Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

#1 -- the most obvious danger is that she has just had confirmation that it was Eugenides who stole the magus and burned Sounis's navy. If he can do that to Sounis, what might he do to her? (the secondary meaning of the danger of making her jealous is just icing on the cake, I think, and not conscious on her part at all)
#2 -- yeah, how DARE he not kill her, as she was expecting? But she takes this as some sort of insult, I think, or just as him taking unfair advantage of her surprise
#3 -- oh yes, after the way she watched him in the battle, I think she's definitely preferring him to the Mede here, even if she hasn't firmly put plans in place.
#4 -- she's amused because it's a funny line. "What will you do now?" "Grovel" is a funny answer, and not one that most people would give, even if they did intend to grovel. (By the way, I must have a different edition -- page numbers all different)
So...I don't think she realizes consciously that she loves him in here. What she comes to realize is that, if her two options are Nahuseresh and Eugenides, she'll take Eugenides. I think the key scene is her watching the battle, Gen's skill and courage and the way he handles himself vs. the Mede not getting himself dirty but being all smug and patronizing. But I agree the kiss may have shocked her into paying closer attention.

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1. Clearly, I am an idiot for having not realized that before. It's always been a bit confusing to me (oh, Somewhere over the Rainbow just came on! Focus, Jade--), because I always read it like she had been dreaming about him and his relationship with Eddis made her upset and she couldn't figure out why. But...your primary explanation makes lots of sense.

2. LOL. I thought the unfair advantage bit as well, but...hey, Gen can surprise me with a kiss any day.

4. Well, yes. I mostly put that there (though that's the quote where this post first came from) because I love it so much--she doesn't want to like him at all, and while he might make an okay king, she's only considering that from an abstract point, whereas she still firmly resents him as a person--and yet he amuses her.

I never even thought about that battle comparison, but it makes a ton of sense. Nice reading! (such a weird compliment, o_O) *adopts this view as her own*

heh heh, the kiss...oh, that kiss...*pets it as the only kiss they had for six long years*

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Except for "And she believed him." In my mind, that was always a kiss.

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karatelunch.livejournal.com

Oh! I never thought of that as a kiss! That's a lovely image.

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willow-41z.livejournal.com

1. That her spies were mistaken that Eugenides is now useless. He's very much still a threat to Sounis and her, contrary to reports.

1a. She is definitely jealous here, even if she doesn't know it.

2. Well, of course she's livid with fury. He's a young goatfoot who has the temerity to present himself as a marriage prospect for her, even though she thinks the idea is preposterous, and now he's had the temerity to kiss her without her permission. She's the ice queen, she usually doesn't have to deal with men's advances if she doesn't want to, especially with those of insane men whom she maimed but who still inexplicably appear to be interested.

3. I think she's taunting him like he'd taunted her, but also think she may be thinking of keeping her word. I wonder when she decided to oppose the Medes? That might be a question for the letter. There is this exchange:

"Maybe [the gods] have made a treaty, an example to us all." [Nahuseresh said.]

The queen smiled again. "Perhaps they have," she said.

I think at this point she's already contemplating it, because of her reaction when Nahuseresh mentions the gods (she stiffens). She knows they betrayed Eugenides.

Then there's: "She could see that he had no expectations of mercy from her. No hope that she would be something other than ruthless and cruel."

I think this bothers her.

And when Nahuseresh tells Attolia about the messenger, she realizes that the gods are indeed trying to bring something about. Only at the end, she is still angry with them, so I think she thinks they are trying to favor Nahuseresh. Or does she realize that they are "using" her and Eugenides? Moira is one of his gods, yet she is still working against Eugenides, as it seems. Yet she would have the best interests of Eddis at heart. I think this makes Attolia think.

And it's interesting that the MoW, presumably one of the people most knowledgeable about the army, says to attack because Eugenides said to-- Gen, who eschewed a career in the army. His father is not blind to his talents.

When does Attolia recognize the MoW? This must be near the point where she definitely decides to ally with the Eddisians. Does she figure it out then, when she sees him, or later? She sees him move away from Gen after the Medes attack, but says nothing.

"He's the captain of my personal guard. He's supposed to guard my person." That line has always been funny to me.

He turned slowly, like a defective clockwork... (Stenides!)

"I will have my sovereignty," Attolia said thinly. (When does she change her mind, or is she lying to him even now? When does she decide she wants Gen as true king?)

Was the guard captain who stopped Eddis and called her young man Teleus? If so, wouldn't he have been named? Is he just the captain of the guard at Ephrata?

4. Perhaps that he's bandying words even when he faces certain torture and death? That he's no longer polite and remote as he had been? I don't know. She was amused, when he was groveling, that he pledged his word.

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estarria.livejournal.com

Well, I always sort of assumed that she didn't realize she loved him until she thought he was dead in the prison at Ephrata, because she essentially says that near the end of the book...

"Love I am not familiar with. I didn't recognize that feeling until I thought I had lost you in Ephrata."

Also, the prison scene is where we first see her admit her love for Eugenides in her own head. (at least, as far as I can recall)

"How cruel of the gods...to send her a boy she would love without realizing it."

3.) Yeah, I think she'd already decided it was time to ditch Nahuseresh. She'd known it was only a matter of time before he outlived his usefulness anyway. Also, why would she have told Eugenides "where there's life there's hope" if she intended to kill him?

I've wondered when she decided he should be a real, sovereign king as well...my impression during all of QoA was that she would still be The Queen after they got married.

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estarria.livejournal.com

especially with [the advances] of insane men whom she maimed but who still inexplicably appear to be interested

That made me laugh. :) Well phrased.

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2. Agree with the LOL on the phrasing here.

3. That is a good question as well--though I suspect she's opposed them from the beginning, knowing what would happen, and she was just milking them for all the money she could get while trying to figure out how to get rid of them permanently.

I think this bothers her. Agreed.

I always thought she recognized him at "Only once did [the chamberlain] falter, looking over his shoulder.
'He said he wouldn't be here,' one of the ministers said in a carrying whisper..."
obviously the MoW is the poker-faced guy, and I always thought she either recognized him, or the chamberlain flat-out introduced him. MWT very clearly doesn't tell us who is being introduced, so that the reader might not know it's the MoW, but Attolia knows.

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She admits it in her own head; she knows for sure, I think; but I think there must have come a point beforehand when she realized that somehow there was something about the Thief that atrracted her. Beyond just the ability to cry for him when she couldn't cry for herself (inner!fangirl!Jade pauses to SQUEE over this again).

That is a good question...

also, icon love!

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She admits it in her own head; she knows for sure, I think; but I think there must have come a point beforehand when she realized that somehow there was something about the Thief that atrracted her. Beyond just the ability to cry for him when she couldn't cry for herself (inner!fangirl!Jade pauses to SQUEE over this again).

What always made the scene where Attolia realises she loves him when she thinks she's lost him, so poignant for me, was that I really did think it was a huge epiphany for her. I don't think she'd had any inkling at all before this that she was in any way attracted to Gen.

But then, I think this is one of those things that everyone could read differently, and with equal validity. :)

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willow-41z.livejournal.com

I love your icon :D Sounis people always have the best icons.

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I think her realization that Gen should be a real king comes shortly after the ending of QoA. Attolia has several steps to take in accepting Gen as her husband. First, she agrees to marry him because she thinks she has no choice. Then she decides she's willing to marry him (battle scene?). When she thinks he's dead she realizes she loves him, but she is still terrified that he'll find out and use her love against her, because she doesn't believe he loves her. What could be more terrifying to her than to have a husband she secretly adores who is plotting her downfall? I love that whole agonizing courtship bit in QoA when they're dining and dancing and getting nowhere because she's so desperate for him not to know she loves him that she's still trying to keep him afraid of her (that comes back to bite her in KoA when she realizes he'll always be a little afraid of her and she wishes he weren't). Then she's finally humbled by the gods and fear for Gen's life, and she's able to accept his love. With that acceptance comes trust that he isn't planning to work against her.
So after that (this part I'm imagining) he's assuring her that she shouldn't worry about losing her power, he really meant it when he said he'd be a figurehead. And now that her vision is no longer clouded by the fear and distrust, she begins to think through what will happen in her court if she has a figurehead king. First, the barons will be clamoring to control him, and it will be a political nightmare. Second, Eugenides's obvious(to her) and considerable talents will be wasted. I think Attolia is simply very logical once she's no longer afraid.

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Uh, no, Jade, it says right out that the poker-faced guy is the chamberlain. The MoW is the one who "wouldn't be there," the older man who helps her off the horse and gives her that moment of panic when she's physically in his power (I love that bit). She says then that he looks oddly familiar. I think she knows who is he once she sees him and Eugenides working together in the battle.
I really do think the battle scene is absolutely key to Attolia's decisions. I love that scene, because it's all described through her eyes, and it's clear that she's watching Eugenides closely the whole time. I feel her anxiety and her admiration for him, even though she doesn't admit either of these outright. And when the Mede shows up and he's so condescending, it's a big contrast both to Eugenides's battle courage and his manner toward her. Eugenides may insult her, but he at least does her the justice of realizing how intelligent and capable she is.
I also think that after her outraged shock at his kiss wears off, the memory of his touch is...not that bad.

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emerald-happy.livejournal.com

Wow. That's amazing, Philia. I understand it all so much better now. Go steal Gen's cookie *points to icon, offers cookies*

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emerald-happy.livejournal.com

*hearts duct tape*

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emerald-happy.livejournal.com

"He's the captain of my personal guard. He's supposed to guard my person." I've always laughed at that line too. It's so matter-of-fact.

I am always reminded of Stenides too!

I thought it was Teleus. Sometimes he's referred to as just "captain of the guard".

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And back to the "are they consummated" question. I'm not sure they have, at least not until after the fall of Erondites, and maybe not until the night after the book ends.

They are both strong-willed people who will forgo a great deal of personal satisfaction and happiness in pursuit of their larger goals. She wants him to be king, she made her case on the wedding night and we know everyone ended up in tears. She is trying everything in her power to get him to be king, and witholding the marriage bed, so to speak, would be a powerful inducement to a young man.

Also, she is nothing if not a pragmatic queen. What happens to her country if she is pregnant queen, possibly incapacitated for some length of time, and she has a court filled with power-hungry, rebellious barons, figure-head king who won't assert himself, and the Mede empire watching and waiting for the right moment for revenge.... I don't think she could risk it.

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Oh, bloody, I knew that. I just missed that line when I was rereading. You're right.

I still stand by the fact that he was introduced with the rest of the officers. But I do like the scene where he's helping her off the horse--especially knowing that he would probably be just as happy to kill her, knowing that his son wants to marry her.

(Another question: when did Gen mention to everyone "oh, this isn't just a plan for the stability of the nations, I'm actually in love with her?")

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And I think he wasn't introduced because he wasn't there during that scene.
(Not ready to tackle other question yet!)

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I don't think she knew how to name it as love, or had any inkling that it was love...but there was something.

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Whoa. Very, very interesting. I will have to revoke my "of course" from the earlier post while I ponder that one...

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Oh, what the heck, maybe I'll tackle it after all. I think the MoW wants to kill her simply because she cut off his son's hand, not because Gen's in love with her, which he may or may not know. I don't think Gen EVER mentioned to everyone that he loved Attolia. I can't imagine him doing that. I think Eddis guessed (she does that), and maybe MoW guessed, too.

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Those are some very interesting points. There is the heir issue of course - and without Gen asserting authority, it's possible that she simply can't afford to be pregnant.

I'm going to have to do the same as Philia, and think about that.

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(In my case because this Sounis person has very few qualms about stealing other people's icons).

*also hearts your duct tape*

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