Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

*Grins* Get reading, it's a fantastic book. I can't wait to hear your thoughts. (I'll just stick the second, more spoiler-ish half of this post behind a cut then)

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I don't know how to link to our discussion thread, so I'll copy and paste my guess as to the meaning of the temple.

We talked about this in the chat and, *ahem* here's my take on this. Gen went to the temple to ask, "who should rule Attolia--me, or the queen? Signed, Attolis." The priestess just ripped it in half and gave him the part that said, "Attolis" and told him, "here is your answer." He was furious because he couldn't even consult the goddess himself. He went back to his room and cried tears of homesickness. But, I think he was also upset because he had then been told TWICE by the gods that he was meant to rule.

Remember when he said, "heads you rule, lilies I do" and the coin came up lilies over and over? He didn't want to rule, but he knew by then that the gods meant for him to. And, I think that's why Irene was not upset at the idea of his ruling and his resistence to it. She must have known that it was destined by the gods that he WOULD rule and that he would have to in the end.

And I was very surprised by the change in Irene from the other books. She was tender, although she still had her dangerous moments. I can only guess that Gen's love brought out the best in her. And she completely trusted him; she never seemed to doubt his opinion or his motives. I expected the book to include "trust issues" between the two of them, although I'm glad for their sakes that they were able to begin to repair the damage to themselves that their pasts had done.

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That makes perfect sense! Of course, that's why he looked so sick. Thanks Checkers!

Irene was a lot more tender, as she said perhaps: 'Lo, the power of Love'. :)

I liked the fact that most of the emotional issues which they encountered were due to wanting to protect each other. I felt a bit like the attendants , who were surprised at how easily he talked about his hand but didn't want Irene to know his anger because of it.

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fabricalchemist.livejournal.com

He's pissed off that he's not in charge of his own life, I think. He doesn't want to be the king, but he doesn't have a choice...and for someone as independent as Gen, that's gotta rankle more than a little.

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dannybailey.livejournal.com

Wow, that makes so much sense! I didn't comprehend the scene in the temple, particularly not to have such a significant meaning. Still, that is really clever; I can definitely see how it all fits together.

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This ties in with my question on the main page. If no one gets the point of the visit to the temple, was it written in a way that is a bit too obscure? Do you want the majority of your readers missing a rather important part of the rationale behind how the characters behave? We know these books as well as anyone, and even we have difficulty understanding.

I feel funny saying that knowing MWT may read our posts. Not criticism! Just discussion fodder!

As for the story, maybe Gen was uncomfortable because the king was breaking his oath to the gods and he was worried his gods would know that he didn't want what they'd given him--to rule Attolia. And Costis, as did the slave in the story, forced the king to keep his word, not by hitting him with an amphora, but by making him spar. Although, to my knowledge, Gen never made any promises to the gods.

Other comments? I'm sort of at a loss, too.

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ferris-girl.livejournal.com

I understood what the whole Temple Passage meant, But it took me a long time to realize that Attolis was the name of the King. Which is interesting. I think I'll post a question about it.

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I think that the obscurity in places lies behind the fact that this book once again, is one to be re-read. I re-read the first half ths morning, and a lot of things became more clear, so I think that things like the point behind the visit to the temple do make more sense in time. It's just another part of making the book last so long.

The connection in terms of the God's role and the story became slightly more clear when I re-read that part. But I hit upon the same barrier as you did, Gen never made any promises to the Gods. But then again, wasn't it Costis who was stuck trying to figure everyone out, talking about how different everything was from the well laid out patterns of a fireside story? That seems to hint that a lot of KoA is meant to be obscure.

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cyberskiver.livejournal.com

Eugenides probably had to swear some kind of oath when he became king, so that might be the promise he made to the gods.

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That's a good point.

And you've reminded me of something else. We were speculating on this comm before KoA came out about how Gen's relationship with Eddis (the country) might change when he became King of Attolia. That was highlighted in the book, Gen is now a former Thief of Eddis, and Helen implied that he might have to make descisions against Eddis (or herself) no matter how much he loves her. This was because he hadn't sworn any oaths to her. However, she mentioned that Gen did swear oaths to Eddis. These would still stand, wouldn't they? So does Gen now have to act in consideration of both Eddis and Attolia's interests?

Another interesting point in the book was the way that the Magus noted that historically, no one in Eddis speaks of the Thief. What do you guys make of that?

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Yeah, I thought that was very weird , that no one speaks of Gen in Eddis. I dunno, maybe they see him as forsaking them for Attolia? I thougtht that the Eddisians would either be gloating that they have one up on Attolia, or seceretly happy that Gen was now Attolia's problem.

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:D The only problem with that is that wasn't it mentioned that it was a historical thing? So not about gen himself, but rather all the Thieves of Eddis. I think it started when the Magus claimed he couldn't find any information on them in the library, and Helen said that that was because it was a long standing (as in, for generations and generations) taboo, nobody ever talked about the duties of the Thief. I think the Eddisians probably ertain their quiet faith and amusement, and even pride in Gen. They regarded him as a hero of sorts, didn't they? They probably still have expectations for him. Or mabe they're angry that he's now an Attolian, more or less.

:D I think I might have to ask this one in the letter too.

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Considering Gen was picked and trained directly by his grandfather to be his grandfather's heir, it makes sense for nobody to talk about the thieves right?, since nobody knows anything about them because the knowledge/training/history is passed from current thief to future thief. Plus, in QofA Gen mentioned that there were drawings, blueprints? to Sounis's megaron and that he had moved them out of the library when the Magus came to stay...nobody but Gen knew about the drawings.

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Alright, I have another question which I just thought of. What do you guys think is going to happen in terms of Sounis, and Sophos?

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Part of me would like to see Eddis have a story of her very own. I like her very much.

I'm only guessing, but I feel certain Sophos will reappear in time to save her from a marriage to that nasty dude Sounis. In the past she refused to marry him. Why would she change her mind now? Gen used to be adamant that she not, but now he seemed almost to accept the idea. With the war over, she shouldn't have to, should she? Unless, with her thief gone, she is in danger from him...

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I agree Checkers! She's certainly an interesting character, her early life sounds like there's a lot to be told. At the same time, I'd like to see stories for most of the characters, especially the Magus.

I can't remember how Sophos was initially mentioned in the book, and how the details of his situation were put, but what I remember was that everyone thought he'd been taken hostage by some rebels, and when Sounis was retaking and the rebels didn't use Sophos to bargain, everyone assumed that he was dead. I'd suggest that Sophos was actually leading the rebels, but we didn't really see much in the way of leadership skills in 'The Thief'.

I'm pretty sure the Magus said he would see Helen marry Sounis because of the threat of the Mede. It's like Attolia said, they have to be united (both between countries, and within countries) to face the threat or they'll lose. In the past the threat wasn't so immediate. That's why she'll have to marry Sounis, to unite the countries so that when the Mede come (as we know they're preparing to do) they won't be over run.

But if Sounis is treating with the Mede that'd change things. Oh, I have another question now, what do you guys think of Helen's relationship with the Magus? They've certainly grown close. I think he would rather be serving her, but prefers his 'nice warm country'.

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cyberskiver.livejournal.com

When I read the two scenes with Eddis and the magus, I wondered if they might come to love each other. It may be wishful thinking on my part, but it would be nicely ironic.

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Yes! I wondered that, too. I'd like Eddis and Sophos to get together, though. But we have to find someone for the Magus...hmmm, how old is Phresine?

In another thread, I said maybe Sophos has disappeared on his own and has become someone quite different from the naive chatterbox he was. Maybe he has hidden himself and will surprise us all.

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Whoo! Hven't been here in a while, and this place exploded!
Anyway, I'm so glad you liked it, Rowana! It is really just as good as the other ones.
lol Yeah, we gotta find someone for the Magnus, hes like all alone.And I think that Sophos is definetly alive, just bidding his time before he comes out in the open.
-Caroline *whose trying to get caught up with events going on here*

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Somehow, I can't see the Magus and Phresine together. :D Helen and the Magus though, that would be nicely ironic. And probably quite a beautiful relationship. If only the Magus could inherit Sounis. But probably wishful thinking, as

cyberskiver said.

That's another idea about Sophos. Deep down, I'm pretty sure that he's dead, but I don't want him to be! We can hope. :)

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NO!!

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cherryblosomjen.livejournal.com

That's another idea about Sophos. Deep down, I'm pretty sure that he's dead...

*gasp* That would be unacceptable! [Makes a face] :(

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total hopeful-fan hypothetical here: what if Gen takes over Eddis, in the interest of the country as per his oaths, and the Magus works for Gen as an advisor, since Attolia is a "nice warm country"?

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That would be perfect for the Magus, but what about Helen? I really like her as Queen of Eddis. *is being whiny* :) But yes, it would fulfil the king of kings prediction.

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Maybe Gen could have her be the administer of Eddis...after all, he can't administer that much land all by himself. He has his hands full with the Attolian barons.

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:) I don't know if you've read the Disney Article that fabricalchemist posted a while ago (the link's expired now), but as far as I remember, a part of the story concerned Helen's birthright, and the insult at the suggestion that Gen's branch of the family would ever deny her that. So, I think to have Helen working under Gen would just be too strange. For me.

But hey, it's your idea. If you like it, and think it'd work, don't let me ruin it. :)

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sunbeamchica.livejournal.com

I'm still puzzled by a few things (and would be grateful if anyone can answer), such as the message at the temple. Phresine's story as well, though I'm beginning to understand how it related to Costis, in terms of being the slave and making a choice, I don't understand why Gen was so distressed. The fact that Gen really is the King of Attolia has also hit home, and Helen's discussion with the Magus about Gen perhaps having to sacrifice favouring the people he loves, for the good of a nation.

hmmm...in regards to the story Phresine tells Gen, I thought the goddess in her story was supposed to represent Irene. I don't think Gen made any *huge* promises to one of the goddesses since QOA and Phresine probably wouldn't have known which gods/goddesses that Gen worships in the first place. I think it was Phresines way to gently remind Gen that he needs cherish and love Irene and not fail her. Gen seemed most uncomfortable during the parts of the story where the main character almosts fails in his promise to the goddess, so in a sense Gen wouldn't want to somehow fail Irene either. Does that make any sense?

from,
Jessica

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That actually DOES make alot of sense! I, for one was totally lost on that story, I think I need to re-read it. Again. I 'll definetly do so with your explanation in mind, Jessica!

About the message in the temple, I think checkers explained it really well on another thread, but I'll attempt tp paraphrase:

Basically, Gen went to the temple with a message for the gods, to the effect of "Who should rule Attolia, me or Irene, signed Attolis" or even something like "Who am I really; Eugenides or Attolis", and the priestess ripped it in half and gave him the part that said "Attolis" by way of an answer. So poor Gen was all upset , having been told by the Gods twice in the same day (the "lillies I rule" thing where the gods made it always land on lillies)that he needed to be king.
Hope that makes sense!

Another question: how did Gen know that Baron was ripping off the treasury?

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Haha! Just noticed the temple question was already answered on this thread! So sorry guys, I'll pay more attention from now on, lol

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He somehow knew by the type of wheat.

The Baron was claiming to have grown a certain type of wheat and a certain amount, and everyone accepted that. Then, when Eugenides had those men talking to him about the wheat, he asked, "what are the different types of wheat you keep talking about?" They brought in that old guy who piled the samples on the table (funny scene) and Gen realized that the Baron had to be lying about what he was growing and figured out, somehow, that he was cheating on his taxes.

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