Random Question

[chachic.livejournal.com]

I have a question but I'm not sure if this has been discussed here before and I just can't find the answer. Anyway, I was wondering why Attolia, the country, is named that way and not Attolis so it would've been consistent with Eddis and Sounis? Or are the countries named after the current ruler?

Comments

[zougla.livejournal.com]

That's a really good question. I never really thought about it much.

I speak Modern Greek at home, so I'm just basing this on my (meager) intuitions about the language. But I'll go out on a limb here and say that it's probably because they have different genders. All nouns in Greek have gender, even place names.

So Attolia would be feminine. Sounis definitely sounds like a neuter name (not feminine or masculine), and would be likely be pronounced Sounio in Modern Greek now. Eddis is harder for me to figure. I guess I would err on masculine, but that's just speculation on my part! also I don't know if this would be different with an ancient Greek spin.

I don't know if that is really plausible, but that's my two cents. :)

[chachic.livejournal.com]

Oooh Modern Greek seems like an interesting language.

Eddis is masculine in the book because Eddis (the character) was supposed to be Eddia when her father died but she became Eddis because the gods willed it so.

[crazededdisian.livejournal.com]

Plus Attolia has lilies.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

I was actually just thinking about this question earlier today! I didn't really come up with an answer, though.

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

I had this on my mind earlier, too. I'm not sure, though. On average, would you think countries are thought of as masculine or feminine? Hmm.

On the other hand, until I read the short story about young Helen, I'd never thought of "Eddia" as the potential title for a sovereign. So I associated each country with their sovereign...so it didn't seem weird that Attolia was feminine.

Hmm.

Plus, I think Attolia sounds nicer. I love Gen, but "Attolis" has yet to grow on me.

[zougla.livejournal.com]

On average they are feminine (in Greek! btw). But that is a good point that the gender in these cases is going to be derived from the gender of the ruler.

[writtenfp.livejournal.com]

I was wondering about that too! Nothing else to really add to that, haha. but I would like to see what other people have to say.

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Oh! oh! pick me!

I think that each country name is a root from a name, probably originally in Archaic: Edd-, Soun-, Attol-. Lots of Archaic words became names in Demotic (for example, Sophos means wisdom in Archaic). The names have both female and male versions. This still happens today: Justin/Justine, Charlie/Charleen, Alexander/Alexandra. The original rulers of each country were named one of these names, I.E. the first ruler of Eddis was called Eddis and the first ruler of Sounis was called Sounis. BUT. Why is the modern name for the country of Attolia feminine? BECAUSE THE FIRST RULER OF ATTOLIA WAS A WOMAN.

But this is pure speculation. I honestly don't have the slightest idea.

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

I explained it to myself by thinking that the name (or at least the suffix) of the countries changed through the years to match their ruler every time the crown was passed on, and that was why, at the time of Gen's adventures, Eddis rules Eddis, Attolia rules Attolia, and so on. What a pain for cartographers, though.

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

I know, right? Although I suppose if the countries were really that male-oriented, they would assume that there would always be a male ruler, not even preparing for the possibility of a queen.

But wait. Isn't Attolia called Attolia even in the Magus' old papers? Seems like it has to have been... Don't know. If the suffix changes, why isn't it called Attolis now?

Did you get my email?

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

Uh... the Magus refers to it as Attolia, and mentions his old papers and 'reliable documents (that) did survive from before the invaders'. But yeah. I have no idea.

Yes, I have it! Sorry to keep you and tiegirl waiting. I've been working crazy Christmas hours, so I'll finish up my comments now and send it on back.

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Hm. It sure would be cool if mwt could tell us, wouldn't it? *cough cough*

But that's not how mwt rolls, and I guess it's better that way.

And you're right about the society not being that male oriented, at least in Eddis... Oh, wait! Eddis remained uninvaded by the invaders and the merchant empire, correct? maybe those societies were more patriarchal, but Eddis remained not so because it was secluded (something similar happened in other societies, when they were merged with the Roman empire). That would also explain why the Eddisian pantheon has a female head, while the new pantheon has a male head, and why Attolia chooses the Eddisian goddess as a model.

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

The new panthenon has a male head? Say what? I missed that!
Yep, Eddis remains uninvaded, and it seems to me as if it's also a lot smaller and more clannish, so, like PR says below, it'd be easier for a young female Queen to be accepted because everyone would know her anyway.
In TT (which I'm currently working my way through, painstakingly listying characters) it says Attolia is deliberately imitating Hephestia to remind her subjects of her ultimate power. So I don't think it's so much an Eddisian panthenon so much as the panthenon of the whole region, although there's a new set of deities transplanted on in the low-land countries. But probably, considering how the invaders and their gods are recent history, the countries seem to still revolve around village life, and how Attolia uses the old panthenon to symbolise power, I bet the old panthenon still looms large in their culture. After all, they're the ones everyone calls on for a really satisfying curse.
(Hmmm, tangential, much? :P)

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

And don't worry about the fanfic - I totally understand about Christmas being hectic. Just wanted to make sure the email didn't get lost is cyberspace. :-)

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

I suppose they're not *that* male-oriented, either. Sophos mentions in TT that they (Attolia) have a Queen, like Eddis, so the line of descent must pass from parent to child, like it does in Sounis. And the Eddisian court don't seem to have any problem with a very young, female queen. On the other hand, young royal women are used as bargaining chips, at least in Attolia, and Attolia was expected to fade into the background after marriage.

[pigrescuer.livejournal.com]

I think Attolia was traditionally male-oriented, which is why Attolia had such difficulty holding her throne*. Eddis didn't have the problem because her court is mostly made up of her own extended family, whereas Attolia's seems to be pretty much unrelated barons.

I think if Sounis (or Sophos) produced a female heir, she owuld have difficulty holding the throne too. Especially since the country's in civil war. ^_^

[pigrescuer.livejournal.com]

*it took me a very very long time to spell that

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

You wouldn't believe how long 'line of descent' took me :P

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think you're right - Eddis' country's clannishness probably helped her a LOT.
Hmmm, clannish. You know how Megan said the Eddisians were partly based on the Scots, and she could see them wielding claymores? I'm beginning to see that now.

On a side note, I wonder how much having been invaded in recent history contributes to the instability of Attolia and Sounis? Succession squabbles and civil war all over the place.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

I never stopped to think why the countries *themselves* had different endings on their names, mostly because it's kind of so random in our world how countries end up with their names in the first place. It depends on a lot of different converging historical conditions what the eventual commonly-recognized name of a place becomes.

Also, at least in French (which I speak a little of), there are several irregular masculine or feminine countries that just have to be memorized. So I assumed the countries in the books would be the same way---it was just an irregularity that Attolia was feminine-sounding. Or, actually, since I have a French prejudice toward feminine countries, it was irregular that both of the other two were masculine-sounding.

But after reading the Eddis short story, and seeing how the Attolia/Attolis titles worked in book 3, I've always been pretty sure that the names of the countries stay the same all the time. Each country has two titles---one for a male ruler and one for a female ruler. The titles are based on the country's name, but not specifically on the fact that its name may be masculine or feminine. I guess.

It would be great if we knew whether the names were Archaic or Demotic. Just out of curiosity.

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

Maybe it just so happened that when things like borders and reighns were being consolidated and formalised, with maps and documents and so forth, that's what the countries were commonly known as, and so that's how they stayed.
But I think you're probably right, and chance plays a much greater part in it than we'd like to admit ("It's a story, damn it, there must be a reason!").

Although I can't help wondering if MWT's got this whole history tucked away somewhere, along with the explanation of Eddisian pronounciation... (hint, hint!)

[crazededdisian.livejournal.com]

So they seem to have cleared that up, but I wonder, what was Sounis's wife called?

Eddis/Eddia, Attolia/Attolis, and Sounis/Sounia???

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

That would seem to be logical...not that who we know as the current king of Sounis ever had a wife. (Or did he? Am I missing some backstory from the Thief? It's been a while since I reread.)

Warning---Although this is speculation, it might be a spoiler if you haven't read the online excerpt for the 4th book:

Maybe we'll find out in CoK. We know that Sounis was at least engaged to Agape; maybe he got a chance to marry her before he died. Or maybe Eddis will get to have two titles!

[crazededdisian.livejournal.com]

I don't think Sounis ever married. There's certainly no indication of it, and I'm pretty sure Gen says something to Eddis about it, like, "Poor besotted fool. He wants you, though I'm not sure why." Or something like that. (Will someone bring up the accurate quote? And Eddis's reply: "I'm glad you've remained a thief, Gen. As a courtly flatterer you lack something." Heh.) So no, you're not missing anything. I meant Sounis's mother.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

True.
*Spoiler-ish*
WE all assume that Sophos and Helen are going to get together
the two possiblities that are bothering me:

a) what if they dont? I mean it's only speculation
we have no clear cut thing that says *Helen will marry sophos done deal* If you think about it, Gen only got to marry Attolia because they needed to, so what if the circumstances change? What if HELEN DOESNT MARRY SOPHOS. OH, GOSH.

b) What if Sophos joins Eddis not the other way around, I think I'd much prefer that. I like Eddis with her own country, and can't see her as Sounia.

[longlegs21.livejournal.com]

Isn't Eddis supposed to be the last ruler of her country? Or am I making that up?

[chachic.livejournal.com]

Isn't Eddis supposed to be the last ruler of her country?

I think so too. Maybe she'll marry Sophos and she'll become Sounia (or whatever the female version of Sounis is) and the Eddisians will have to evacuate to Attolia/Sounis.

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

You're not making it up, it's in the short story at the back of the KoA paperback.

[chachic.livejournal.com]

I was wondering about the same thing! Eddis/Eddia and Attolis/Attolia have been mentioned but we've never heard of Sounia.

[tencups-i-swear.livejournal.com]

I'm glad someone finally asked this question. I ask it to myself every week in a vain hope that some idea would present itself but I always forgot to ask it on here. XD

[chachic.livejournal.com]

I've asked myself this question a couple of times already but I also keep forgetting to ask it here. It's a good thing I remembered this time.

[senri.livejournal.com]

This is a late response, but Eddis took on the masculine name herself because the gods willed it, as a previous commenter mentions... Attolia on the other hand was once married. Eddis deliberately flaunted the convention, while Attolia was a counterpart to her king Attolis and then killed him before taking the reins of the country herself. It seems that she maintained the feminine name though. Maybe if she'd been sole ruler from the start she'd be called Attolis.