More KoA ponderings

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

I figured my last entry on this topic was far enough back to warrant a new one.

1)Why does Dite go to Gen's room when he's hurt? Okay, they're getting along better, but I didn't get the idea that they were good friends; doesn't sitting by his sickbed seem a bit much?

2)How did Gen know Relius was lying, in the scene with the spies who had been injured and sent back by the Mede? Was it just insight into the way Relius was speaking, or did he have other information that conflicted with what Relius was saying?

3)Near the end of the book, when Costis is hauled out of bed to get the king down from the battlements: doesn't it seem a bit unfair that the guards/attendants would be hanged if Gen fell? I can see their being punished for not saving him from an outside attack, but if he's stupid enough to get drunk and fall off a wall, how is it their fault?

4)Where did all those scars of Gen's come from? Not the side, or the one at his shoulder, or the fetters or the dog bites, but the thigh and all the others. (Not the bruises, either; those I understand).

5)How is it that neither Relius nor Teleus had figured out that the queen loved Eugenides? (Or, come to that, that they weren't told?) And that Relius only seems to figure out that Gen became king only because he wanted to marry Attolia after he's arrested, tortured, etc.? I know Attolia's not terribly revealing, but those two were closer to her than anybody else.

Comments

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

3. Well, Attolia would be pretty darn angry (to put it mildly) if Gen died. I don't think she'd care whose fault it was.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's what I thought too. She's not going to be very rational about it.

[karatelunch.livejournal.com]

Seriously. She'd hang everybody, and then she'd hang herself.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, understatement of the year. On both counts. Hell hath no fury like Attolia scorned.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

What's ironic is that the very next day when Teleus is trying to stop Gen from fighting Laecdomon, she says, "By what authority should I forbid him...?" Well, by what authority would the guards and attendants forbid Gen to lollop around on the roof? (though I grant you she wouldn't be very rational about it). The attack in the garden was another thing altogether; that was somebody attacking him, and the personal guards weren't doing their job of guarding his person.

[parron.livejournal.com]

1. Actually I had figured they had become good friends by that point; Gen made sure that Dite's exile was a pretty pleasant one, and he mentioned something to the effect of "Dite was the one person in the court that I liked" after he was gone.

2. I don't have my copy on me, but I think it was pretty obvious from what Relius said? He was talking about how it must have been a "major" breech, "no one" should have known where the spies was, etc. When reading it, I figured, "oh, then it must be the fault of the guy on top." Gen thought the same way?

3. Attolia is very, very strict. Costis in the beginning was sure he was going to be killed for merely punching Gen, so I'm sure that Gen's death is also a killable crime.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Icon love!

[mycenaeth.livejournal.com]

Omg, love the icon. Mind if I borrow?

[bookaddict88.livejournal.com]

1. As hinikuish said, I kind of figured they became good friends by the time of Dite's exile. So it makes sense to me that when Gen's hurt, they're either already good friends, or are becoming that way.

2. I think it may have been both. Gen is good at gathering his own information; he's also good at making educated guesses. So he may have had a suspicion of what was already going on, and Relius' behavior confirmed it.

3. I think Attolia would have definitely killed them if Gen died. They were responsible for watching him, after all. And she's very angry when Gen gets hurt, and he's the only only one who can convince her to be more merciful. If he were to die, she'd be even more upset, and there would be no one who would be able to convince her to be more merciful/rational.

4. I can't think of any specific event, but there are plenty of possibilities. Gen seems to get hurt a lot. The injuries could have happened during any of his imprisonments (I'm sure they did more to him than was explicitly described), through beatings from one of his cousins, or by him hurting himself in one of his escapades.

5. I don't think they'd believe Attolia even if she did tell them she loved him. They're very attatched to her, and have plenty of reasons to hate Eugenides. I think they're so biased that they can't see that she loves him, despite any evidence they might have that she does.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

1. Friends, maybe, but his brother also was responsible for the attack. Dite doesn't know that, but he may feel vaguely responsible anyway, since he might guess that, if not his brother, his own father could be behind it. Also, LOTS of people go to Gen's room -- it's only Dite and Heiro that Gen chooses to admit, so maybe Gen lets him in hoping to get information.

2. Gen might have his own information, but I think even if it's just a suspicion, Gen has to act there, because he KNOWS Relius will kill himself, and that it would destroy Attolia. So he may not be 100% sure. He's pretty good at reading people, though.

3.The guards and attendants have already failed Gen before -- the guards in the assassination attempt, and the attendants in following Sejanus's lead and putting snakes in his bed, etc. They're all worried about their positions and their lives, and I'm sure Attolia made it very clear that they'd pay if Gen died.

4. I'm with bookaddict. He may have been scratched during the swordfights we know about, or in practice fights, or trying to climb something.

5. I think Teleus knows earlier than Relius does. I'm not sure he thinks it's any of his business. I see him coming around to realizing Attolia loves Gen (maybe when she spares Teleus's life, maybe a while before), but still thinking Gen's not king material, which is what concerns him.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

4. Or the torture?

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

2) I agree that Gen suspected that Relius was guilty, and that he knew that Relius, knowing the queen, would try to commit suicide to save himself from torture. Gen also knew that Attolia wouldn't be able to stand that, and so told her to have him arrested.

3)Attolia is pretty predictable when it comes to people failing in thier duty. Also, since the Attolians openly dislike Eugenides, if he dies while the guards and attendants are supposed to be protecting him and she did nothing about it it would look (to the Eddisians) as if she didn't care that no one did anything to stop it.

5) I figure Attolia wouldn't have any reason to tell the captain of her guard and her master of spies her true feelings about Gen. I mean she isn't used to trusting or confiding in people. I imagine her attitude would be, "Its none of your business. You know your duty. Do it."

penguin lazily doesn't sign in

[(Anonymous)]

No one else but the queens know that Helen offered Irene a peace without the marriage, do they? As far as even Teleus and Relius know, Irene only married Gen out of politics. As to why she didn't tell them otherwise when they are so close to her--I don't know. Perhaps because if she tried to convince them that Gen was worth something, either she would convince them (dubious) or they still wouldn't be convinced--which would dangerously undermine their faith in her. I think, not just for the Top Men, but for everyone, the truth of Gen's kingship had to come from Gen himself when he decided to truly act like a king, and not from any character reference from the queen. Everyone believed quite hard that he wouldn't be a good king, and was in fact horrible, and the queen saying otherwise would just make them shake their heads sadly and think she'd got brainwashed. So instead she doesn't say anything to correct them, and leaves Gen to his rather agonizing way of convincing them.

Re: penguin lazily doesn't sign in

[dawnbluewings.livejournal.com]

Perhaps because if she tried to convince them that Gen was worth something, either she would convince them (dubious) or they still wouldn't be convinced--which would dangerously undermine their faith in her.

Also, please note that dear Attolia is a woman known for beign cold and passionless. Perhaps even she still thinks that she is. Perhaps she feared that if word got out that she was actually in love with the goatfoot, people would stop taking her seriously/her solderpersons would stop worshiping her ("And would you still be loyal to her if she was?")/her enemies might try even harder to hurt Gen in hopes of hurting her through him/other bad things would happen.

I don't know. Whatever.

[empmai.livejournal.com]

1) I think it's what some above said about lots of people went to Gen's room and the question is more why did Gen let Dite in. I thought it had something to do with the nightmare drug. He was giving Dite a chance to put the drug in his food (or at least to give himself a chance to set Dite up). When he's interagating Sejanus he points out that the only other person that would have had the chance to drug him was thhe other girl that visited him.

But why did Dite want to visit Gen and what did they talk about? That's the scene I'd like to see (after the wedding night scene and the gardon scene. Actually could we just have a special edition couple of all the Dite deleted scenes?

[(Anonymous)]

About being punished by death for Gen's lack of self-preservation: Would Attolia really would have them killed? We don't know. All we know is, that that is what his attendants are saying. Now sure, she had a reputation as hard and cruel and maybe it was really believable that she'd react that way, but I think that maybe part of the reason they're saying that is just because it would be too "uncool" to say, "we dont' want him to die". At this point in the story, the attendants are the only people that "get it" that Attolia really loves him and also they are the only ones that truly respect and admire him. But the rest of the court still despises him. And besides, we're talking about men. They're going to put on their tough guy face and say, "well, we don't want him to die because that'll get me in trouble". Rather than admit to anything that might be construed as an emotional attachment to Gen. (Not saying they love him, just that they respect and admire him.)
Now about question 5: I've thought a lot about Attolia's public behavior towards Gen: How she is stony faced as he kisses her cheek every morning at breakfast; how she's surprised to see the crowd staring at her after just kissing him passionately (right after he was stabbed) and how they use secret passageways to visit each other's rooms at night. I think that they both purposefully chose to give everybody this perception. And my theory about why is this: They need for all the Attolians to love and respect Gen for who he is, first, before they understand that she loves him too. If she would have convincingly displayed her love for him from the beginning, she would have lost their respect, and that is the main thing keeping her in power. If she displays her love, but not convincingly, she loses their trust. This way was better. Gen of course, thought this all through and planned it this way.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

Those are very good insights!

"Gen of course, thought this all through and planned it this way" ... or he (and she) just knew, intuitively, what to do, without consciously thinking out the details.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

I wonder about that after-breakfast kiss every day. I assume that he's not out to show everyone he loves her (they think he married her only to become king, I would think, given that even Relius doesn't figure out that the contrary is true for so long). Is it another one of his poking people to see how they react? Or is it that he gets a kick out of the fact that he's completely deceiving them without even trying because he knows that they won't figure it out even with all the clues there staring them in the face?

(One thing that Relius' not knowing that Attolia and Eugenides love each other testifies to is that Attolia's attendants are loyal and close-mouthed. I'm fairly sure they know what's what, but haven't told anybody).

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I thought they kept up the pretense of not caring for one another because Gen was insistent that it was the only way to see who was loyal, and to bring down the Erondites clan. Attolia has agreed that she will let Gen do his thing and doesn't interfere with the way he handles matters, knowing he has to make his own way as king.

There's a scene in my head that goes like this:
"The king was drunk and standing on one hand on the crennelations before he fell off, and YOU DIDN'T STOP HIM?!"

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Throughout the book Gen behaves, publicly, like a brat (except in those rare instances when he doesn't, if you follow my weird reasoning). "Oh, very well," he says petulantly (p. 18). "'It's not my fault I was late,' he said with childish delight" (p. 51). "'I was listening,' the king said, aggrieved. 'I closed my eyes to listen better'" (p. 52). The coin-tossing to annow Relius on p. 73. The whole "It is too deep!" scene. When the queen tells him it's time to deal with his attendant ("The king wriggled, as ever, out of straightforward obedience"). Telling her "Go away" when she reaches to put her hand on his forehead. About dosing Phresine with lethium ("She gave it to me first.") You can think of more examples, I'm sure. Attolia reprimands him so often it's almost as if she's his mother rather than his wife.

I'm wondering how much of it is just Gen teasing Attolia, and how much of it is intended as disguise, and how much is just Gen being Gen! And I'm wondering how often he'll behave like that now that he's really king, and how often it will be the remorseless, implacable Gen of the downfall of Sejanus scene that we see.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Leslie, I hope you'll forgive me for jumping in with a response every time you post -- in case you couldn't tell, I'm doing some serious procrastinating lately.

I think it's all of the above! One of the fun things about those comments is that Gen IS like that, so when he wants to put on a show of being childish, it's completely believable.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Maybe all you fellow procrastinators can answer this one, something that's been niggling at me. When Gen goes to the dungeon and pardons Relius, Teleus shows up to try to get him to go back to bed (and of course he doesn't go). Anyway, Gen tells Teleus to take his squad of guards, and he'll keep Teleus's. Whatever was that for? Or am I becoming like Leslie and reading too much into everything?

Not that being like Leslie isn't a good thing.

[alineadrklrdsis.livejournal.com]

I'm not exactly sure but I think it might have had something to do with sending Costis to bed before he fell over.

[aged-crone.livejournal.com]

Yuh better smile when yuh say that, pardner!

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I have an idea about this, which I'll try to phrase coherently, which is that maybe Gen wanted to take the guards that had heard the Queen order Teleus to get Gen to bed, to set Teleus at ease in his mind that he was in fact going to bed, even though in fact he wasn't.

Uh, yeah, sorry, that wasn't coherent after all. Let's stick with "Gen's squad was tired and needed a break."