Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

Yah! I'm glad you approve. My first assumption was like yours, but I just noticed I could be wrong. I also agree that if Gen did do it on purpose, it might be because he was annoyed with Ambiades (who wouldn't be?).

Yep, Gen called Ambiades "Lord of Rags and Tatters" just a moment before the comb incident. Ambiades's pack was open; and as Gen walked by, he could have seen the comb and noticed the contrast between it and the ratty cloak.

Yah! There are actually other fans of "Skip Beat!" on this comm. That is one of my favorite manga. I really love that icon, because I think Ren and Kyoko look extra kawaii in super-deform mood. If you'll notice, the bottom of the question mark is shaped like a heart. Heee... heeeee...

*thinks KyokoxShou is cute but is an ultra supporter of KyokoxRen*

I may have convinced TLE to read it, but I'm not sure if she gave up on it or not. Maybe you can help me convince her it's wonderful. I know she would really like the "Dark Moon" and "Box R" acting arcs.

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viviolo.livejournal.com

Haha, it's hilarious that the cloak moment actually exists! Because I totally thought it was a product of my fevered imagination while I was typing it up. (I haven't read The Thief in a while, can you tell?)

Yay, Skip Beat! fan! And I like that your icon shows their ridiculous height difference, hee. *ships madly, though a tiny, dark corner of her heart thinks that Kyoko/Shou is cute too ;____;*

Oh, I've tried to get others into it too (like

zumie_ashlen! It's very hard to convince people that it's not just another tired shoujo retread. But it really isn't, since the the female characters are actually allowed to kick butt. For instance, consider the absolute best part about the manga/anime, the concentration of pure awesome that is Kyoko! Dear, lovely Kyoko, who probably wouldn't be at all out of place in a horror movie. As the monster. <333

*/end rant*

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I think the height difference is super cute. And no... I do not giggle when they stand next to each another. Really...

Yeah... I tried to hate Shou. I really did, but there's just this adorable side to him that makes up for the narcissism. Almost... He really won me over during the Prisoner PV when he fought with Kyoko, and the director said they acted like they were stupid in love. They are just... cute....together, but I've always thought of it in a sibling sort of way not in a romantic fashion.

Yep! I think each of Nakumura's characters have a Ju-on side to them.

*notice icon*

Especially Kyoko and Ren. When she stormed the music store with her bike, she won me over for life. Ren won me over the moment he threw Kyoko out of the LME office building.

Ahhhaaaa! So funny!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

*this connection has been severed by Kyoko's minions*

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zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com

DARNIT I'M ALMOST HALFWAY THROUGH STOP PRESSURING ME

*replies eons late*

Shou is fantastic because I love fail-y characters (hence my love of Costis, maybe?). But Kyoko/Ren is cute too. Actually, I just want a show about Shou failing at everything. I support that.

And damn you guys have The Thief memorized or something, I barely remembered the comb thing just reading this. :X

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Haven't had a chance to read very much... really sorry. I swear I haven't give up on it.

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No need to apologize, dear. Take your time. Just promise me you won't give up on it. Once you're a few volumes in, you will start getting hooked. I also think you would appreciate and enjoy the focus on acting and acting interpretations.

If it's quicker, try watching the anime first. The manga and anime are almost identical.

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I'll try the anime - I've been having trouble manuvering the manga, and I don't know if that's my computer, the website, or my own ineptitude. ;-)

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A combination is the most likely reason. The translation on Manga Fox is so-so. It's a very literal translation, and often does not make sense if one does not have an understanding of Japanese. But... It's free and done by ameture translators. What can I say.

That's why with the manga, I recommend picking up the volumes from the library. The professional translation, as well the culture notes in the back will help you a lot.

The way Nakumura-sensei sets the text up is a bit unique. She really focuses on using the art to give the words their full effect. She streams lines across several panels sometimes. I know that might be difficult if you are not used to reading manga.

Watching the anime first will help you follow it better. You shouldn't have as much trouble with the anime. Remember, you can always e-mail me if you have questions.

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savetheworld42.livejournal.com

I agree that Gen was probably trying to prove himself by taking the comb. He wanted to show that he didn't have to depend on anyone else for his own needs. Either that, or he just has a habit of using whatever he needs, regardless of whether they belong to him.

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beatlelove927.livejournal.com

And I love you for having a Glee icon!

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I don't think so. The comb incident and the "lord of rags and tatters" comment come at the same time (p.90 in the 1st ed) before the mentions of treason (p. 113) and the "who else are you serving" comment that was "a casual dig" but "hit a target". So, the comb and cloak along with Ambiades' background are clues that get put together later when one spy recognizes another. But, as far as Gen is concerned, he's there for one purpose . . . the Gift . . . and smoking out spies might get in the way of that. If the Magus figured out that Ambiades was a spy, he might have changed his plan.

As far as stealing the comb goes, it was useful, there, and of high quality. I don't think stealing the comb was as strategic as stealing the pocket knife and making sure he had something to tie his hair back with.

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I'm not saying he did it because he wanted to smoke out spies, but because he was irritated with Ambiades and wanted to get the Magus on his case. He does loose his temper sometimes. It also put Ambiades on his toes. One could see why he wouldn't want the Magus to see it. This part in particular makes me think so...

"I looked at the comb in my hand as if perplexed." p114

Notice the "as if" like he was faking being perplexed. It seemed to me that he was putting on a show that he had no idea what was going on and had no idea why the magus would ask about it. Like he had just picked up a random comb. That makes me think he took it out on purpose, because he wanted the Magus to see it too.

Yeah, I don't think he stole it later on for any particular reason. Other than to annoy Ambiades.

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Well, he did steal the comb. Of course he's going to dissemble. :)

He has a habit of stealing valuable things from people he's annoyed with. Using the comb could as easily be a manner of flaunting it when he can't dedicate it on the altar to Eugenides. Ambiades would probably lose face if he made a stink about it, even if it hadn't been more valuable than he should be able to afford. I don't recall much in the way of clues to Ambiades' poverty before that scene.

There are enough in-character reasons for the actions and reactions for me to accept the narrative comment later that Gen and Ambiades "had exchanged our information involuntarily beside the dystopia" (p. 210), so Gen wouldn't have been clued in enough to suspect Ambiades of being much other than an unlikable snob earlier.

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viviolo.livejournal.com

I don't know, the "who else are you serving" jab seems oddly specific for Gen to have just pulled out of thin air. I would contend that he's had his suspicions for while (since the comb!), and that they're just now being confirmed by Ambiades' overreaction.

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"Who else are you serving" is a pretty direct riposte to Ambiades' jab, which I think did hit home a lot harder than Ambiades expected because Gen was serving someone other than himself, and had put himself through months of prison for it. He's still got a temper like gunpowder, and pretty sharp intuition. I agree that the comb was a big clue, but I don't think Gen had enough info to put things together at the time he stole the comb. It could easily have been be a treasured gift. It's the recognition in the "who else are you serving" exchange that slots the pieces together.

Gen's long game is pretty sophisticated here, but I think it's in these exchanges, in his learning to keep his temper some in order not to blow his cover, that he's developing the subtlety we'll see in QoA and KoA.

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He has a habit of stealing valuable things from people he's annoyed with.

She liked to take the things people were most proud of... People were careful not to offend her.

FAMILY RESEMBLANCE, METHINKS!

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I bet it's a personality trait most of the Thieves of Eddis had too. :)

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I've always found that description of his mother a bit disquieting. Much as I love Gen, I think I would have hated her.

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Really? She sounds so much like Gen - who is also very nasty to people he doesn't like. No matter how much we love him, he isn't nice.

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Well, the author stacks the deck in his favor, because most of the people we see him being nasty to aren't very nice theselves. I can't offhand think of any examples where we're shown Gen treating people badly -- especially to the extent of permanently depriving them of the things they're most proud of -- just because he's personaly offended by them. But I think there's a reason, beyond cousinly neutrality, why Helen isn't wholly on Gen's side in his battles with his cousins.

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I was under the impression his mom did the same thing - stealing the jewelry of people who were over-proud. The word, "flaut" makes me think that.

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Well, Gen's thieving, to the extent it is thieving and not actually espionage, is the least attractive aspect of his character, and if he stole my favorite earrings, I might hate him, too. And the thought of people having to be careful not to offend his mother, for fear of losing the thing they most valued, grates on me.

I wonder if Eugenidies the Thief-God would actually be angry at a victim who had the chutzpah to steal their stuff back from his altar.

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Ouch! Poor Gen's mother. But... Aren't you being a bit unfair?

I highly doubt that Gen's mom was a prima-donna who became sworn enemies with anyone who happened to tread upon her toes. The Thieves were feared and (at least the official Thieves) were never popular. Consequentially, they were isolated and ridiculed.

Notice what one of Gen's relatives says in "Thief!". The girl said that if Gen's father hadn't married SO low he might have been able to become king.

Gen's describes his mother as being called "Queen Thief", because she stole people's hearts. He also says she was a court favorite. One can therefor infer that she couldn't have had that many enemies. She probably only became enemies with those who were determined to become enemies with her.

Same with Gen. He was not a helpless victim when it came to his cousins, but he was ganged up on and calculatedly gone after. You might also notice that Gen prefers to be the thorn-in-everyone's-side, rather then be pitied by those he cares for. Wouldn't stealing accomplish replacing their pity with exasperation? Not to mention show that he has an edge. Show that he is not helpless?

I'll even say that not even I am saint enough to be that gone after (your head being held down in a water cache?) and not desire some sort of retaliation. It's merely being human. One must become quite strong in order overcome that tendency. Honestly in my opinion, stealing someones earrings seems pretty light in comparison to being beat up.

If Gen stole my earrings, it would probably be because it served me right; or because they were ugly, in which case I should thank him.

One more thing... Gen states in "The Thief" that no one in Eddis truly believes in the gods, so it's not Eugendies they are afraid of. (although they might be a little superstitious) It's breaking away from custom and risking being ridiculed for it.

I suspect that your judgment of Gen's and his mother's personality is somewhat over-simplified. Perhaps you are misunderstanding them?

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That's Lady Jane for you. I'm trying to explain what I mean in little, unclear comments, and she goes off to write an essay on it. ;-)

Well said, Lady Jane!!!

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Nobody has enough information to form an accurate judgment of Gen's mother's character; we're told very little about her, and what little we are told isn't entirely consistent. I said I found what Gen said about his mother stealing the things people were most proud of "disquieting" and I do. Gen has told Sophos that his mother was never the Queen's Thief -- she died before her father, and the title passed directly to him. There's nothing to suggest that she was isolated and despised, or picked on by anyone. To the contrary, as you point out, "'She was a favorite at the court and was called Queen Thief but not Queen's Thief. They said she stole people's hearts away. She certainly stole their jewels and wore them herself or sometimes dedicated them. She liked to take the things that people were most proud of. So if you flaunted your new emeralds, you were likely to see them next on Eugenides' altar, and once dedicated they were irretrievable. People were careful not to offend her.'" There's nothing there to suggest that anyone picked on her, that she only stole from people who had offended her, or that she was justified in stealing "the things that people were most proud of." To the contrary, the passage says people loved her and were afraid of her. I don't think there's anything "simplistic" about finding that disquieting. I also don't think you'd be all that philosophical if somebody stole your favorite, valuable earrings, that were perhaps a gift from your lover, or a family heirloom. I mean, "Oh, fine, I deserved that?" Really? My mother had nearly all of her jewelry stolen by thieves who got in using a realtor's lockbox, and thirty years later I can still remember her cry of dismay when she discovered the loss. (I still miss those jade and gold bracelets, too.)

Gen is a complicated, flawed, but ultimately heroic character. Being a thief -- an actual thief, and not the Queen's Thief, or a secret agent -- is a flaw in his character. It's understandable that he stole things from his cousins, under the circumstances, but it is not admirable, and I don't think MWT intends us to think of it as admirable. He outgrows that aspect of his character pretty early in the series; I don't think he actually steals anything from anyone after The Thief. What he's doing in Attolia's palace is more like espionage (or stalking), and of course "stealing" the Magus or the Queen of Attolia is not the equivalent of stealing jewelry.

When I asked about Eugenides the god, I wasn't asking why people didn't take their jewelry back. They didn't think the gods are real -- but we know they are. I was speculating on what the actual god would think about somebody daring enough to steal from his altar. Gen eats the bread left for the gods, and nothing bad happens, right?

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It's not admirable - I agree that thieving just because she wants to was bad. I was under the impression that you thought Gen's thieving was ok, while his mom's wasn't. That would have bothered me.

I think a lot of the Thieves are under the impression that they are in charge of dealing out punishment - so even if they're not, both Gen and his mom are at least under the impression that they're in the right. :-)

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No, no, I never meant to suggest that Gen's thieving was okay, just that it was (sort of) excusable in light of his age and circumstances, which are very different from his mother's.

My sense of what the Thieves' mission was is "serving Eddis," and that they're more like intelligence agents than actual thieves. (The Magus describes the "current Thief" as "someone exalted.") That is, they have all the skills of thieves, the dexterity and agility and ability to move through crowds and palaces unnoticed, and pick pockets and the like, but they're supposed to use those skills in the service of Eddis, not to satisfy their own personal desires. Gen in the actual time of the books, as opposed to Eddis's memories or other flashbacks to when he's a pre-teen or young adolescent, is very much in that mode. In The Thief, he's on a mission for Eddis -- the realm of Eddis as well as his cousin, Helen, both of which are under threat from Sounis. He talks about stealing earrings, but I don't think in the time of the books, he actually does that; indeed, he does the opposite, giving Attolia earrings. (How I love the use of those earrings! Does anybody here know Red Adam's Lady, where there's a similar device with the heroine's use of the hero's name to signify that she's really his wife at the point where he's in the deepest trouble at the hands of his enemies?) In The Queen of Attolia, there's plainly a personal element in the way he keeps going back to Attolia's palace, but Eddis has asked him to do it, too, he isn't just there on a personal frolic. In the books, we never see Gen stealing in retaliation, or out of some personal whim; the things he steals are needed tools for his mission. It's interesting, and maybe a little ironic under the circumstances, that Attolia imposes on Gen the traditional punishment for a thief, cutting off a hand, rather than the punishment for a spy, which is hanging or shooting. It's spying that he's really "guilty" of.

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I agree with what Lady Jane said - I expect Gen's mom didn't like people picking on her either, and... she retaliated. I'm not saying either of them is innocent, but I do think the people they stole from probably deserved it, just like Breia did.

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Well, as I said in my reply to Lady Jane, I don't think there's any evidence that she was picked on. And I think morally it's highly problematic to say that people deserve to have their things, especially "the things they were most proud of," stolen. That a picked-on kid retaliates in the most effective way he can is one thing, but that an adult woman, widely popular, demonstrates by her willingness to steal valuable things from you that you'd best not offend her is quite another. Gen's mother pretty clearly was not a pariah; she was the wife of the king's highly respected brother and a favorite at court. If someone were rude to her, there were plenty of more appropriate ways she could have dealt with it. Stealing their jewelry and wearing it? Look what that is saying: I can openly steal from you, flaunt my power and status publicly, and you can't do anything about it. I can't imagine what one of her in-laws or anyone else could do to "deserve" that, and I think it's pretty detestable.

Remember Gen stole Ornon's sheep. He was apparently pretty offended by something Ornon had done. Ornon turns out to be a pretty decent guy. Did he really "deserve" to have his sheep stolen? And that one seems much more like a prank than what Gen's mother was up to.

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From the little description of his mother that we get, I imagine her as having Gen's wit and edge, but also the kind of charisma that Helen and Agape have.

I can't help but want to like someone who would dance on the rooftops of the palace.

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