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queensthiefAttolia refuses to believe Gen truly loves her, because of his reputation for telling lies. I was thinking about this, and I cannot recall a single instance in Queen of Attolia where Gen actually tells a lie. Or even in Thief, where he actually tells someone an out and out lie. He is a master at leading people to false conclusions, and he planted the false document about his history in Thief, but does he actually tell any lies?
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Date: 6/12/07 03:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/12/07 03:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/12/07 03:12 pm (UTC)Hmm, now I'm curious too.
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Date: 6/12/07 03:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/12/07 03:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/12/07 03:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/12/07 03:56 pm (UTC)about Gen's lies: (kinda meant to stick this in above because i had a nice little connection to make, but i've forgotten it :P) for everything important, he stays very, very, close to the truth, and his lies can become very complicated and show us what a genius he really is. but occasionally, he just flat out lies, and many times we see that soon enough and it's no big deal, like Philia mentioned, when he said he was going straight to bed. ...of course, Philia said this whole little rambling bit much better and in many less words anyway :P
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Date: 6/12/07 04:02 pm (UTC)And when he does lie, really tells a flat out lie, you know he's lying (just like Eddis said you would).
* My trains of thought are generally derailed en route, as well *
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Date: 6/12/07 11:03 pm (UTC)She said she'd often thought his lies were TRUE, but that she would never mistake one of his TRUTHS for a LIE, because he had a way, when it was really important, of letting you know it was the truth.
So if he was lying, you wouldn't be able to tell, but if he was telling the truth you would (assuming it was important enough).
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Date: 6/13/07 03:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/12/07 04:34 pm (UTC)I do think that, although Gen rarely out-and-out lies, he shows a willingness to lie that makes people distrust him. Especially when he's in a difficult place -- he'll say anything to get out of it. He was taught this early by those cousins who held him in the rainbarrel until he said insulting things about his family. The lesson was, say what you need to say, whether it's true or not.
So I think Attolia has reason to disbelieve him, even above her own doubts about her lovable-ness. If Gen didn't love her, but thought that saying he did would get him out of being tortured, you can bet he'd say it.
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Date: 6/12/07 04:41 pm (UTC)I don't agree, but I can see your argument.
If that were indeed the case, he could have agreed to serve Attolia at the end of Thief while keeping his fingers crossed behind his back, that is, with idea of re-nigging on his word. His word is his bond.
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Date: 6/12/07 04:43 pm (UTC)I think he'd have said absolutely anything if it would have kept Attolia from cutting his hand off.
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Date: 6/12/07 07:32 pm (UTC)I think that (as usual) you hit the nail on the head here. It doesn't matter how much he lies--because he's lied before, and he's never repented. Heck, he probably doesn't even need to lie as much as he used to--but he's built up the reputation for it.
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Date: 6/12/07 08:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/12/07 08:54 pm (UTC)Also, deceit is more than out-and-out lies. As long as you're purposely trying to mislead someone, you're being deceitful, and people have a reason to distrust you. In fact, as someone mentioned earlier, the best liars are the ones who stay as close to the truth as possible, but twist it to their advantage. Because of this, Attolia is right to distrust Gen, especially since she doesn't know him as well as Eddis. Maybe he's not out-and-out lying to her when he says he loves her, but that doesn't mean he's not still trying to deceive her. What does he mean by "love"?
Gen's propensity to lie, coupled with her own unwillingness to be vulnerable and trusting enough to believe someone could really love her and to love them in return would make it very difficult for Attolia to believe Gen.
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Date: 6/12/07 10:05 pm (UTC)I was thinking of what is revealed of him in 'The Thief', to both the reader and the rest of the characters - that his father wanted him to be a soldier, that his mother dies when he was ten, that he has an older brother who's a watchmaker. All true - and yet, I think Gen almost enjoys misleading them in this way. Each time he tells them a truth and they take it the wrong way because of his appearance and put-on accent, and come no closer to realising who he really is, I can't see how he couldn't be enjoying it (and I don't blame him). He certainly does seem to enjoy the vindication at the end as much as the reader does.
Perhaps it's just that he uses more than words for the big lies. His unwillingness to 'reveal himself' in KoA for example, and the way the truth was exposed in a sword fight.
I think I'm starting to repeat what everyone else has said, except with more words, and should head to bed. Thank you for a wonderful question Peggy!
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Date: 6/13/07 12:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/13/07 01:49 am (UTC)Kit
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Date: 6/13/07 04:35 am (UTC)...*claws at the AU bunnies, trying to get them out of her head*
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Date: 6/13/07 07:53 pm (UTC)Mostly because, if we're having the same train of thought, I see it about like this:
Attolia: Great, so now you're my Thief. Stay over here in this corner and wait until I tell you to steal something.
Gen: *tries to form a relationship with Attolia in hopes of becoming her lover*
Attolia: Go away! Stop stalking me! GO AWAY!!
Gen: *follows her around* I like you. You're pretty. Be nice to me?
Attolia: *flies off the handle and probably kills him in a fit of rage*
... Or something. XD
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Date: 6/13/07 08:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/14/07 04:05 am (UTC)And lots of angsty false-flirtatious foreplay, too...no subject
Date: 6/14/07 04:06 am (UTC)Aw man, that hit me just right--made me want to cry. 'cause that's just what he DOES in the beginning of QoA. *sniffles*
Hm, yes, death. O MAN AND IF IT ENDED IN DEATH THEN THERE WOULD PROBABLY BE A LOT OF POST-DEATH ANGSTING FOR POOR ATTOLIA.
yes, precious, we like the AUs, don't we, preciousssssss...*demonic possessed look*
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Date: 6/15/07 04:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/13/07 08:50 pm (UTC)In KoA the moon goddess kept her promise to the letter, maybe even going out of her way to keep the prince from telling a lie.
I always assumed he was comparing himself to another famous liar, but maybe not?
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Date: 6/13/07 09:39 pm (UTC)I think this is yet another instance of Gen creating a false persona (like his lack of fighting ability) and having it come back and bite him in the butt.
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Date: 6/14/07 04:04 am (UTC)I agree with the false persona thing completely. :-)
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Date: 6/14/07 12:12 am (UTC)The moon's "promises" may just refer to the fact that a full moon looks as if it will always be full and round, yet it waxes and wanes and rises at a different time every night.
Of course the appearance of the moon is very consistent and predictable, really, but it changes night to night.
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Date: 6/14/07 02:09 pm (UTC)I think I could argue that Gen is also consistent and therefore predictable, only he changes his methods of sneakiness, but I'm not sure how...
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Date: 6/14/07 04:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/15/07 04:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 6/15/07 04:42 pm (UTC)lying
Date: 6/16/07 10:07 pm (UTC)Gen's "lies" are more like secrets than out-and-out lies - personas, motives that he won't share, paths to outcomes no one else has even thought of (except maybe Eddis, at least she catches on to him fast).
Who else would take it upon himself to undermine and thus brilliantly redirect Attolia's entire brutal system of justice? He may not always be able to direct events, but his goal is so clear to him that he can turn almost any event to his advantage. (Though thank God for those earrings,how else could Irene have accepted his proposal!)
Re: lying
Date: 6/18/07 03:34 am (UTC)*hearts Gen* :-)
Welcome! Very good observations, and thanks for commenting!
Re: lying
Date: 6/18/07 04:09 pm (UTC)Isn't it fascinating and ironic that the one person who is overtly killed in the book is killed by Gen, who is so against killing? (I say overtly because I got the impression that the second assassin, who died in prison, was executed.)
Though thank God for those earrings,how else could Irene have accepted his proposal!
*points to icon*
Re: lying
Date: 6/18/07 05:27 pm (UTC)Re: lying
Date: 6/18/07 05:31 pm (UTC)Now that icon is an earring ready to take flight!