Friendship
Sep. 5th, 2008 04:09 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
shadowgirlvg.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
queensthiefThis is kind of an idea I've been wondering about for a few days now. Does Eugenides have, or has he ever had, friends? We know that there are plenty of people who like him, but most of those seem to be people that he's worked hard to gain the respect of. And of course there's the relatives who so dearly love him yet frequently want to strangle him. But these people don't really seem like friends that little Gen would run around with and joke with and frolic through fields with. Who did he play with as a child? Who did he like to pass the time with in Eddis?
Really, overall it seems like Eugenides has largely been on his own. Is that by his own choice as a necesary part of being a thief? Did he want more friends but just couldn't fit in at the court? How does this fit with the evolution of his character now? Please respond with a 3-5 page report, in-text examples, and a twenty-source bibliography or fear your academic doom.
...or just, y'know, share your thoughts.
Really, overall it seems like Eugenides has largely been on his own. Is that by his own choice as a necesary part of being a thief? Did he want more friends but just couldn't fit in at the court? How does this fit with the evolution of his character now? Please respond with a 3-5 page report, in-text examples, and a twenty-source bibliography or fear your academic doom.
...or just, y'know, share your thoughts.
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Date: 9/5/08 09:50 pm (UTC)In The Thief, when Eugenides is riding out of the city with everyone, he tries to wave to Philonikes, and tells the Magus that he's a friend. I think Eddis is a friend, but she's also his queen. Other than that, I can't think of any.
Poor Eugendides. He's so lonely ...
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Date: 9/5/08 10:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 9/5/08 10:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 9/6/08 12:30 am (UTC)in which she waxes *opinionated*
Date: 9/5/08 11:56 pm (UTC)Eddis mentions that the training for Thief is naturally isolating, so there is that.
In the next scene, Relius is reflecting on how he chats up the night with Eugenides, though, and how he's always referring to what the magus said. In his journey during The Thief, it's possible he was forced to be with them so much he made his first friends. I'd say he came out friends with Sophos and the Magus (later, as things cooled down a bit ^.^) and Pol was a genuine friend.
He's making one of Costis, and Relius in the King of Attolia. It's clear he's capable of it.
(Look how chummy he gets with Attolia, and that wasn't all chat and gladness.)
Dite's departure is before either of these things are sure, though. That's where 'the one member of the court I like' comment comes in. Though it may also be only referring to the nobility, in which case that's still true.
He's naturally personable. As he comes out into his power as king, this will be a strength for him, and I think he will make friends. Coming out of the shadows is a process for him toward making friends instead of making secret discoveries.
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Date: 9/6/08 02:06 am (UTC)He's so brilliant and so far above other people, that I don't think very many people are on the same level as him. It's hard to make friends when you are like that.
And he does have friends. Maybe not so traditional, but the Magus is definitely a friend.
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Date: 9/6/08 03:22 am (UTC)Let's see, when he was a kid Eddis took him out of the dorm and put him in the library room by himself. He liked that. He skulks around at night, alone. After he loses his hand he doesn't welcome visitors. He hates court functions. A self-imposed isolation.
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Date: 9/6/08 05:10 am (UTC)What's interesting, though, is that once people are favored with a peek at what's beneath, they can't help liking him and respecting him, even when he drives them crazy. Like Eddis says, it's worth it.
Lastly, he's not only easy to like, but easy to love (and I don't just mean falling head over heels for him, though I certainly did). Other characters feel very passionate about him, even ones who hated and despised him at some point.
Gah, he's so fascinating!
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Date: 9/6/08 05:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 9/6/08 04:00 pm (UTC)As for them feeling passionately for them, that made me snicker. To me, it seems like they either passionately want to support him and help him or they passionately want to strangle and/or maim him. XDDDD
He is fascinating!
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Date: 9/6/08 05:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 9/6/08 08:37 am (UTC)In regards to Gen as a child - because all small children are pretty gregarious, to a certain extent - I think it was his name that led him to begin being isolated from everyone else. It was certainly his name (and later his arguments with his father) that got him into fights with his cousins, leading him to be moved out of the boys' dormitory.
The real question is why did his parents call him Eugenides? Yes, he was named after his grandfather, but he has two brothers and some sisters, and they must be all older than him because in The Thief they're all married and/or accomplished craftsmen. Why weren't they named after their grandfather? (The girls could have been Eugenidia :D)
Personally, I think there was a message from the gods, just like little Eddis knew she was going to be Eddis, not Eddia.
*feels eloquent and insightful this early in the morning*
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Date: 9/6/08 01:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 10/26/12 05:10 am (UTC)...sorry it's so long...
Date: 9/6/08 03:51 pm (UTC)Personally, I find Gen to be somewhat lonely even now, but I'll start a little closer to the beginning. The only person I really see Gen frolicking through fields with is Eddis because she seems like the first person who ever got to know him for who he was and not who he wanted people to believe he was. Granted, that friendship was probably still difficult with their different prospects in life.
Centering on Gen's future occupation (thief, not king) and all the training and secrecy required, I doubt that he had a lot of time to just run about and be a kid. Especially with his father breathing down his neck in regard to the military. But still, the memories he seems to recount the most often during the books, to me, are those of his training and practicing as a child, like watching Attolia dance in secret and sneaking around with his grandfather.
As for him feeling like the odd man out, I don't doubt that, seeing how he didn't seem to get along with his cousins and all and the way he was a little hotheaded when he was younger. Moreover, with his desire to be the Queen's Thief, a job for only one person at a time that no one else can really understand or relate to, he probably did feel left out. His mother's death, undoubtedly, played a role as well.
I'm a strong believer in people's present selves being made up of their past experiences, even in regard to fiction, and I feel like this all played an enormous role in shaping him into the person he is in KOA. Again, he's the odd man out with nearly everyone in the castle against him. Not only that, but no one there knows his true selves and only have a vague idea by the end of the book. The fact that he sits in the chair facing Eddis also leads me to believe that his friends are there.
Currently, I'd say he's only got a handful of friends and that group is comprised of the people that truly know him: Eddis, the Magus, Sophos, and Attolia. There might be a few others, but these seem to be his innermost circle. I hope that Costis firmly establishes himself in it as well.
Re: ...sorry it's so long...
Date: 9/6/08 04:12 pm (UTC)All those things you mention about Gen's personality that make him an excellent Queen's Thief will make him an excellent king, too. He holds himself back when it comes to relationships with others. Not many people see him for how he really is. No one ever sees all the steps in his actions, only the final result, so they are always surprised and awed by him. Sort of like when Sherlock Holmes explains how he figured something out and Watson thinks it sounds easy then. He's used to being lonely and I imagine a ruler who has to make difficult decisions generally feels that way, too.
I'm a strong believer in people's present selves being made up of their past experiences, even in regard to fiction
Me, too, and it's wonderful when an author writes a character that way. That's part of the reason Gen is such a captivating and lovable character. We understand why he is the way he is, and even when he does something surprising--like declare his love for Attolia--we can understand where it comes from and it doesn't seem forced or plot-generated.
Re: ...sorry it's so long...
Date: 9/6/08 05:56 pm (UTC)That's all very true. And, for the record, I love Sherlock Holmes as well. Screw the people who say he's a flat character. >___> I didn't think about that being the case with Gen, though, but now that you mention it, I really see it.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only psychotic person when it comes to fictional characters! I love character driven stories and that's probably one of the reasons I like The Thief and all the other books in the series so much. The characters are all so realistic and so flawed, yet so lovable. It's hard to find anything other than the usual stereotypes in literature sometimes. And it's especially difficult to find good main characters that develop throughout a book/books and then actually retain those changes.
Re: ...sorry it's so long...
Date: 9/7/08 04:23 am (UTC)Anyway, I too see the paralell to Sherlock Holmes (who I also love. I went to his museum in London and fangirled.). Eugenides most definitely shares Holmes' love of the dramatic explanation after his big plan has come through. I think he's going to have to stop doing that so much in future books though. As Teleus pointed out, it was largely Gen's secrecy that led the Guard to believe that he was an inept king and kept them from trusting him.
Re: ...sorry it's so long...
Date: 9/7/08 06:37 am (UTC)I want to go fangirl at the museum! -weeps- Out of curiosity, have you read Angel of the Opera by Sam Siciliano? It's a cross between The Phantom of the Opera and Sherlock Holmes...
That's very true, but I hope that the readers at least get to know everything even if the other characters don't. XD
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Date: 9/25/08 04:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 9/7/08 02:06 am (UTC)And then there are adults that he had to have spent time with, like his grandfathers, his mother, father, aunts and uncles, Galen. After all, he did grow up in a mountain country with an exceptionally large family (by my standards anyway), so most of his friends had to have been relatives. Who wanted to strangle him. And with that, it seems like he was often away, traveling, with The Thief.
But, when we meet Gen, he is only 18 (I think). Still time to be sociable.
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Date: 9/7/08 04:33 am (UTC)Also, I'm still wondering about the possiblity of little Gen having a more traditional friendship, another impish young boy that Gen could have gotten into trouble with and traded, I dunno, Poet Trading Cards with. It seems out of character for Eugenides now, but do you think there might have been a time when Gen was so young and free-minded?
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Date: 9/7/08 06:42 am (UTC)If she'd hurry along with the fourth book, we might know. >___> Then again, I'm willing to wait years, if need be, so long as she doesn't destroy the characters and plot by cranking out book after book like some authors...
You bring up a valid point about all the names, though. Now I'm tempted to go hunting for more fanfiction... Or to actually sit down and write some. Hm.
He's got to have had traditional friendships growing up, though, since he seems so friendly. While he does seem a little cynical, to me, it feels like he wants to think the best of people, or at least he did in the first book. I think that lessened as the series progressed, actually. I can still see him as somewhat lonely in childhood, but there's got to be some good friends somewhere in his childhood.
I feel like we know so much about Gen and the other characters, but still so very little. D: Darn you, Ms. Turner... -shakes fist-
Childhood stuff
Date: 9/8/08 03:05 pm (UTC)What in the world happened with Ornon and the sheep? Seems to have been pretty devasting for Ornon both financially and socially. Seems like Ornon was an adult and Gen was a kid when it happened.
And clearly some (lots?) were amused by whatever it was. Some sort of come-uppance for a priggish courtier?? Aulus and Boagus were very amused by the memory.
Cousins who might have been friends - in QoA, one cousin (Timos?, don't remember exactly) drives the chariot that Eugendies and the Magus take back to Eddis. Cousin and Gen seem very comfortable and cordial and quite good at working together, probably friendly. I think that same cousin's name is mentioned as one of those killed later that year in the war.
- ELM -
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Date: 9/25/08 04:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 9/8/08 06:40 pm (UTC)I do think that Gen must have had friends, or at least friendly relationships (which isn't necessarily the same thing) growing up, including many of his cousins. We know he didn't always get along well with his cousins, but people don't always get along with their friends, do they?
I think this is part of what hurt him most about the war with Attolia--losing his cousins/friends. I remember in KoA, when he offers to send the courtier to meet his cousins... but then those are the cousins who held his head down in water until he insulted his family... Hmm.
I'll think more on this.
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Date: 9/13/08 10:21 pm (UTC)~Feir Dearig
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Date: 9/14/08 12:00 am (UTC)Yes, exactly.