And now for KoA...

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry I'm posting so much lately (not that I plan to stop, but I figure I'll at least be polite about it).

Now I'm going through KoA and coming up with some questions and comments:



1)Ornon's assistant asks Eugenides what he thinks about the problem of the baron who is tired of supporting the Eddisian garrison. The king says to move the garrison next door to another baron's land; and, because it's pointed out to him that the second baron's land is cut off by a gorge, he says airily, "Build a bridge." Which of course is just what Attolia has been wanting to do but couldn't for fear of offending a third baron.

We find out later that the assistant has been sent back to Eddis, but not before Ornon gave him a black eye for trying to force Gen's hand. (My, what fascinating diplomatic training the Eddisian Ambassador must have undergone!)

My question is: Why? Surely Ornon *wants* Gen to have to be king. Okay, the assistant ambassador's gambit failed, but it doesn't make Gen look any worse than he already does. Ornon himself seems to be working with Attolia to get Gen to take more responsibility in a couple of scenes. So, why does he slug his assistant for doing something he pretty much wants done?

2)I already posted this on Chatzy, but it fits here. When Gen, after he is injured and then is startled by the Queen, reaches out to pull her to him and to touch her cheek, I realized (and it's amazing how long it took me to do that) that he let had to let go of the cloth that he was using to stanch some of the bleeding in order to do so. So it's that important to him to pull her back after he has unconsciously rebuffed her. Sighhhhhhhhhh. I do so love romance.

In that same scene, he tells Attolia, ' "My beautiful queen. Your entire court is staring at you, and I can't blame them." The queen turned to look. Her glance swept through the crowd like a reaping sickle through grain. Mouths slammed shut on every side. There was a scuffling sound as the people in the back shifted, trying to screen themselves from view. The queen looked back at the king, who was broadly grinning.'

I love it that Gen gets such a kick out of how intimidating and even frightening Attolia is. Which he knows from personal experience, of course, but in spite of the "You scared the hell out of me" line and his nightmare, and in spite of the line in QoA that says "He was afraid of her. Some part of him would always be afraid of her," I don't think he is anymore.

3)We find out along with Costis that both the King and the Queen have ways of getting around the palace unseen. I'm wondering how many of those ways Attolia knew before, and how many of them Gen showed her. "What? There's a hidden door here? You can get from A to B secretly? Well, darn, I didn't know that!"

4)Now that Gen has finally admitted he's going to have to be King in fact as well as name, I'm wondering what will change. Some of these I've mentioned before, though maybe in Chatzy rather than here. At those afternoon audiences where Attolia is still sitting in the throne she's always used (or am I remembering that wrong? I'm sure I read it, but can't find the passage now), with Gen in a throne next to hers - will they swap thrones now? Will Gen move into the king's apartments that Attolia never moved out of? Will she move into the traditional queen's apartments? Will they redecorate the walls and floors in a colorful spattered-ink pattern so that their inkpot-hurling habit won't necessitate as much cleanup?

5)How many of us would kill to see something - even a short story - written from the perspective of some courtier describing the events that happen in KoA, and how his impression of the king changes? I love getting Costis' view, but it would also be fun to hear from somebody who isn't as closely involved in what's going on as Costis is.

6)At one point Eugenides tells the Queen that Sophos is kind, which is one reason that Eddis likes him. She says, "And you're not?" and he shakes his head, and she agrees, "No, you're not," and then teases "You've always been kind to me." "What a lie that was," he responds. But he has been kind to her - in QoA, when he's insulting her courtiers as they dance, and mentions Dite, he's "too kind to leave the seed [of doubt that Dite might also have been making mock of their betrothal] to grow."

Comments

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Oops, I have to go soon, so this will be random and quick:

2)The reaping sickle! And later Attolia tells Relius, "I'm a very effective scythe."

4) I thought they already swapped? Must reread.

5) I'd love to see Heiro's POV, because she's one of the few people that, without knowing him in advance, is onto Gen.

6) Ooh, I could go on and on about this...but Sunday a.m. Aikido calls!

Thanks, Leslie, for providing such nice posts lately with fun things to think about!

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

1. I thought what made Ornon angry was that Gen had fixed it so that Eddis had to pay for the bridge and supply the labor.

4. I, too, thought they had swapped thrones. Read the part where Telius and the soldiers come before Attolia for sentencing.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Oh, right, so they did. I guess because she's still running things from her consort's throne was why I got confused.

[empmai.livejournal.com]

1) Paying for the bridge was what I thought as well.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

I didn't get the impression that it was paying for the bridge at all, since that isn't mentioned until the next page, while trying to force Gen's hand is mentioned in the very next sentence that Eddis says after she says that Ornon's the one who gave him a black eye.

I can't see Ornon getting that upset over paying for a bridge. I can see him getting upset over someone's meddling what he considers ham-handedly with Gen (though, as I said, I didn't see it as that ham-handed).

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

What made me think that paying for the bridge was somehow involved was how smug Gen was about it all. He was forced to act kingly by the assistant, but then in turn he made it all work out in Attolia's favor somehow. Her loyal barons got the bridge they wanted, without angering the baron with the existing bridge, and Attolia didn't even have to pay for it. Ornon's assistant meddled and Gen scored, like in a game of chess.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

I can see why you see that.

To me, the smugness was because he knew he was being pushed to be kingly, but while he did make a decision, and it actually was a great decision, he did it in such a way that he still looked like a bungling idiot who really didn't know what was going on. He didn't have to publicly evaluate the possible sites, didn't have to get the baron with the bridge mad at Attolia (in fact, the man probably rolled his eyes and if anything pitied Attolia for being forced to marry an incompetent fool). So much for the assistant ambassador's plan to push him out into the open.

It took me a while to connect some of the stuff in the book. First day that Costis attends the afternoon court: "In fact, during one baron's particularly drawn-out accountings of his tax payment, the king leaned his head back and closed his eyes, to all appearances asleep." The queen point out that he can speak; he says he thought about telling Artadorus he needs a haircut. Gen says, "aggrieved, "I closed by eyes to listen better."
"What did you hear?"
"I'm not sure . . . That's why I was listening so closely. I may ahve to ask the baron to repeat some parts of his report on his grain tax."
"I am sure you can arrange an appointment."
"I am sure I can, too." (pp. 51-52)

In other words, Gen being childish and covering up the fact that he wasn't listening.

Then, after Costis has been doing his new duties for a while, a daily tutorial in which the King asks a simple question, presumably because like Costis he's bored to tears listening to the list of production yields, and ends up getting Pilades giving him a lecture and he's trapped and can't escape.

In other words, Gen being bored and then getting himself into even more boredom because he tries to weasel out of listening to what's boring him. (pp. 65-6)

By page 75, the King has gone to Baron Artadorus in the dead of night and with information gathered from both of those meetings, tells the baron he knows the baron has been cheating on his taxes by lying about the kind of grain he grew - which he'd obviously suspected since that first court that Costis attended.

At that visit, Gen mentions Pilades. That part I connected (see, when things are spelled out for me, I can grasp them!). It wasn't until about my third reading that I actually noticed the name of the baron in the first scene. Then there's another of those rather chilling moments, when I realized what Gen actually meant when he said "I am sure I can, too."

So without anybody but Baron Artadores being any the wiser or thinking Gen anything but a bored and petulant brat, he gets done what he wants done. Sort of like with the bridge.

Have I mentioned how much I love these books?

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Do you think he did all that to save Artadorus's life? Knowing that if Attolia had been the one to catch him he was a goner? Don't Sejanus and his father say that at some point when they remark that Artadorus left suddenly? And then Irene is upset when the Baron leaves and she knows Gen is involved but he won't say how.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Well, to save his life and to make sure he never ever ever ever cheats on his taxes again. I think we're safe in believing that!

I don't think Irene's upset so much as exasperated. Gen's perfectly able to run things and she wants him to, and he keeps doing it behind the scenes while publicly looking like an idiot. She didn't sound angry or anything, just ok-fine-if-you're-going-to-act-like-that-I'm-not-talking-to-you.

[netslefj.livejournal.com]

That's what I thought. A very large part of his agenda as not-King seems to be ending the use of the death penalty in Attolia. (I'm not sure where he stands on torture of others, though.) He's made a sound decision about the tax evasion yet he's circumvented the entire Attolian justice system and its dependence on making a spectacular example of where disobedience gets you - and thumbed his nose at Erondites senior. Also, he's used what he heard with his eyes closed in afternoon court and what he learned from the "boring" old soil guy. If you were Attolia, wouldn't you feel a little one-upped after a while even though you love the guy?

I have a LiveJournal etiquette question. Was I supposed to write an introduction to myself before I started posting?

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

You said what I was thinking, only more clearly. :)

Nah, introductions are nice, but anyone can post. Definitely not required.

[rowana.livejournal.com]

What Checkers said goes for me too, well put. :)

I'm really wondering how Attolia will fit into Gen's great future without being diminished.

[bookaddict88.livejournal.com]

Oh, she'll be diminished, but as she says, that's not a bad thing. And I doubt she'll ever be really overshadowed; I think she'll continue to have a strong presence. They complement each other well, and I think they can work as partners to achieve great things.

[scottykarrde.livejournal.com]

You are brilliant. I just got that frisson of electricity run down my spine as you put it all together.
but of course....wow.
Wow.
That's all.

[traboule.livejournal.com]

I'd wondered about 3 as well...I have this image of a much younger Attolia - on her second night of ruling probably - sitting up at night with a candle and the floorplans of the castle and Relius hanging over her shoulder forcing her to memorize the entire thing.

Although she probably missed a few.

2) I love this as well - the fact that Attolia is what she is: scary as hell, and that Gen loves her anyway. It's one of the things that makes this book so much fun for me: I rarely read male characters who are properly scary, and I can't think of any female ones.

4) Maybe we're going to get the Attolian version of WilliamandMary? Her throne, but he was important, so the names just got weirdly elided? I have no idea...but I would like to see the study redecorated in a style friendly for throwing things. Possibly the inkpot-hurling will constitute the redecorating?

5) Can we have a challenge or something? Maybe over at the sister fic site?

This is just too much fun...

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Lordy, I hope we don't get William and Mary. Her throne (in the sense that she was the daughter of the king from whom they stole the throne, and he only the nephew), and she was a complete cipher. And he was a loathsome, repulsive little toad.

laughs

[(Anonymous)]

oh aged crone
Not a fan of William? WHAT a surprise.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

Oh LORD. You are FEEDING THE APPETITE OF MY RELIUS/ATTOLIA FANFIC MONSTER. PLEASE STOP. Because seriously, that's a perfect activity for them to be doing. (I have the image of Relius and Attolia by firelight, poring over papers, in my head as well. :-b)

[traboule.livejournal.com]

*realizes she really, really wants to read a Relius/Attolia fic*

*pushes cookies, firelit rooms, and snippy conversation through the cage bars*

*stands back hopefully*

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

*sighs and puts on Post-Midterm To-Do list, secretly jumping with glee*

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

*is very glad Jade has such a generous nature and strong social conscience*

*waits patiently for midterms to be over*

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Her second night of ruling... but would Relius have been there? From what I remember, she was queen for at least a little while before she found Relius. He was an escaped servant or prisoner or something, and he came because he wanted a glimpse of the new queen.... so it'd have to be after she'd been ruling for at least a little while.
I need to re-read to get these facts straight, because now I'm wondering if I'm remembering wrongly...

[traboule.livejournal.com]

Whoops.

Unfortunately I don't own KoA (yet!!), so I can't look it up. I had the vague and probably erroneous impression that Relius had been around longer than that (trying to sneak a look at the princess - or the future queen?), but my mind has done stranger things with more obvious facts, so you're probably right. We'll get someone with a book on it.

Mea culpa.

(although I think it's a still a fun image)

[hikari-cyhan.livejournal.com]

1) Huh. I must have read that passage wrong--I thought Gen punched the assistant.

2) Gen terrifies people, too, remember. He probably thinks it's just all-around funny. I bet later once he and Irene were alone, he had a good laugh about Sejanus wetting his pants.

3) I'm sure there were probably one or two Gen knew that Irene didn't.

4) I could see them apartments--Gen to the king's, Irene to the queen's. It would be a show of authority on Gen's part, and the walk from bedroom to bedroom would probably be shorter.

5) Is that a challege? =P

6) Was he saying that what she said was a lie, or how she said it? When she said, "You've always been kind to me," she looked down and acted all demure and meek and maidenly. And, y'know. Not-Irene-ish.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

1)When the Magus and Eddis are talking about it later (p. 151 of the hardcover) the Magus said, "I assumed it was Gen who gave him that black eye." "No, that was Ornon," Eddis informed him dryly. "As you see, the assistant took it upon himself to try to force Gen's hand."

5)No, that's a poorly phrased wish that MWT would provide us with such a chapter or story or whatever. Fanfic won't do it, I'm afraid.

6)That's true, he could have been talking about her behavior rather than her words.

[netslefj.livejournal.com]

Well, Attolia was making a joke, I thought, about Gen's loving but very high-handed treatment of her when he abducted her, when he circumvented her entire justice system over and over, etc., etc., etc. And Gen was enjoying the joke.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

6) Well, Gen's had some moments when he was kind to her, but he's also had plenty when he was not. Let's see, spying on her in her palace and making sure she knew it, kidnapping her, forcing her to accept him as a husband...then more recently, embarrassing her in front of the court, refusing to behave like a king when she needs him to be one, not telling her what he's up to with all of his plots and why he's acting like an idiot, and, oh, here's a whopper, how about taking unnecessary chances in the garden and getting stabbed in the gut? That was not kind to Attolia.

[estarria.livejournal.com]

And lying to her over and over...I don't know how she puts up with that. Oh, and calling her on her almost-execution of Teleus -- necessary, but not particularly kind.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Stopping her from executing Teleus and the others could be seen as a kindness; she loves and trusts Teleus, and just as executing Relius might have pushed her over the edge, so might executing Teleus.

[estarria.livejournal.com]

Now that is true...the method he used to stop her wasn't exactly nice, but then again, she had left him no other options.

[empmai.livejournal.com]

3)"I'm wondering how many of those ways Attolia knew before, and how many of them Gen showed her. "What? There's a hidden door here? You can get from A to B secretly? Well, darn, I didn't know that!"

Maybe this is one of the reasons Att. so pissed off on the wedding night.

The mad poster strikes again

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

And now I have another interpretation question: Phresine summons Costis from his post outside the King's rooms, and takes him to the queen's.
"Costis knew, even before he saw the dark hair on the pillow, who it was. If he hadn't been so tired, he wouldn't have been surprised. Eugenides had long since proven that he could move through the palace of Attolia as he pleased. Clearly, both he and the queen could travel to the queen's room in private if they chose.
'He took a few drops of lethium several hours ago, so I don't think there is a particular need to be quiet,' said the queen. Costis turned toward her and hastily pulled himself to attention. Nothing could stop the flush of red creeping to his hairline.
She was amused."

My interpretation is that he's suddenly realizing that all the jokes, like Sejanus' "Sand in your sheets is such an aggravation, especially when that's all that's in your bed," are very extremely inaccurate. Maybe related to his sudden realization that Attolia is in fact also Irene, and a woman.

On the other hand, it could be that he's embarassed that he was so clueless that he didn't realize that the king and queen could move around at will, and because he was staring.

Other ideas? Agreement? Disagreement?

Re: The mad poster strikes again

[scottykarrde.livejournal.com]

that's my read on it, too. I also think there's the added issue of Costis suddenly realizing that Attolia knows he's recognizing all this at once, and thinks it's amusing. and, since he's the only one of the Guard present, he's kind of representing all the injustices and teasing on the subject, even if he didn't say it. Goodness, I'd be blushing fit to burn. Wouldn't you?

Re: The mad poster strikes again

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Writhing with embarassment, preparing to hurl myself out of a window, and *definitely* blushing fit to burn! Bad enough that he's thinking what he's thinking, but then to realize that she probably knows exactly what's going through his mind...

Re: The mad poster strikes again

[empmai.livejournal.com]

Isn't there a line after that about Att. saying he looks so innocent when he's sleeping and brushing the hairs out of his eyes? Or is that another part.

I keep waiving between interpreting it as blushing at the thought of Att. and Gen's activities in a bed together. Costis seems like quite the innocent boy. Or being embarresed that the Queen can read his mind - that he's realized he's changing his mind about this foreign goatboy.

Re: The mad poster strikes again

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

The only thing I can find is in QoA when she says he looks quite - guileless - when he's asleep. Anybody else?

Re: The mad poster strikes again

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Empmai, maybe you are thinking of when Phresine touches Gen's forehead then gives him a motherly kiss?

Re: The mad poster strikes again

[netslefj.livejournal.com]

I say, nicely put, and both reasons hold. and intuitively he already knew it.

[scottykarrde.livejournal.com]

FIRST of all, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. I just reread King over the weekend, so I was up to snuff...but this just gave me even more to chew on. How does Megan do it?!

1. My read on this was that Ornon was furious a junior and therefore unexperienced? Too eager? assistant piped up and nearly dared Eugenides to do something dangerous - rather on the lines of what Ornon fears later at the banquet. Perhaps Ornon prefers for ambassadorial assistants to assist while he alone handles the volatile issue of prodding Gen. Definitely a black-eye offense.

2. Ohhhhh. So that's why his finger is full of blood...wow, this is really special. I didn't get all that. *feels stupid*

3. Absolutely. And let us not discuss how long it took me to cotton on that Gen had entered the room during Attolia's contemplation of Relius's treachery.

5. *sharpens killing knives*

[keestone.livejournal.com]

1) My take on it. . . Gen is stubborn. Really really stubborn. Junior court functionaries pushing him to act more kingly would just make him dig his heels in more, and Ornon knew that. :)

3) I'm guessing that a lot of the secret ways around the castle were known to Eugenides but not Attolia. Gen had the advantage of his great great whatever grandfather's design plans and whatever other secrets the Thieves of Eddis are privy to. Who would have shown them to Irene? It might be possible that Relius discovered secret floorplans for the palace, but it wouldn't have been knowledge easily available and there would be no reason for any of the men who wanted to control a "shadow princess" to give Irene any secret knowledge even if they knew it.

5) Who? Me? Never. I'm perfectly sweet and innocent and would never resort to violence. *snerk* (Actually, I'd really like Ornon's point of view and political analysis . . . and I'd like to know about the sheep.)

6) I love the complexity and passion of Gen and Irene's relationship. That teasing has so much going on underneath. They're both too sharp edged to be kind, really. Even in the scene you pointed out. . . too "kind" to let the mockery go far enough to damage her trust in one of her few trustworthy courtiers? Kindness? Not exactly the first word to come to mind.

[bookaddict88.livejournal.com]

1) I doubt it was paying for the bridge, for the bridge does help the Eddisian garrison in some respects. I think it was just that the assistant was trying to do something that he doesn't have the right to do (He's not in a high enough position to boss Gen around.) And while that may not have mattered had he been competent enough to come up with a working scheme to get Gen to take power, he does something that only makes the situation worse. Gen looks even more like a sluggish fool after the incident. So I think Ornon was mad because the attempt was really clumsy and the assistant didn't have the right/permission to do try it in the first place.

2) I don't think he is actually afraid of her, but he does have lingering fears of who she was/what she did in the past. It's like monsters in the dark. Most of the time, you aren't really afraid of them, because you know they don't exist. But you still can have nightmares about them, and if something jumps out at you in the dark, you still start back in fight. So yes, I'd say some part of Gen is afraid of her, but that part isn't the rational/awake part of him. Most of the time, he can be amused about how scary she seems, such as in the incident you mentioned or the time when she offers him her cup. But there are times when the irrational/subconscious part takes over, and he has nightmares which aren't so amusing.

5) I would! And Ornon's perspective, as someone mentioned above, would also be fun!

6) I guess it would sort of depend on how you define "kind". He doesn't ever do anything malicious towards her. On the other hand, he's not particularly the tender/gentle type. But then, neither is Irene.