’s Thief series, reread the Lymond Chronicles, tried House of Niccolo, read TaT when released, and reread the Queen’s Thief series (and TaT) again – and I am seriously craving the opportunity to discuss the parallels and similarities with someone, anyone. I’ve searched everywhere I can think of to find a discussion like this, and what I’ve found reading I can in past Sounis archives and online gives me hope that at least a few people may still be around who can and might be willing to help populate this void.
*Being an infrequent poster, please let me know if there is a more appropriate venue for this mixed discussion* Also PROBABLY SPOILERS!
I know that there are many similarities between these series simply because history,
Dunnett: Scotland! Renaissance!
Megan: why settle when you can have all the history! All the countries!
but I think the ‘mental flavor’ of both is similar for me in the way both authors approach their characters, plot development, and the breathe life into history (whether factual or adapted). I’ll try not to dwell overmuch on these obvious parallels unless I get carried away or forget.
- One of my favorite things about reading MWT’s work as an adult is finding the little “Easter Eggs” of homage to influential authors through direct quotes, names, characters, plot details, and again that similarity of ‘mental flavor’. A big draw for me in her work was that I grew up reading Rosemary Sutcliffe, and it was like finding familiar friends when I found quotes and allusions to RS in Megan’s work. Also Dianna Wynn Jones (ah Howl). Finding the Dunnett allusion ‘I can’t keep apologizing…I think you would be bored.” was what started all of this. So…blame Megan for this post? I thought I spotted another this last reread but these are not short books and I forget (perhaps a similar “You’ve always been kind to me.” type quote).
Lymond and Gen:
- I think Eugenides is very much Megan’s, with touches of the things she loved best about other unique hero/anti-hero characters she’d read and perhaps a bit of herself, but this is where I see the most parallels between Dunnett and Megan’s series.
- Extraordinarily physically and intellectually gifted, partly naturally occurring, and partly honed through intensely focused training and high internal standards.
- Childhood isolation, private study. Challenging relationships with peers (sometimes self-inflicted). Scholars, well-read. Friendships, or at least respect, with those that can meet them intellectually and either discuss or delight in banter.
- Acid wit and repartee - deeply cutting remarks, knowing where to hurt, and sometimes galvanizing others when engaged in physical or mental fight.
- Polyglots, masters of disguise - both able to master languages so well that it’s only when partially asleep or deeply ill that other characters recognize it’s not their natural tongue.
- Delight in the flamboyant and foolhardy (“master of foolhardy plans”). Fantastic, well outside the box, complex plans.
- Large arsenal of unconventional tools used as weapons or shields - disguise, languages/accents, bitter emotions and experiences, clothing, others weaknesses, etc.
o Clothing is described in great detail in both books, even more particularly for Lymond. Both use clothing offensively and defensively, in creating an image, idea, or character in others’ minds, masking what they don’t want seen, or to make specific statements in different situations.
o Both willing to use painful, bitter emotions as a shield or offensive weapon and for humor – like Gen teasing with Irene or Attolians (‘I’ve already been hunted in Attolia’),
- Natural gifts as leaders, despite consistently wanting to draw rigid boundaries around their sense of self and privacy. Incisive ability to understand the emotions and motivations of others around them, and being able or willing to manipulate that to accomplish needed or wanted ends.
- Pushing people away from exigency, a desire for privacy, out of pain, or pig-headedness.
- Both have a rather significant history of injury, and while I’m not a doctor, I think both should be dead several times over. I think Megan is a little more realistic in the way she takes Gen’s past physical (and mental) injuries into account in writing her story. Lymond has many injuries trailing him around as well, which do come into play frequently, but still manages a lot of things physically much better than you might expect of someone who has drowned their liver into oblivion or makes a habit of being on the verge of death.
- Both described as having unique expression when fully engaged mentally or physically - Gen’s ‘glint’ in his eye and head thrown back, or his look that could boil lead.
-
- Being extremely effective and efficient, feeling they need to not keep their gifts to themselves when they have something to offer their country, but also not particularly loving the sometimes bloody paths they tread.
- Paying very high personal prices for success
o Also just had the sudden thought that Gen has sacrificed rather thoughtlessly on altars for years in sort-of a vague way of currying favor without wholly viewing the Gods as real as they later become. I don’t think it was personally cruel or punitive, but that maybe his big loss is his real sacrifice to the Gods both to keep him humble, make him a better king without the unlimited power he might have as a full two-handed thief, and to put him in a position where he can be Attolis and have Attolia, and counteract the Mede.
Lymond Chronicles/Queen’s Thief
- The scene between Gen and the Magus:
"You sound like the chorus in a play," said Eugenides.
"And the play is a tragedy, I suppose?"
"A farce," Eugenides suggested, and the magus winced.
In LC between Lymond, Mariotta, the Dowager, and assorted horrified faces:
He turned on her the vague survey. "Oak of linen and pole of jewels, I've decided on pantomime."
"What a shame, now. I was all ready for buskins, and it's nothing but socks."
"Mime doesn't always mean comedy, my dear; far from it."
An approaching voice, of the self-same timbre, answered him. "Farce, then," said the Dowager composedly.
- Emotionally tense, heightened dialogues in which the silences and what’s not said is as important, if not more important, than what is said.
- Play between Scotland/England – obvious parallels in the way countries on Attolian peninsula have changed hands, had many invaders, small countries being a bone of contention for many years.
- Eddis is a rough, mountainous land, perceived as very backwards by more advanced, cultured civilizations. I think I read once upon a time that the Eddisian accent is something like Scottish – bit more of a brogue. The way the Eddisian soldiers interact with each-other feels Scottish in some ways
-
-
Gelis/Attolia
- Because I had read MWT, my understanding of Irene Attolia helped me better understand Gelis, who was a murky character for me emotionally. Similarly, understanding Gelis helped me have some new insights into Attolia’s character. Some in different groups argue that Gelis was one of Dunnett’s few failings in writing, but I don’t see her in quite that same light, perhaps because of knowing Irene.
- Both cool, collected, smooth and royal with undercurrents of intense emotion.
-
House of Niccolo:
- Read through this quickly enough and often late enough at night that I didn’t see as many parallels or pick up on as many nuances in the text.
-
- Vague notion that one name of an emperor in one of the major empires was the same as one named in the QT series, but no supporting information and no desire to dig through that many words to checkk.
- Lots of parallels with history – Cyprus, Egyptian empire, Turks, Uzum Hasan, power plays between countries, ‘continental powers’ sound a bit like major Renaissance nations described in HoN and
Finally, I think it’s important to note that Dunnett and Megan both have short hair as seasoned authors. Perhaps less weight on the head makes them better able to write cunning plots and characters we simultaneously love and want to throttle?
*My spouse reminds me I can't get a degree in comparing favorite authors and we're past the golden age of the three-volume novel, so I'll be done for now. Let's just call this 10 years of posting done all at once, shall we?*
no subject
Date: 6/29/17 08:10 am (UTC)*past the age of the three-volume novel? I guess ... into the age of the Seven Book Series? ;)
no subject
Date: 6/29/17 04:45 pm (UTC)I would definitely recommend Dorothy Dunnett's work, even if for no other reason than it will certainly keep you busy for a bit while waiting for the next QT book. But fair warning - they are adult books, not YA, and have a lot more adult content (incest in HoN for example) and are not reads for the faint of heart. This is one of the reasons MWT is still my favorite. They are set in historical periods where atrocities were part of life, and being something of a powerful rising star Lymond encounters a lot of the world's culture and unsavory, evil people as well as not being an ideal hero himself. Also, there is a companion guide to the series, especially The Game of Kings, because there are so many literary allusions and quotes and a massive character list. There is a pretty hefty buy-in - 100+ pages of 'what the heck is going on' and 'this guy is a charismatic, enigmatic jerk' - before you can get over the hump and get interested in him as a complicated 'hero' figure. But it starts with a plot with a prize pig, so how can you go wrong there? Dunnet is an absolutely brilliant writer, and if you like finding and sorting through Megan's layered meaning in her phrases and scenes, you'll find that in abundance in Dunnett's series.
no subject
Date: 6/29/17 11:37 am (UTC)I think I read once upon a time that the Eddisian accent is something like Scottish
Just reread the bit in KoA where Gen's cousins come by to keep hi in bed while he heals, and imagined them with Scottish accents. Did not know that it was meant to be that way!
no subject
Date: 6/29/17 04:22 pm (UTC)http://sounis.livejournal.com/592524.html
And ye Gods, Dunnett certainly beats up on her characters with surprising regularity. I kind-of think she was a bit enamored of Lymond herself, so while she is a fabulous writer and has to have a certain amount of stretching to fit fictional people into real events, I do think she got a little carried away with exploring the psychological and physical side-effects of trauma on a character she loved and what would bring him to breaking point. MWT is a tad more believable to me in the way she makes bad things happen realistically or for a real reason (historically accurate punishment for thieving for example). It does make me chuckle a little that the Gods being more real in her stories makes it a little bit of a convenient "Deus ex Machina" in moving things forward, like helping Gen make some peace with his physically enforced change of career because of what the trade-off might mean.
no subject
Date: 6/29/17 07:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 7/2/17 06:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 7/11/17 02:10 am (UTC)The Eddisians, by the way. Ruwena, lass, did yu na' newtice, they-ur Scotts?
That's not entirely true, of course (though I do think of them with Claymores, sometimes). They are also the Swiss Pikeman, and the Spartans rolled up together, and the Saxons pushed into the hills by the Normans. They are everybody who has ever held the highlands, including the people Kim visited in the Himalayas in Kipling's stories. I do think of them speaking with a burr, though that may be because they are a broad chested race. I think that I said in THE THIEF (how embarrassing to be unsure AND too lazy to go check) that the underclass in Sounis and in Attolia drop their h's and swallow the ends of their words.
no subject
Date: 6/29/17 04:56 pm (UTC)As well as similarities between the central characters (oh, how I love my super-clever, super-competent schemers!), I've always seen strong similarities in the tricks played with narrative and point of view. Across the entire series, we only get Lymond's point of view for a few pages. He is the centrepoint of the whole thing, but he is seen almost entirely by other people, many of whom misunderstand him, some of whom are entirely biased against him. We have to piece Lymond together from the conflicting, and often wrong, reports of a variety of people.
It's similar with Eugenides. It's not exactly the same, of course, since we DO get his viewpoint right from the start - but it's a tricksy viewpoint, one that conceals the truth and forces us to read between the lines. From then on, we mostly see him through other eyes.
The King of Attolia is the one that reminds me most strongly of the Lymond Chronicles, though (and of the Niccolo series, too, I guess, but my memories of that series are a lot less clear.) As with some of the Lymond viewpoint characters, Costis initially dislikes and misunderstands the central character, and his narrative frequently makes confident - but false - statements about his motives. (Outsider viewpoint characters who initially misunderstand the hero: my other Favourite Thing in fiction. :-D)
Oh, and one tiny point: I have always read Sophos' thought that "he would have given Eugenides his heart on a toothpick, if asked," as a nod to Kate Somerville's thought, "I would give you my soul in a blackberry pie, and a knife to cut it with."
no subject
Date: 6/29/17 05:07 pm (UTC)And oh yes, the blackberry pie! Honestly, between the two, I think the blackberry pie is more emotive to me - not just my heart, but the means wherewith to hurt if hurt were needed. There are definitely some parallels between the very few characters who truly have a friend's view of Eugenides and Lymond and thereby have the reciprocating ability to take their hearts on a toothpick.
no subject
Date: 7/5/17 06:27 pm (UTC)As you said, it's not the plot itself that makes people love Lymond, but it's the way the story is told and the focus on Lymond as a character. I've just finished book 1 and am waiting to start book 2.
no subject
Date: 6/30/17 03:53 pm (UTC)I've always enjoyed how much both Dunnett and MWT trust the reader. They really don't cut you any slack. As someone else pointed out, King of Attolia is the one that reminds me most strongly of Dunnett (particularly GoK), as we're watching through a naive external character (Costis/Will)- who serves in some ways as a stand-in for the reader - as they work their way through a series of conflicting feelings of their brilliant leader. And of course, we know there's a complicated political endgame, and we suspect that neither Gen nor Lymond is as foolish/nasty as they seem, but it takes us a long time to realize what they're up to...
no subject
Date: 7/2/17 05:44 am (UTC)Haha - a handful of adjectives did come to mind. It seriously made me so happy that there's at least one person out there who loves both. I've wanted to bring it up a couple times in Dunnett discussion groups (Marzipan emails, etc.) and even recommended Queen's Thief to one or two other Dunnett fans, but never had much success. I think because it's scaled to a YA readership it's easier to miss that there are still many similarly nuanced scenes or layers of story and the authors both explore a lot of themes, play with POV, and subvert the 'what makes a hero' traditional trope.
I love the way you put it - they do both trust the reader: Megan in an 'I'm not telling' way, and Dunnett in an 'it's in there' way. I think that's another reason why it's a "specific sort of readership" as you said - the readers have to be willing to be 'trusted', and to be willing to plow through a good deal of 'why would you do that?' to get to those moments of intense satisfaction as a reader.
Now I feel like I need to read KoA again, as this last read-through I was more focused on close-up parallels rather than broad themes like POV and reader stand-ins like Will/Costis.
no subject
Date: 7/1/17 08:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 7/2/17 05:53 am (UTC)I'd seriously love to hear what you think or any questions that come up if you do give it a try! I'd even mail you my copy of the companion guide if it was something you wanted to try, although it is absolutely readable without because as was mentioned above, there are characters who are 'stand-ins' for the reader, and Lymond is a character that is meant to be approached through their eyes and their understanding, like a certain thief we all know.
no subject
Date: 7/5/17 03:40 pm (UTC)Testing spoiler cut here: this is a spoiler
no subject
Date: 7/5/17 04:25 pm (UTC)That ending with Richard and Lymond together!! It was absolutely perfect and the book built up so much to that point! I had a series of misgivings about Lymond because the evidence against him was so strong and he barely refuted it at all during the book. I was so relieved especially with the reveal that it was Andrew Harper who tried to murder Richard with the arrow, and was sending the jewels to Mariotta. The arrow, especially, seemed unforgivable, and I was trying to put it off as authorial license with Lymond’s abilities (like he was such an expert shot that he wouldn't kill him, but it seemed a stretch). So that was wiped clean by Sybilla’s confrontation with Andrew.
I never thought Lymond intentionally killed his sister. All the stuff in the past seemed like a lie, but the things of violence and vice we (readers) witnessed were the hardest against him, and I was delighted that in the end most of it turned out to be false too.
Here’s a question, though. Sybilla seemed to be aware of Lymond’s innocence (in the murder attempt, and how her house wasn’t actually burned, her silver stolen), but why did she let Richard believe such awful things when Richard was clearly ready to murder Lymond? Richard was gearing up for it the entire book so that their duel was completely believable, until their fateful interlude in the woods when Richard had a change of heart. But was there a good political reason why Richard had to hate Lymond, or was it all just a complicated family situation?
no subject
Date: 7/7/17 05:51 am (UTC)I have been mulling over this answer in my head for a couple of days now, because the full answer to your questions can only be explained in context of the series as a whole as character arcs complete and you get more and more of the whole story. I've been trying to sort through what I know in hindsight vs. what's apparent and answerable just from the first book which was initially written as a standalone story because I'd hate to ruin some of her fabulous satisfying endings and reveals with spoilers.
I hope it's okay, but I also asked these questions in a DD discussion group I'm part of as well because I was curious what lifelong, experienced readers would have to say. A few main points and my own impressions:
- Like Gen in TaT, much of what Lymond does to Richard (well, and vice versa) could reasonably be described as 'spite' because intense sibling rivalry is very much a factor here, but also like that scene in TaT, there is a world of motivation and complex history that is not easy to sort through and pin down into simple motivations.
- One of Lymond's ongoing traits is that he does a lot of things in an effort to protect those he loves or feels are worth protecting. In the beginning, Lymond hears that Richard himself is under suspicion because of Lymond's activities, and provides cover for Richard by making it abundantly clear that they are acting very separately and are even at odds.
- Because of Richard's complicated feelings toward his brother, he is perhaps quicker to believe his brother's guilt and feel betrayed by what happened to Louise, and is consistently a more direct and bull-headed individual than his remote, acerbic, delicately planning brother. I think his being told what was going on might have completely destroyed Lymond's carefully laid plans as he just hasn't play-acting temperament Lymond does.
- And again, with the sibling rivalry, there also seems to be some resentment on Richard's part toward Sybilla (which bleeds over onto Mariotta), who kind-of betrayed him as a mother (and woman) for her favorite Lymond's sake, so I think Richard simply wouldn't have been willing to listen to anything nice Sybilla had to say about Lymond or his motives.
- Sybilla is a favorite character, but she is also not perfect, and while she is brilliantly insightful, she has blind spots about some of her own weaknesses as well as some guilt about her own parental deficiencies (e.g. like Richard's perspective that Lymond has been the favored and more-loved son). I also think she's trying to push them together and knows that the only way they can better understand each other is through a rocky path and shared adversity.
- I think there's also an element of PTSD from the dramatic changes in Lymond's life after Louise dies and his slavery and suffering. Having had a good deal of time to think through the injustices in his life while on a galley, I think this is also an emotionally immature way of 'punching' his brother for not believing him or believing in him in the past.
- Lymond is also really quite young in this story, and emotionally immature while also being very physically and intellectually gifted and with a lot of resentment to spare.
Also, partially answered above, but yes, I think Lymond does let the 'villain' portrait stand because he doesn't know if he can clear his name, and when his own word wasn't enough to prove himself in the eyes of his father and brother (and seemingly Sybilla), he's unwilling to accept anything less than complete absolution and just doesn't think it's worth letting the mask slip until he's achieved his ends. Another DD reader also pointed out that he's portrayed as a nihilist, so it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about him or what he does because so far he's been a victim in some fairly catastrophic ways.
Finally, Dorothy Sayers does come up frequently in discussions, and I think I've heard a few fans who knew Dunnett say she had read Dorothy Sayers work as well. Another favorite series of mine (although I don't really emotionally relate to Harriet sometimes)!
no subject
Date: 7/7/17 10:01 pm (UTC)Much of what Lymond does to Richard (well, and vice versa) could reasonably be described as 'spite' because intense sibling rivalry is very much a factor here”
“I think Lymond does let the 'villain' portrait stand because he doesn't know if he can clear his name…he's unwilling to accept anything less than complete absolution.”
“He's portrayed as a nihilist, so it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about him or what he does because so far he's been a victim in some fairly catastrophic ways.”
Lymond does seem like an “all or nothing” kind of person.
I fully agree that Richard’s suspicion of Lymond would have hurt Lymond deeply, so he acts like, “you think I’m the black sheep of the family? Just watch to see how far I’ll go”. All the while knowing that his actions aren’t attributed to his family because of their public enmity. Perhaps that’s why Sybilla didn’t interfere in an obvious way. Though the book wasn’t clear to me what the repercussions would be to Lymond’s family if they were fully reconciled to him. I got the idea that Lymond was trying to help the Scotts without the Scotts knowing it, so that the English could pin a lot on himself. A martyr complex, perhaps?
Book 1 discussion
Date: 7/5/17 05:14 pm (UTC)I love how Dunnett unapologetically makes Lymond the dashing, irresistible, and mystifying hero, which I think it was she set out to do (as written in one of her forwards). I was reminded of the Scarlet Pimpernel and Lord Peter Whimsey as his most loquacious, both of whom are heroes that we like to admire, who puzzle and awe us, and who keep most people in their lives at an arm’s length.
Actually, I kept thinking “Dorothy Sayers must have read these books!” and then remembered that she died before they were written. So the other way around – perhaps Dorothy Dunnet read Sayers, because her compact story-telling method (laying clues that don’t come into play until 300 pages later) is like Sayer’s style, and her hero is charming and outrageous and spouts poetry in various languages.
(BTW, I could get a master’s in book discussion too!)
Re: Book 1 discussion
Date: 7/10/17 10:01 pm (UTC)Re: Book 1 discussion
Date: 7/11/17 07:57 pm (UTC)I am mid-way through Queen's Play. So excited to have discovered these books! Also, let me know what you think of the Winter Prince. I found it quite powerful. There are also 4 sequels, but they follow a different character for the most part.
Re: Book 1 discussion
Date: 8/22/17 11:32 pm (UTC)There was a little more sexual tension than I was really looking for in Winter Prince, but I did really enjoy the way Elizabeth Wein explored so many difficult topics in each of her books and how people deal with such extreme challenges. I quite enjoyed a different lens for viewing "Mordred" (it kinda makes me want to think through what a similar Malfoy story might be like :), and Medraut remained my favorite character for the entire series.
Is this another series MWT has said she's read or enjoyed? There were definitely some parallels, re: Telemakos, British highlands, bro-journeys, etc.
Re: Book 1 discussion
Date: 9/18/17 12:10 am (UTC)But actually, I am reading through the Lymond books (currently stalled in the middle of book 5), and book 4, Pawn in Frankencense, reminded me a LOT of E Wein's Aksumite world. A lot of beauty and savagery together. The end of Pawn in Frankencese was a gut punch that I still haven't gotten over (hence the stalling in book 5). The the worlds of both reminded me a little of Thick as Thieves, but MWT wrote with a gentler hand. And I'm glad for it.
So many thoughts on the Lymond books, so perhaps I will write more on them later. I can see where there are things reminiscent of the Queen's Thief books.
Re: Book 1 discussion
Date: 9/20/17 05:15 am (UTC)You make a fair point about DD's gut punches, especially PiF. I have to be honest, while I understand it's a critical part of Lymond's character arc, I skim through that particular book and read limited selections of the end. Readers in DD groups call that one of the 'throw the book at the wall' moments where you decide you'll never read the rest of the series. I just about gave up on the series my first time through at that point, and didn't especially enjoy Ringed Castle either. If it helps, it just occurred to me that Ringed Castle might be a tiny bit like reading Medraut's journal while he was being trained by his mother - his mind probably wasn't a particularly pleasant place at that point. I didn't really see it the first time, and thought at first that maybe DD got bored talking about Scotland and wanted to explore another interesting historical figure, but the whole setting of RC mirrors Lymond's emotional state after PiF. Readers in FB groups have talked about a lot of symbolism of some of the more confusing events in RC (like birds) that I still haven't picked up on myself as it's not my favorite of the series and I don't spend a lot of time sifting through it. I did love that one reader called this Lymond's goth phase - a war general in a frozen landscape with Slata Baba. What's not to love?
I concur - MWT's "gentler hand" is why her books are still my favorite. There is so much rich detail, hidden meaning, fascinating characterizations and exploration of human psychology in Dunnett's works, and I like them inordinately better 10 years down the road when I was ready to give them another try, but I'm not always looking for that kind of emotional trauma when reading. I can get what I love out of MWT's books (humor, zany plans, interesting 'hero' figures, hidden meaning, clever allusions, Greek 'mythology', ad infinitum) without feeling like my emotions have been pepper sprayed.
Re: Book 1 discussion
Date: 9/20/17 08:45 pm (UTC)It's amazing though that books can create such a real, visceral experience for the reader. That's where Dunnett excels in her storytelling. I do want to find out what happens to Lymond in the end, so I will keep reading forward.
Also, I'm glad you liked E. Wein's books so much!
no subject
Date: 7/7/17 02:21 am (UTC)On the other hand, I feel like MWT trusts her readers to pick up on information she DOES give, rather than expecting them to know all sorts of things not in the text. I'd say thats what I feel the big difference is, for me.
no subject
Date: 7/7/17 05:04 am (UTC)I think GoK is also similar to "The Thief" in that it was DD's first work, and she is definitely a younger, more enthusiastic writer in GoK. I've read that she spent a massive amount of time in libraries researching and gathering all of these literary references that fill the pages of GoK, resulting in the need for a companion guide. It is certainly a book I'll only reach for when I'm in the mood for a heavy, 'meaty' book requiring a lot of mental engagement and stopping to look up references or read up on Margaret Lennox for example. The rest of the series is much lighter in terms of classical and literary references - where in GoK I want to look references up just about every time Lymond opens his mouth, I might only turn to the companion guide a couple times per book through the rest of the series, and then only if I feel I want to stop and take the time to really get at the heart of what's being said or what's going on under the surface.
One thing that helped in my perception of GoK is when I realized that GoK can be read without the companion guide at all, because DD very deliberately uses the classical references and quotes offensively to put the reader in the same position as many of Lymond's peers - not always understanding what he's on about, not having been privileged to have (or interested in having) the same classical education, or understanding what he's saying but still thinking he's a high-strung little jerk (which is certainly part of his nature sometimes).
For the rest of the series, DD hones in on some key underlying threads in GoK and weaves them into a much larger tapestry, taking her characters to multiple major powers in the world at the time, and while each story is interesting in itself, the books all tend toward some major overarching themes and character progression/resolution, so it's hard to read one without committing to the rest of the books.
MWT is much nicer to her characters and to her readers, which is one reason why her books are still favorite. DD likes to explore themes that fascinate her, like the psychological and emotional effects of trauma and how different characters might respond to or overcome it, etc. which can make for some darker story lines, not to mention the story is set in actual history, and things like Turkish torture after defeating an enemy is not light reading. Some of what draws me to MWT's work is the allusions to favorite authors, periods of history, and the many hidden 'double entendres' she loves to play with. There are strong similar elements in DD's work, and rereading her series I enjoy the work of deciphering character motivation or finding foreshadowing phrases, so the work is rewarding to me when the mood strikes. I wasn't sure I liked the series either the first time I read it, but it has grown on me a good deal since then. That being said, DD isn't for everyone, so I think it really depends on what draws you to your favorite authors - if you find extremely complex and not your standard hero characters appealing, or layered meaning within a scene or sentence, or rich historical fiction, or exploring deep lows for an even more satisfying, compelling high, etc. give the rest of the series a try, or at least the next book. Thady Boy is a delightfully obnoxious rogue and you get a lot of heady, zany plans.
TL/DR: MWT is still my favorite, I wasn't sure if I liked the Lymond Chronicles my first time through, DD doesn't pull punches with her readers or her characters, history is fascinating but can be nasty and these are historical fiction books, and the remaining books contain much fewer classical references to wade through but are still set in literal historical events which still requires a certain level of knowledge to appreciate.
Dunnett/Turner reader here
Date: 7/7/17 08:25 pm (UTC)Re: Dunnett/Turner reader here
Date: 7/7/17 09:14 pm (UTC)Do you have any suggestions for Facebook groups you like? I've found several, but would love to connect with more MWT and DD fans.
Re: Dunnett/Turner reader here
Date: 7/9/17 03:21 am (UTC)Re: Dunnett/Turner reader here
Date: 7/10/17 05:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 7/7/17 08:35 pm (UTC)I feel like Dunnett is one of the authors like MWT to have a perfect grasp of the character dynamics of a story. Put a perfectly compelling character in the middle of the book and watch them. Elizabeth Wein does this with The Winter Prince, and Dorothy Sayers. It so cool to hear that MWT makes allusions to Dunnett, and I look forward to finding those!
no subject
Date: 7/12/17 03:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 7/17/17 03:19 am (UTC)I'm really so happy to hear that there is a lot of crossover - I've suggested each respective author to the other fandom on a couple of occasions, and apparently have just been in the wrong groups as no one I've spoken to has been interested or tried the other series and didn't like it. Le weep, le sorrow. Now I want to find other fans, and feel like I'm going to be a Despicable Me minion running around the interwebs looking for 'buddies'.