Hello

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

Hi everyone... community newbie, here.  ^^  Am I allowed to introduce myself?

I'm Rosa, I've just turned 19, I go to college in Hong Kong, and I read The Thief for the first time when I was... 9, I believe.  It remains one of my favorite books to this day, along with LOTR, Potter, and Bartimaeus.

I despise the Queen of Attolia, both book and woman, because I cannot fathom how Gen went from "wild mountain lions could not drag me into your service" to "I love you, please marry me even though you cut my hand off."  (No offense meant to any Attolia fans, but yeah.) The King of Attolia... redeems it somewhat, I suppose.  Except not.

I hope to someday do some fanart/fiction, but I have no time right now. DX

Very pleased to meet all of you, because The Thief SO totally needs a larger fandom. ;D

Comments

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Welcome, Rosa! We love new members, whether they love Attolia or not!
no really *cough*! ;-)

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

*waves* Hi there. ^^

[zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com]

I knew what happened in QoA ahead of time, so i was all set to hate her. And I did, for a bit. But their relationships is so weirdly complimentary, and the expansion of her character helped. Still, I totally get why you wouldn't like her (Geeeen! *SOB*).

Welcome! Awesome to have you. :)

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

I would have loved their relationship in KoA if I hadn't read the first two books... does that make any sense?

XD Glad to be here.

[kulai-raito.livejournal.com]

well QoA is actually my fav. but as long as ppl like the books overall i'm happy!!
I just turn 19 like three days ago and still hasn't come in terms with that one digit.
Welcome!

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

Cool, my birthday was the 8th, when was yours? ^^

I will never, ever read QoA. It was depressing, slightly sadistic, and made me cry. Also, Gen's love made NO SENSE after his thoughts on her in the first book.

That said, you're free to like what you like. ^^

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Aw, thats a bit harsh on Irene. I think that you come to sypmathise with her on re-reads, because you see what guilt is doing to her and.... well, yeah.

Welcome! I like your name ;-)

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

I've re-read. I don't sympathize. The romance does not make SENSE. He had been saying how "she fell short of her mark" when her beauty was compared to Hephestia. And how "wild mountain lions could not drag him into her service." It makes no sense, and it's a bit... sadistic.

I don't mean this as a personal attack, you understand. *waves friendily*

I like your name too! :D Sounds somewhat familiar, as a matter of fact. :D

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Welcome to Sounis.

You should certainly try writing some fan-fiction. We need more stories to read around here. I'm a fan-fic author for "Queen's Thief" myself, and I've gotten quite a bit of enjoyment out of writing fics for the novels.

But...

I must warn you. I have an equal LOVE of Gen and Irene. She is my favorite female character of all time, because Mrs. Turner figured out a women can be beautiful and feminine but still be powerful and strong (I am making no reference to T. Peirce here. Truly... *winks*)

I will soon be publishing a long fic centered around Irene and her past. I hope you take a look despite your feelings.

Oh, and about the mountain lion quote.

Note this part of "The Queen of Attolia"...

"When I stole Hamiathes's Gift, I loved you then. I didn't understand it. I thought you must be a fiend from hell," he admitted, cocking his head to one side,"but I already loved you."

Gen does mature as he grows older and comes to understand the true complexity of the person that is the queen of Attolia. Although, completely subjected her whole life and treated as a political tool rather than a real person, she still rose above the opposition to bravely defend her people. She is not a sadist. She took what measures she found were necessary in her country. I find her a truly admirable character somewhat resembling Queen Elizabeth.

*refrains from further starry-eyed ranting*

I hope you enjoy the community.

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the welcome. :D

I'm glad the author wrote a woman equal parts beautiful and powerful (there are a few in literary existence, but not many), but that can be done without having them chop Gen's hand off.

I commend you on your fic, I'll see if I can stop by. XD

Gen-in-love-with-Attolia is not the same person - does not ACT as the same person - that I grew to love in Book 1. I think that's partially why I hate her. >.> It does not strike me as the healthiest of relationships. XD

<3

[dannybailey.livejournal.com]

Welcome! I understand how you feel; it's actually taken me until a few monthes ago to really understand Eugenides' apparent change of heart from Thief to QoA.

We would happily welcome your fan contributions! There is a fanfiction community for the Queen's Thief books called queensthief_fic. Check us out and please feel welcome to post your own work!

Btw, I like your icon. John William Waterhouse is one of my favorite artists. :)

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

I love Waterhouse. *________* He's one of my favorites, too!!!! *high-fives* I wish I could draw like him... *sigh* There's this innate romance to his stuff, it's so amazing. XD

[cabin-boy.livejournal.com]

You are not alone in your feelings for Queen of Attolia. I remember writing a lot of the same things in my introductory post to Sounis, haha. ;D Welcome to the comm!

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

YAAAAY. I have an ally. Lol! Very nice to meet you. ^_~

[openedlocket.livejournal.com]

Wow you've been a fan for 10 years. I can only hope to last that long, I've only read the books last year.

Welcome! I hope one way or another the people in this comm can convice you that Attolia is a misunderstood woman who is super-respected but under-loved. But of course we all understand if you really dislike her and all. But I mean just because she cut off Gen's hand doesn't mean that...wait that thought was treasonous.

Being loyal to two people at the same time is hard *is sounding like Costis*. Oh well, ignore my ranting. My mental condition has been declared hopless. *is joking* I'm sure you'll love it here.

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

^^ The book is so amazing, it's quite easy to stay a fan of. :3

[ganzganzsmexi.livejournal.com]

Don't hate me, but...I liked Irene even in The Thief. At that point, we'd already heard the Magus say that Eddis wasn't secure in her throne because she was a woman, and then along comes this strong, ruthless character who rules her country with no apologies. Maybe it's because I've always been so fond of women like Hatshepsut and Elizabeth I, but I was an Irene fan from the moment she walked in dressed as Hephestia. (Not least because it reminded me of Elizabeth I trying to emulate the Virgin Mary.)

I guess I kind of understand where you're coming from, but that was never my opinion. The two major plot twists of QoA were both ruined for me: some moron on Amazon posted a review with no spoiler warning that mentioned Gen losing his hand *grumblegrumblemgroan*, and the plot description on the back of my copy of QoA says something about how Gen must "steal something the Queen of Attolia thought she had sacrificed long ago"--her heart, of course--which pretty much gave the whole game away. So I was already braced for the change in Gen and Irene's relationship before it happened.

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

*shrug* I've never given a crap how powerful or badass a character is if I don't find something in their personality, in terms of moral ethics, that I approve of. I can respect them for their power, but I'll never like them.

When she was dressed as Hephestia, I felt the same way Gen (said he) did; it just paled in comparison. The scene with Hephestia had been so powerful, Attolia seemed like a wannabe to me. D:

No offense, though. I get how it's gratifying to see a powerful female character, I totally see that. So to each their own, I guess. :D

(And you're right, spoilers suck. ^^)

[loquaciousquark.livejournal.com]

pfffffff you people are too nice. come over here so i can sock you one right in the kisser, blasphemer.

also, uh, welcome to the community, i guess

i will welcome you with punches

:D

[loquaciousquark.livejournal.com]

naaaaw i jest, i'm glad you're here

[ladymoon-kora.livejournal.com]

I totally understand what you mean about the Queen of Attolia, it took me a long time to come to terms with The Queen as a person, and a few readings to get the book. It actually effected The King of Attolia a little for me, because I wanted to throw it at the wall after Costis hit Gen and said what an awful king he was, I thought to myself "What did she do to him??!!!!"

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

XD I get you, yeah. But for me, Costis (and the rest of the guard's) comments about Gen didn't bother me, because I knew they were untrue. :D

[readsintrees.livejournal.com]

I have to say that I read The Thief over a decade ago (in the dark ages of middle school) and of course I loved Gen. I don't recall hating Irene, but (as others have said) I saw her as an Elizabeth character; a strong woman who knows what must be done to protect her country. I had the whole QoA hand-chopping thing slightly ruined for me, but it was still a shock...but again, I didn't hate Irene because she was doing what needed to be done to prove a point to anyone else that thought it would be ok to go sneaking through her palace (like a would-be assassin). So, I guess since I wasn't against Irene, I could completely understand the love between Gen and Irene. Basically, it is just one of those cases that's too complicated and intense to explain.

Anyway, I wanted to share an article I read on OverThinkingIt, about strong female characters. The article is about movie characters, but I thought it could also pertain to book characters as well. One of the main things about the article is that movie makers are told that they need to have strong female characters in their films, but they usually misinterpret what it is to be a "strong female character." They make their female characters too strong, too perfect, too perfectly tan, etc, because they take "strong" as a literal sense. This makes me think of some female heroines in books that, although reading about them is a guilty pleasure, they still feel hollow to me. Take Alanna; we all love her, she is witty, smart, quick, etc....almost too much so. Her only flaws seem to be temper or her size. Not actual character flaws. In a way, this makes her seem 2-D to me, not fully fleshed out.

Attolia, on the other hand, has very clear flaws, and to me this makes her feel like a more fleshed-out female character. Read the article and see if you get what I'm trying to say:

http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/18/why-strong-female-characters-are-bad-for-women/

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting this, RIT. It expresses clearly what most of my incoherent babble did not.

I agree with you about Alanna. To me she also seemed a bit too... (don't hate me Alanna fans) whiny. A god didn't even come down from the heavens to tell her to stop whinny, sulking, and kneeing piteously which was extremely disappointing.

Female characters that are not damsels-in-distress nor Laura Croft sterotypes are the most believable and profound in my mind, because they are real people.

Lets see...

Some "weak" female characters in books: Irene and Helen from "Queen's Thief", Dashita from "Book of a Thousand Days", Kyoko Mogami from "Skip Beat!", Lynet from "The Savage Damsel and the Dwarf", Kiri Koshiba from "Beauty Pop", Sophie from "Howl's Moving Castle", Blackrose from "dot Hack: Another Birth", and Holly Short from "Artemis Fowl".

*is racking brain*

Can anyone think of any more?

[in-my-niteshirt.livejournal.com]

Firstly, welcome!
I was so surprised to read that you're not a fan of Attolia, my first reaction was to want to "cure" you of this - ha! But enough has been said along those lines.
What I'm wondering now, though, is, why is it that I am so quick to forgive Attolia? You're right! It's awful what she did. I'm not sure I'd forgive her if she weren't a fictional character.
I guess I'm ready to forgive her just because Gen is. I'm following his lead. I love her because he does. And I absolutely adore him for being so willing to forgive. (What is sexier than a guy who's so in love and full of un-wavering devotion? Even *before* winning her heart?) I love that he loves her, so I can't help loving her too.
Interestingly, this has not been your experience. I wonder if you're just not as easily led, or maybe the characters are more real to you than they are to me? Am I too willing to make it fairy-tale-ish in my mind? Hmmm....
Well good for you, for having an opinion and stating it, giving us food for thought, and opening up a good discussion.

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

Why thank you!! ^^

Gen's easy acceptance and love of her just made me feel like he'd been brainwashed. D: But whatever.

Partly, I just don't like people who do bad things to characters I love. Partly, as I said before, I don;t care how admirably powerful a character is if I don't like their personal actions and ethics. >> And I hated the person Gen became when he was around her. Depression = not fun. D:

Their relationship in Bk 3 would have been fascinating to me, if I hadn't read the first two books. >> But I guess that's how these things go. >>

Thanks for the welcome!!! <3

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

I LOVE this comm! What an awesome discussion!

Blasphemer? Bring it, yo? LOL!!!


WE ROCK!!!

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

Lol. XDDDDDDD I think we both got a little too passionate in our discussion, there. *slams down punching bag* Er, yeah. >>

One thing I must say. We who have conflicting opinions are mature and nice enough to not be rude, and can actually discuss this like adults. :D I love that.

PONTIFICATION

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Welcome! Sorry I haven't gotten into this discussion earlier... I've been way busy. But now I'm here!!

First let me say. You are TOTALLY entitled to your own opinion. Completely. All this pontification is because I want to write an essay on the subject and this seems as good a place as any. NOTE THAT I USE QUOTATIONS TO ILLUSTRATE KEY POINTS. Goodness, I’ve written far too many English papers.

The thing that made it easier for me to love Irene, despite the hand-chopping-off, was what I like to call the Darth Vader Effect. You’ll see why I call it this soon. The trick is, Gen didn’t love the woman who cut off his hand… he loved the woman who had been pushed aside. To help her country, Irene had to become completely ruthless, isolated, and calculating. Although it had terrible repercussions, I think this was the only way for her to keep her country out of the control of the barons – I doubt she could have been a successful queen if she kept any shred of trust. I wouldn’t say she was selfless (“and I have watched them hang, to keep this country safe and mine” -Irene); she saw herself as the best ruler, and wanted to keep power out of the hands of others.

Now Gen, being as awesome as he is, figured this out. Not right away, of course, but slowly. From the first time he saw her, Gen sympathized with Irene (“he had never seen anything so beautiful, or so sad” -narration), but this was a more childlike love… he loved her because she seemed lonely, like he was, and because she was beautiful. In my view of the QT timeline, in that scene Irene was either betrothed or about to be… meaning she hid Irene most of the time, and played the shadow princess.

For the next few years, Gen continued to watch Irene, as she slowly became Attolia… maybe he tried to explain away some of the more terrible things she did (“he even lies to himself” -Helen), but he couldn’t have with all the things he heard. He was confused that the girl he loved had supposedly become a monster. I guess the best word to use is the one Gen uses himself: he was “fascinated with her” (-Gen). He had seen the part of Irene that was lonely, but now he knew that she was also a ruthless queen. That’s why he didn’t want to serve her when he was given the chance in TT.

That meeting was a very important point for both Gen and Irene. Irene was meeting someone she saw as an enemy, but you’ll notice she remembers him differently than most people would remember someone they hate. She remembers his smile, and admires (even if she disguises it) that he was able to get the better of her (“inclined her head in acceptance of a point scored” -narration). Gen has seen for himself what Irene has become, and wants to find out once and for all who she is.

(See next comment – there’s a character limit that I seem to have exceeded)

Re: PONTIFICATION

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Now there’s the gap in between TT and QoA. We don’t know for sure how long it lasts (I think about a year: “four times in the last year she knew he had moved through one of her strongholds” -narration). During this time, Gen does some research, and sneaks into Irene’s palace at least three times. On the forth, Irene catches him. You know the result.

After reading through the chapters about Gen’s imprisonment in Attolia, a reader can guess what Gen decided after all his stalker-esque research. He’s realized there is a part of her that is still human, and not a queen, although she sees it as her weakness and tries to get rid of it. Honestly, I expect Gen admired that, at some level… we know that he would do anything to help his country, and Irene had made the ultimate sacrifice to help hers. On an even more personal level, he’s realized he’s in love with her. Not just the “calf love” he felt for her years ago, but real love. He knows she will never again be the girl who danced under the orange trees. But also, he knows that Irene hides behind the queen more each day – by this point, Irene is so wrapped up in the protection of her throne and herself that she commits the crime that changes both her and Gen forever: she cuts off Gen’s hand. No matter where you stand in the Great Age Debate, Gen can’t be older than eighteen. Personally, I think early sixteen – but whatever age, Irene knows she has gone too far.

So overall, I’d say a lot of Gen’s depression was grief for Irene – even directly after the hand-chopping, he wasn’t angry with her… he was sad for her. This brings me to the different interpretation of the “oxe harbrea” quote. The obvious one, which I’m sure is relevant, is that he’s calling to the Eddisian gods for help… but there is another. Irene uses Hephestia as a symbol of her rule, so I expect he also is talking to her. “Wisdom and love” (although, as we’ve been told, a rather ruthless love) sum up Irene (if occasionally not Attolia) pretty well.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Hey, Rosa? Have you discovered the Conspiracy Room yet? It's the link on the left of Sounis. It's our chat room. Perhaps a tech person can point you to the password to get in. I think you need to be there...alot! I'm lonely...

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

I would love to join. XD Don't often have time for a real chat (GAH summer studies ;_;), but I'd love to. How would I find one of these tech people? :D

[beatlelove927.livejournal.com]

I like their relationship at certain points, and not so much at others.

In QoA, I didn't really support it, mostly because he had never had a real conversation with her no matter how much he watched her. When I saw that they had devolpment in KoA, that they loved each other, and most importantly, that Gen was loosening Irene and Irene was bringing Gen to his full potential, then I started to love it. So I don't know if it should have started, but now I'm glad it did!

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

I think I said before, I would have been very interested by their relationship in KoA if I hadn't read the first two books. DX They were cool together.

But I couldn't like it completely, because I remembered how they'd gotten there. DX

[willow-41z.livejournal.com]

Welcome to Sounis! I remember feeling like you the first time I read Queen of Attolia, too.

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

Thank you!! ;DDDDD

Getting into the Conspiracy Room

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Ok, I put this up on one of the threads but you may never find it at this point, lol!

If you go the the "User Info" link at the left of the main Sounis page, I believe there is a link to the password to the chat room. It is case-sensitive, btw.

Hope to see you there!

Conspiracy Room, continued

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

...It's under "About", above the button for the guest map. Hope you find it!

[gamwyn.livejournal.com]

On my first read-through of the series, I figured from the back cover copy of QoA (the "steal something the queen thought she had sacrificed long ago" bit) that there would be a romance, but I remained unspoiled about the whole hand-chopping thing. I was COMPLETELY shocked. And appalled. And disturbed. And wondering how the heck they could fall in love *now*. But... somehow they did. And somehow it works for me. It's part of what makes the whole series so intriguing. I really like Irene. The vulnerability in her character, the humanness that Gen manages to brings back out in her... Really touching and compelling stuff.

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Well, if you like it...? XD

[goldenveila.livejournal.com]

I realize that I'm a little late to the party and it's possible that no one will read this... but I did want to add my thoughts anyway.

One thing that bothers me, just a little, about this post is the implication by a lot of people that it's pretty much inevitable that one likes Irene after repeat readings, or once you "understand" her. Like if you explain why this or that happened, it will all make sense. But here's the thing. It's just as valid to not like a character for your own reasons. Sure, she's strong. She did a lot of bad things to keep her position of power, and sometimes it haunts her. Her relationship with Gen is a bit messed up and certainly unconventional, but they apparently love each other. That's their own business...so to speak, since they're fictional.

But does that mean I, or Rosa, or anyone else have to like it? No. There are lots of reasons not to like a person, in real life or in fiction.

That's my two cents, take it or leave it. :P I love Gen, love Sophos (and other characters), love the world that MWT created. Do I like Irene? Not particularly. She's complex, but not someone that I'd say I find very appealing. It's interesting to read about, and that doesn't at all mean I dislike the second and third books. All I wanted to point out is that fictional characters appeal to different people in different ways, and there's no one way to interpret a story or a relationship in that story. That's it. :)

[rosalui.livejournal.com]

...I love you. *_* Can I hug you? *watery eyes* Let's be friends. XD