Kilimun and Gerothenes

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Hello, Sounisians! I bring questions!!

 

Quite honestly, I’ve wondered about the story of Kilimun and Gerothenes from the first time I read KoA – but I’ve never gotten around to asking. Yaaaay for procrastination.

 

First of all, Phresine obviously means to say something to Gen, but what is it? I’ve tossed around ideas, but none of them really match up. And do the characters match up to people in the story? The line, “I think the difference lies in the choice” makes me wonder if Gerothenes is Gen, who chose to be with Irene knowing he was giving up his freedom. But then that brings up the ending. Gerothenes does help Kilimun remember his promise, and Kilimun becomes a better person because of it, but if that’s the case, where is the moral? That’s reiterating things we already know. I don’t know about Kilimun as Gen, either, because the most important lesson that Kilimun learns is that he needs help to be a good king, and that he needs to be honest. That isn’t Gen’s problem (except possibly the honesty bit), as far as I know. Question two. Why doesn’t Gen like the story? He gets really agitated, and I can’t really tell why. Maybe he sees something I don’t -  wouldn’t be the first time, XD. At this point in KoA, I’d think what Gen wants to hear least is that he has to be king… but where is this in the story? The closest I can get to a message like that is that there is a king in the story, a good one. But is that enough for Gen to conclude that Phresine is after him for acting like a bad king?

 

Please discuss!

Comments

[kindigo.livejournal.com]

I think at least one of the reasons he gets disquieted is the moon goddess's presence and words in the story. Gen's had a bit of experience with interfering gods and he probably at least partially shares Costis's opinion that they should stay on their altars where they belong and stop messing around with mortals.

I also think that the moral of Gerothenes (Gen) helping Kilimun (Irene) be a better sovereign does apply — as Gen tells to Relius, Irene could only have held power for a little while longer before losing either the throne or herself as a person.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

Good call.

I'd say Gen identifies with Klimun, and that's what Phresine expected. Gen is having to deal with moving from being the Thief, who works best when hidden and hiding the truth, to being a King, who has to lead, to delegate, and to be in the open. One of the themes in the story is not just that of truth, but that a ruler has to reveal himself to be a ruler to be effective (or it'll all end in tragedy). Also, he gets agitated at the near failure of a king -- a king in danger of offending his god (and we know how seriously Gen takes that now).

And Gen . . . is definitely afraid of taking power as a ruler, and of revealing himself to others. This is not long after the "I can do what I want!" outburst, which has completely different connotations for a Thief and for a King.

As for Gerosthenes, that I think is reassuring -- a reminder to Gen that the king can have faithful servants to share the burden rather than the solitude of a Thief. And, the burden of ruling may just be too heavy for one person to carry without failing, so gathering good, trustworthy subjects around you is, indeed, essential.

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

...maybe Gerothenes is Costis?? maybe not directly, and probably not as Phresine meant it, but Gen wins Costis' support in the end by being an honest and open king. Although that couldn't be Phresine (because it references future events - unless there's something about Phresine we don't know about!), it could be mwt.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

This is an interesting section of the book with many double meanings.

It's important to notice the order of the legend. When Klimun goes to the moon temple, he is not yet a powerful sovereign; and his country is in much distress with an ever looming doom. He makes a deal with the goddess to save his country and only if he remains true to that promise can he maintain his country's safety.

At this moment, the Mede Empire is breathing down Attolia's neck and Gen is not yet in a position of respect and open authority. The gods intended the throne to be a reward to him as well as giving him a position in which he can counter the Mede. Only if he remains true to his promise to become king, can he protect Attolia and his homeland. Notice the parallales.

Of course, Gen does not want to be king so his utilizes his "mad ninja skillz" to deal with throne matters as he did as the Thief.This is how he avoids taking the reigns of power but with out actually letting them go which he knows would doom Attolia. He does this to carefully reject the gods rewards and resit being the king the gods intended.

I believe Gerosthenes represents the subjects of Attolia. Gen at first tries identify with the slave, but Phresine rebukes that. Gen is no longer a subject and a servant as he was in Eddis. He is the authority figure.

Gen becomes distressed as the story nears its climax because he think Klimun is going to accidentally break his word and condemn his country. Something he as king fears he may do. Gen struggles with the fact that every decision he makes is so important. One mistake could open the gates of hell considering the precipice Attolia, Eddis, and Sounis are hinged on at the moment. For Gen to offend the gods would be catastrophic, and he might just succeed in doing that if he continues to reject their reward.

Klimun is stopped by a loyal subject in the story. Representing the fact that Gen can not do everything alone as he once did. He needs to learn to come out of the shadows and into open authority where his supporters are also known.

I believe that is the main theme, but there are probably other double meanings in this legend for us to discover.

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Oh, I like this. Phesine hinting that Gen needs help to be a stable ruler, and if he's a good king now, his subjects will help him later. But I hope he doesn't lose his mad ninja skillz in favor of kingliness. But cause however cool kingliness is, as fangirls we need to read about some mad ninja skillz from time to time.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

*APPLAUDS!*

Well PUT, Lady Jane!

[diadactic.livejournal.com]

This is my favorite short story within the stories. I think the moral of the story is simply that your support system will save your neck if you are worthy; and that it is even more true in the other direction- if they bother to save your neck, you are worthy. It was a cheer up, people like you, sort of a message.
Gen is Klimun, but not any more than anybody else. Gerosthenes is everybody who stands with him- not just specifically Attolia.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

You guys are so smart! This is also beautifully put.

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

On a most blatantly obvious level, Kilimun is Gen (the king), and Gerothenes is Costis/Teleus/Phresine (the loyal subordinate who whacks the king over the head to prevent him from doing something stupid). One of the morals, really, is about subtlety and trickery (i.e. lying), something Gen prides himself on, and about the advantages of having a less subtle but more reverent person at hand to stop you from overreaching and screwing up.

Tangentially, I have always wondered about the point in the story where Gen interrupts and says he wants a story with a happy ending. Did the story have a happy ending until the king insisted?

[pigrescuer.livejournal.com]

Gerosthenes hit Klimun over the head and he died, therefore telling no more lies. :)

Re-post from long, long ago for me

[(Anonymous)]

Hello all! I'll delurk someday. I promise. Really.
Anyway, one day about a year ago when I really should have been finishing up a very important paper, I was thinking about these very questions; after reading a similar Sounis post, I wrote the rather lengthy (and on reflection ramble-y) post below. In short, while I agree with all of the above comments, I also argue that the reason Gen is so anxious in the beginning of the story is that he, like Klimun, views himself as having made a deal with his god/s, and he is scared of failing not only his queen and his country, but also his obligation to the gods themselves. A bit of conjecture, but I back it up with textual support ;)

"First off, I don't think Phresnine changed the end of the story; it's too good of a twist, and it would take back what I think MWT was trying to say with it, and perhaps with KoA in general: that sometimes even resourceful and clever and brave people - eg Klimun/Eugenides - get into situations that they don't know how to get out of, and at that time you have to trust that you have surrounded yourself with good people - eg Gerosthenes/Costis - who can help you work through it. Or, if that's too touchy-feeley for you, perhaps the story had two endings, like the one in QoA, and she just picked the nicer ending because she felt bad for him.

Secondly, I've been thinking about this mini-story in reference to two other quotes from the book: First, when Eugenides says "because not wanting the prize the gods have arranged for you - that just might offend the hell right out of them," and second, when Phresnine notes that the difference between slavery and Gerosthene's position "lies in the choice."

I'm thinking (conjecturing, guessing, whatever) that Eugenides believes himself to be in a sort of deal with his gods. Eugenides has accomplished one whole heckuva lot by KoA, and even if he did it without the interference or direct help of his gods (Eddis at least doesn't believe they directly influence events, though she isn't the one that's been manifestly saved by one of them), then at least with their noticeable presence and I'm sure a good deal of praying. If Eugenides never made a Costis-like arrangement of the "if you help me do this then I swear I'll do this," variety, I'd be really surprised.

So Eugenides has everything he wanted, sort of - but at what cost? Here the "choice" is important: even if Eugenides doesn't believe that he's made a deal with his gods (though the deal theory draws the closest parallels with Klimun's mini-story), Eugenides at least has willingly chosen - fought, even - to become king. He volunteered for this difficult task, fully understanding what it would mean and require to perform it well.

And if I were Eugenides, and I believed that the flip side of the gods helping me get everything I wanted was the requirement of doing well with it once it was mine, then I'd be squirming if I were him, too. Yeah, the Attolia court isn't making being a king easy on him. And yeah, we all know he's going to be awesome in the very-near future. But at this point in his kingship, Eugenides is awkward, and his success is not assured. Indeed, he is perhaps even a little resentful of the burden he's taken upon himself - as Attolia notes, he _hates_ being king, at least for now. He's spending most of his time wiggling and dodging and avoiding the spotlight as much as possible. And he knows it, too - he's self-aware enough to know that he's not living up to his responsibilities, whether out of fear or homesickness or just a good old hatred of all things related to the viperous Attolian court. So for me, he was worried about Klimnum breaking his oath out of forgetfulness and neglect because he knows (or at least worries) that he's been neglecting his kingship and promises a little bit, too.

Whew! Was that every long. But I feel better now - these short stories have always been a puzzler for me. But man how I love them: go quality story-telling!"

Re: Re-post from long, long ago for me

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Speaking of gods, I want to hear more about this moon goddess - is she part of the Eddisian pantheon, or a different one from Kathodica? I love her for some reason

Re: Re-post from long, long ago for me

[(Anonymous)]

In a way, I'm wondering if this story may be foreshadowing something that is to come in the next book. To me, it has always seemed that KoA has a plot and a half in it. Could it be that this story relates more to the half plot than the whole one?

I recently shared these books with a number of my friends (they all loved them!) and one of them said that someday she would like to see Gen get into a situation in which he has no control over the outcome. We all know he can pull brilliant solutions out of thin air, but what if someday he can't and he has to live with the consequences of that? This relates back to what the previous poster said about "Klimun/Eugenides - get into situations that they don't know how to get out of, and at that time you have to trust that you have surrounded yourself with good people." At the moment, he has had some impossible situations, but he has come out on top. What about when he is unable to? And how would his support group influence the outcome?

Re: Re-post from long, long ago for me

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Please please please de-lurk yourself! I love your first point; I think you're right on target there. I also have always thought that one point mwt was making was that if you have loyal, loving friends, obviously you are worthy of them, and even if you start to slide off the path of righteousness, if you have these friends they will help you slide back on. Ok, everyone else put that much better.

So de-lurk. Do not be afraid. We come in peace.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

For me, the most simple and obvious way of looking at the story is Kilmun=Gen and Gerosthenes=Costis & Co. Kilmun/Gen pretending not to really be a strong ruler (with goodish reasons), but Gerosthenes/Costis knowing that that is NOT the best thing and knocking a bit of sense into him.

There is, of course, more to it, as others have said... I obviously haven't looked as deeply at the story as I could have. Can I just say that I love this community?

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I don't think the myths/fables/stories in the books are ever meant to be taken as directly mirroring Gen's story, as in Gen=Klimun or Gen=Hespira or even Gen=Eugenides. The great thing about the stories is that they can be interpreted in different ways. So Gen is Klimun but also Gerosthenes and Costis is Gerosthenes but not really, etc., etc.

I agree with almost everybody. Gen relates to Klimun and is worried because it looks as if Klimun will break his promise to the goddess -- and Klimun's fault is pretending to be something he isn't, Gen's specialty. I think Gen fears the story will parallel his own path and that the King will be punished. But then the surprise ending comes. It's unexpected and it makes him laugh, but it's also a moment of grace -- Klimun's fault won't be punished because his friend intervenes. It's another reminder of what Relius says later, that Gen has always been isolated but that he needs people around him. And a reminder that the gods, while demanding, show mercy in unexpected and very practical ways. I doubt that Gen at that point in the book thinks this parallels his own life, but at least it's a hopeful thought.

[crowinator.livejournal.com]

This is such a great community! (c: All of the responses have been fabulous and helped me understand more about why the Klimun story struck such a deep chord, even when I didn't fully understand its meaning to Eugenides or its purpose in the context of the novel. The ending to the Klimun story brought tears to my eyes (I am a weepy reader lol) but I could never quite figure out why it seemed so meaningful. Some very good interpretations here. Thanks!

[(Anonymous)]

I've been wondering- you know in the Thief when they go through the Sea of Olives? Well, I'm sure the Magus says something along the lines of 'it was probably planted to honour a god but it was so long ago now that nobody remembers which one'.

Is it the moon goddess mentioned in the story?

(If it's totally obvious, just ignore me) I'm not sure if it's the right area but perhaps it spread or something...

~CrazyViolin (who has forgotten her LiveJournal password so has been demoted to lurker)

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

That's what I thought, CrazyViolin, but it's not stated outright so I guess there's room for doubt.

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

I guess it depends on whether or not Kathodicia is a part of Attolia or not, because that's where the moon goddess' olives were planted, according to the story.
Since Kathodicia was big enough to have its own Annux, I think it's probably its own country, but I agree the custom could have spread. The panthenons around here don't seem all that concerned about locality.

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

I assumed that Phresine was making up more of the story than is obvious at first - and that the olives planted in the story are based off the sea of olives. Thought process:

Ummmmm... I need to take this story somewhere.... *looks out window* OH! *lightbulb*

More inspired than that, obviously, since she definatly had a direction she wanted to take the story, but... similar-ish.

[pigrescuer.livejournal.com]

That's what I thought too!

[ballet2nite.livejournal.com]

I can't imagine Phresine serving the queen without her homeland being part of Attolia, and wasn't the Sea of Olives in Attolia? I was thinking the role was Gerosthenes-Phresine.

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

You're right, the Sea of Olives is in Attolia, but we don't know whether the Sea of Olives, planted in honour of the old gods, is the same as the olives planted in Kathodicia for the Moon goddess, though I'd bet there's at least a connection. It would seem a bit odd though, if Kathodicia is the Sea of Olives region, that we'd never heard of it until KoA, especially when Gen travelled right through it plus a lot more geography in TT.

[ornon.livejournal.com]

My idea of "the difference is in the choice" refering to Gero/Kli vs Gen/Irene (this goes waaaay back up top there) goes back to Queen of Attolia, when Gen is feeling used by the gods. When the unknown goddess confronts Eugenides (pg 356 in my paperback), she asks if Eugenides would trade his hand for Attolia (the person). Gen's silence and the goddess's answer a few lines later indicated to me that Gen would have chosen things the way they worked out anyway, even without the god(dess)s' manipulation.

Just as Gerothenes remained in the service of the prince despite the bonds of slavery, Eugenides would have chosen the same path despite the interference of the gods.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

It also echoes the story in QoA about Hespira.

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

...Am I the only one who thinks that this story gives a whole new twist to what Gen's cousin calls "moon promises"?

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

YOU WIN