The meddling of the gods

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

SPOILERS AHOY

I'm wondering what everyone thinks of this book in comparison to the gods (or epic figures) present in TaT - I'm not sure how to untangle this!

One of the big questions I had after TaT was why two Medean immortal figures would help Kamet, since he was working against the empire, whereas Gen's gods literally betray him to save his country. Why would the Medean pick sides like that? I don't think that was addressed at all in this book, which seems to harken back to KoA: Gen gets answers - Gen gets rain - Gen gets lightning (he does get tortured in the process, let's not forget, and betrayed again) -

Where are Immakuk and Ennikar in all this? Have the Mede's gods abandoned them? (Have the Medes abandoned their gods first?)

And PS, I suppose: any opinions on why Pheris can see Moira when no one else can?

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I might be totally off base but I think the mede gods just might not need their empire to expand further. I don't know why they specifically chose to help kamet unless they saw something of themselves in the two of them?

Also probably off base but pheris's action near the end, where he reminds gen about what he had said earlier about the river? Oddly reminded me of the fable of the king and his friend who reminds him of his promise to never lie by moonlight. Of course the river scene kinda confused me, as did ladars prophecy, so if anyone can break that down for me that would be cool! I stayed up way too late reading lol

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, that’s a really interesting parallel (that whole story (and Phresine) was such an interesting moment) - I like!

It’s making me wonder if what Gen said to the guard was - a prophecy?! There’s a whole theme of Pheris catching things like that (“earrings”).

Ladar’s prophecy was true, but deliberately ambiguous, and could have meant one of many “tongueless” things - the hope being, I think (from someone who hated Gen), that he would assume it was Pheris when in fact Pheris was so vital to helping Gen win.

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

So I actually noticed this last read-through that there are actually a fair number of times Kamet says things like 'tapping my lips, I prayed the gods would speak through me, and began' or 'I could thank the gods the boat hadn't caught fire next to [other flammable things]'. I think there was even one similar to Gen's 'I sent up a quick prayer to the god of thieves'. Often, Immakuk/Ennikar appear fairly soon after one of these comments, or after Kamet has told another chapter of their epic/myth. My current speculation is that maybe these stories or phrases work as something of an invocation or summoning, that he draws the god's attention through is casual half-prayers and telling of their favorite story (= themselves). I think they're also willing to help someone escape slavery and forward the cause of another two companions on an epic scale like their own story.

If that's true, they wouldn't necessarily have appeared in this conflict or to the Medes because they weren't asked for in the same way as, say, summoning rain or lightning.

I still think there's a lot I haven't figured about why Pheris also can see the gods, and Moira especially (unless as the messenger of the gods she feels an affinity to this future recorder of men's fates as a historian) but he's really similar to Gen in a lot of ways and the veil certainly seems to be thin for him as well. Maybe it's because he doesn't speak verbally, i.e. they know he won't talk about it a ton? Maybe it's a bit of mercy because of his background? Maybe it's because he has a destiny to be a great historian and the gods need someone who can tell their story and really see what happened in this chapter of history.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

My current speculation is that maybe these stories or phrases work as something of an invocation or summoning, that he draws the god's attention through is casual half-prayers and telling of their favorite story

This is fascinating - I remember back in The Thief, when Gen mentioned that most people used the gods just for cursing, and he didn’t much believe himself - something like “first, I thought, I will see the gods walking the earth” - and he said it as an impossibility -

although Moira does appear to Attolia and the Medes, who certainly don’t believe at the time? Though that was ultimately to maneuver Gen into place as annux? Hmmmm.

There’s so much myth and storytelling - and variations, even in this series (I missed the magus a lot!) - that I’m not sure accuracy in storytelling could be the reason. Except maybe for Moira because of her role, I like that!

[cherryblosomjen.livejournal.com]

When Sejanus sees someone who looks like his (and Pherris') nursemaid, is there implication that she was a 'goddess'?

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

I took this to mean that the nursemaid, Melisande, had died and was appearing to warn Sejanus.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Immakuk and Ennikar are my favs, so this got long... :)

I assumed that Immakuk and Ennikar were Medean heroes when I first read TaT. However, the text never specifically states that they are Medean. Their epics are written in an older and, I assume, dead language (Ensur). I believe they are the gods/heroes of a country and culture that existed on the same land as the Mede Empire but predates their existence.

The Medes can't claim ownership over them; they merely retell their stories. Much like we still retell Greek and Roman myths and say their gods names and use their motifs in our everyday lives. (The planets, the constellations, our medical symbol is Mercury's wand, etc.)

Greek and Roman gods/heroes are a part of our culture, even though we are many generations and a continent removed from Ancient Greek and Ancient Rome. Thus, I don't feel that Immakuk and Ennikar would have any special loyalties to the Mede.

Nor do I believe that they have any loyalties to Attolia. Every one of the nudges Immakuk and Ennikar give Kamet is to push him towards Costis. Helping him out of the city, telling him to go back to the well. and in general preventing him from being captured. That is all to keep him with Costis, which just so happens to align with the best interests of Attolia.

Now, for why they are interested in Kamet specifically...? I'm not positive, but I think they took interest in him after he translated their stories into a language they hadn't been told in before. Honoring them by spreading their stories and their influence. I think they wanted to "thank" Kamet (he may not feel that way) by keeping him and Costis together. They clearly saw a reflection in Kamet and Costis of themselves and wanted them to become Wise Kamet and Brave Costis.

As for where they are in RoT... I feel that Immakuk and Ennikar were active off screen in helping to keep Costis and Kamet alive in RoT and together. Costis going back to save Kamet like he did is also reflective of the epics. Like I said before, I don't think they have any real interest in Attolia.

Regarding the PS: Pheris has a role to play in the Eddisian god's plans, and so I think they choose to reveal themselves to him much like they have to Gen and company. What I find interesting is that he seems to be able to see more than even Gen does. Maybe, he's special to them? He also takes their popping in and out in stride, which I found endearing. :) He's just like... gods wandering around... huh. XD

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

HI :D

I like this a lot - when reading TaT, I never drew a distinction between the pantheon of Little Peninsula gods and the epic figures Kamet talked about (maybe because the - selfish? self-centered? worship-adoring?! - behavior felt fairly similar? But this distinction makes a lot of sense to me.

I do wonder in general why only Gen's gods show up and meddle - do the Medes or the Braels or the Greater Continent in general have their own belief systems and their own prophecies, etc.?

[drollittle.livejournal.com]

I agree. The gods/immortals wouldn’t have loyalty to any country. Governments and empires come and go, gods would be above emperors and kings. But they help promote principles that they stand for. In the case of Gen and Irene, their gods also had a parental bond.

The meddling of the gods, SPOILERS

[janine ballard (from livejournal.com)]

Hi, first time posting here and great to meet you. I'm a huge fan of the series but have only lurked in this forum. I had to post in reply to what you said, ninedaysaqueen, because this was very close to my own interpretation.

I also think that Immakuk and Ennikar were not Mede (in fact I wondered if they might not be from Kamet's original culture--I forget what his specific background was but he was not born Mede, only enslaved by them) and that they took his fate to heart because he had such an appreciation for their story and had passed it on and preserved them in this way. And I've thought that they saw themselves reflected in Kamet and Costis's friendship and that this may have sparked their interest as well (since they are gods I imagine that they could have foreseen the possibility of such a friendship before it developed).

More generally in the series, I love the way the gods are portrayed and I see them as occasionally taking an interest in a person for that his / her / their personal qualities. I think Gen's cleverness, bravery and independent streak have caught the Eddisian pantheon's attention and that this is why they have favored him and even directed (I'm thinking of QoA) his fate. And of course the god Eugenides feels especially pleased with him because of the qualities they share, rather like Immakuk and Ennikar may be pleased by Kamet and Costis's camaraderie.

I think Pheris too is a favorite of the gods. How else to explain why he sees Moira at the temple and others do not? Or why he sees the furious goddess (Hephestia? Moira?) bar Gen from sending him away? The gods probably prevent Gen from sending Pheris away because they know Pheris has a crucial role to play, but that does not explain why he sees Moira in the temple so again I come back to that "individual favored by the gods" idea. It's a trope that can be found in many mythologies.

Clearly, Gen's gods have their eye on the fate of the Little Peninsula. But I'm not sure to what extent they are interested in Gen because he plays an important role in the peninsula's fate vs. being interested in the peninsula because they are first an foremost interested in Gen. I used to think it was the former but the more I read the books (and I have read them many times) the more I lean toward the latter. Particularly considering that the gods were removed from the dealings of Eddis, Attolia and Sounis for what seems like centuries before Gen turned up at their temple.

Re: The meddling of the gods, SPOILERS

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Hello, and welcome to Sounis! :D

I like the idea that Immakuk and Ennikar could have ties to Setra. They were both once human, so one of them could've been Setran.

I've been thinking about the Eddisian gods, and I think god!Eugenides felt indepted to Hamiathes, the first king of Eddis, because he convinced the river to put out the forest fire he started. We all know Hephestia is found of her brother, so she may've felt indepted too.

This could've resulted in this particular pantheon becoming invested in Eddis as a way to honor/thank Hamiathes.

[canonisrelative.livejournal.com]

I love this, thank you, you said much that I’ve had in mind for years and more (and much more eloquently than I would have.)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I'm just discovering this thread now. I don't have much to add to the many great thoughts already discussed, but I wondered if Moira, being a chronicler of people's fates, would be Pheris' goddess in a way similar to Eugenides being Gen's.

Which reminds me... [RotT spoilers!] Relius gives Pheris a set of four journals in which to write his histories (in volume 2, chapter 2). Maybe I'm reading into it, but... Four journals? And RotT consists of only the books of Pheris I and II? Does that potentially mean he wrote two more?

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

I think the gods want the little peninsula united, and the three countries becoming culturally that of Hephestia's chosen people again.

Since the Invaders came, the people of Sounis and Attolia were overrun, and in TT Gen tells all about the changes this wrought in their societies. They accepted the Invaders gods, and abandoned the old temples.

Only in Eddis did the old gods still hold sway. And Eddis is understood to be backwards and insular by the more "modern" Sounisians. This is partly true, because the country has had to be isolated to survive.

The magus comments that Eddis has been isolated too long when he promises to send more recent scrolls to Gen's library in Eddis (The Thief).

By the end of the series, Eddisian culture is influencing Attolia and Sounis. Eddisian writers come down to make fun of their brother the king, and the old gods are worshipped in the whole peninsula, as they used to be (and the new gods too).

The final scenes with the satyrs and old mythological figures dancing with the court of Attolia says it all to me.

I think this is why the gods forced Eddis to join with the other countries and want her people to move from the mountains. They would be able to share the old culture throughout the peninsula once again. Eddis and the old gods culture would not be lost to a single calamity like the ancient Cretes were lost to their earthquakes. They would be much more robust by being spread throughout the whole peninsula.

So I guess it's about the survival of a culture and (for the gods) their own survival as beings who are talked about and whose stores are told.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Oh, I absolutely agree with all this! I was having troubling figuring out how the Mede myths in TaT fit in with the Eddisian gods. At the end of TaT I was wondering if we were heading for some sort of Tamora Pierce-esque pantheon of competing gods who war with each other (unlikely, I know), or were Immakuk and Ennikar on the side of the Little Peninsula and Kamet (instead of the Mede emperor) and RotT just made no mention of it at all!

(Honestly I’m left with the impression that ACoK - much as I love Sophos - and TaT are bridge books, and the most inessential of the series, given how much is recapped in RotT and how much Kamet is sidelined, in the end...)

[kirsten davis (from livejournal.com)]

Wow, what a beautiful explanation for the interventions of the gods! I really love the idea that the Eddisians were isolated in their mountains to protect and preserve the culture and now are being sent out again to share it with everyone else. Thank you for sharing this!!

[some spoilers]

This idea could provide context to the dreams about the volcano erupting, which I felt were hyped up a bit (maybe just because of the cover) and then seemed to come to nothing. However, perhaps they were supposed to be more of an impetus to get the Eddisians out of the mountains rather than a literal prophecy (or perhaps the event is far in the future). I'm happier about this whole thread of the story if I think about it from the frame of the gods trying to disperse the culture.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Thank you! <3

Ok this is going to be a bit vague, but my take on it is:

The mountain exploding and Helen being told she's the last Eddis plays with a familiar theme to this kind of book which is the end of a people and the need to let go of "the old gods".

In The King Must Die, a retelling of the Theseus myth by Mary Renault, an earthquake ends the civilization in Crete. I think Atlantis also was supposed to have been ended by an earthquake or similar...
Now, many books of historical fiction that imagine pre-Christian religions deal with this issue. For instance, in The Eagle of the Ninth and some of the other books by Rosemary Sutcliffe, the people of pre-Roman "Britain" are being colonized by the romans and while Sutcliffe wants to take the side of the tribal culture she is pretty soft on the Romans in my opinion. In literature written about pre-Christian religions, there is often an idea that the "old gods" were barbaric and had to leave to make way for Christianity; because the writers are usually Christian. You definitely see this in things written after the Christianization of Europe about polytheistic religions. Pagan/oral epics like Beowulf etc get written down but with a negative slant on pagan influences.

Even Tolkein has a magical civilization that's fading away. Tolkein was influenced by Anglo-Saxon writings from after the Christianization of Europe, and he ended up using it more to talk about industrialization, so that's another topic. But the magic leaving is another trope in fantasy.

But the idea of civilizations and people who fade away or who must somehow leave the world is often used by colonial powers to justify their genocides of the people they colonize. It's a pernicious myth that still is used against various cultures who are still very much alive and withstanding ongoing colonization today (see: Native American tribes and First Nations who are referred to as in the past even though they're still very much alive).

I've never understood why Eddis had to "end" in some way, but I guess that's a question we could think about.

I did always relate it back to these tropes I've seen in other novels, and I think MWT ends up purposefully upending it. The magic very much does not die, and neither do the people who still know of the magic (or, the old gods). They are rejuvenated instead. So it's definitely an anti-colonilialism book.

In some books like The King Must Die, I think the culture is supposed to be stagnant or somehow not good and that's why the gods smash it with earthquakes (it's been ages since I read that book so I don't remember too much. they were too peaceloving or something? i forget. the Cretans had running water and great art and no depictions of war in their frescos. oh, and Gryfons on either side of their throne!).

Anyway, I think the gods were threatening Eddis with destruction and she had to move everyone to avoid becoming Pompeii or Crete. Why they wanted her to join with Sounis and Eddis is up for discussion. There are things about Eddisian culture that seem to need updating or reforming, according to Helen's reforms, but we don't know how the gods feel about such things. She threw the Stone into the fire. I expected the gods to withdraw, but the end was triumphantly the opposite! So I would say their own survival as gods whose stories are told probably depended on it.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

And just to build on this, I remember in QoA at the end, the goddess says that nothing mortals make lasts forever, nothing the gods make endures forever. So, there is a volcano about to erupt, killing their chosen people and not even the gods can stop it. Best they can do is manipulate the people to get everyone out of Eddis. And I love everyone's interpretation that it was also a way of spreading worship of the old gods throughout the entire peninsula.

[kirsten davis (from livejournal.com)]

I somehow missed this comment earlier, but I see what you are saying with the anti-colonialism theme and I really like that interpretation.

Thanks for sharing all the history and background on the topic! It connects clearly with other books I've read and I can see that trope now that you pointed it out (especially in The Mists of Avalon, where the story is all about pagan religion being driven out by Christianity).

[canonisrelative.livejournal.com]

So I guess it's about the survival of a culture and (for the gods) their own survival as beings who are talked about and whose stores are told.

Genius. If the gods only survive as long as they are worshipped by their people, the destruction of Eddis would have meant the end of their gods, as well. Symbiosis.