Community Readalong, week 2: The Thief, chapters 8-12

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

Reminders: Please refer questions about leading discussions to Jade, and please keep all Conspiracy of Kings comments spoiler-free as a courtesy to us poor souls who haven't read it yet. Thanks!

(All page numbers in this post are from the hardcover Greenwillow edition, with the ugly statue of Hephestia on the front.)

First line: “ ‘We’ll have to wait until nearly midnight,’ said the magus. ‘We might as well get something to eat.’” (115)

Last line: “You’re welcome, my queen.” (219)

As Jade noted last week, the second half of this book is where the plot really takes off—objects are stolen, the Attolian Guard is evaded, prisons are escaped, and secrets are revealed.  We also witness Gen’s confrontation with the gods he didn’t believe in, learn of Ambiades’ treachery, and hear for the first time about the Mede Empire.  Furthermore, we are introduced to the queen of Attolia, the captain of her guard, the queen of Eddis, and Eddis’ minister of war.  And Pol dies.

One great thing about this book is that even with all the exciting plots, we get character development too.  Gen gains respect for his companions and risks his life to help the magus and Sophos escape from Attolia, while the magus comes to respect Gen in turn, believing he deserves to know about the Mede Empire, for instance, rather than treating him as a tool.  And we, the readers, get socked again and again by Gen’s brilliance.  (At least, I do.)

Lines I like:

“ ‘This way,’ I hissed, ‘when they hear us chatting like happy sparrows in our nest, they won’t immediately be able to find us.” (187) [Gen’s turns of phrase delight me.]

“A thief never makes a noise by accident.”  (194) [Another reminder that Gen is usually deliberate about his actions, even when he appears to be out of control.]

“Oh, I believe that Attolia sends best wishes that the Queen’s Thief is well and hopes that she will have a chance to entertain him for a longer period sometime in the future.” (208)  [Be careful what you wish for, Attolia!]

Let’s hear from you! What do you have to say about this week’s chapters?  Do you have favorite lines?  Plot moments that amaze you?  Moments that resonate either with this book’s ending or with the rest of the series?  What are/were your initial impressions of characters we met for the first time in this reading?  Any eulogies for Pol out there?  What about reactions to the reveal(s) of the ending in general—either from this read, or remembered from your first one?

Next week: The Queen of Attolia, chapters 1-7

Comments

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Yah, more discussion!

I must say, my favorite part is probably when Gen asks if Sophos can swim, and the Magus and Pol get really nervous. It speaks volumes for how much they all look out for sweet Sophos (that makes me smile), but it turns out Sophos CAN swim. This leads me to believe that Sophos is not as helpless as he seems, and has a hidden strength, which I am very excited to see in book #4.

There was one line that caught my notice...

"Tell me," I said "or I'll get up and strangle you with one hand."

-p267 of The Thief

Can you say deja vu...

"You know you can't strangle a man with one hand?" he said very seriously. "It's probably why I only have one."

-340 of The King of Attolia

So, so, so...

Foreshadowing or coincidence?

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

I've come to believe that in these books, nothing is coincidence...although obviously Gen has no idea of the repercussions of his strangling statement. (Also note that, thank goodness, it's his left hand that's currently incapacitated. Otherwise it would be way too creepy.)

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I think Megan's subconscious planted all kinds of things she was later able to play with.

[ilysia-039.livejournal.com]

Oh, I do love book discussion!

Favorite Line: "Do you want to write a letter to your sweetheart?" he asked.
"What makes you think my sweetheart can read? Shut up and get me a piece of paper." (Greenwillow paperback, pg 174)

So, throughout this part I mainly noticed two things: 1) how many clues there are to the fact that Gen's both stolen the stone and isn't quite what he seems. I keep asking myself How could you have missed this? And this and 2) Sophos seems so young. I know he's only a little younger than Gen, but he just seems... very young. From what I've heard about ACoK, that's going to change.

A few other things:

"Discretion prevented me from saying that I thought she was a fiend from the underworld and that mountain lions couldn't force me to enter her service." (pg 233)

Oh, Gen. Don't say such things.

"No one was going to start a war over me..." (pg 245)

A very interesting comment, particularly considering what we know happens in Queen. I had to wonder if Gen was simply underestimating his own worth in the court's eyes, of if Eddis really wouldn't have gone to war over him at this point.

[starlady38.livejournal.com]

Sophos seems so young. I know he's only a little younger than Gen, but he just seems... very young.

So true. Especially compared to Gen, who would be old for his age even if he were only what he presented himself as.

I had to wonder if Gen was simply underestimating his own worth in the court's eyes, of if Eddis really wouldn't have gone to war over him at this point.

I tend to think that Gen underestimates his own worth and reputation, to an extent. Iirc, he was surprised that Eddis went to war over him in Queen, right?

[magicsandwiches.livejournal.com]

Agree about Sophos! All that blushing.

I marked the comment about starting a war, too. There are a number of lines that connect in freaky ways to the other books, it's crazy, especially considering Megan wasn't planning on later books.

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

I do the, "How could I have missed this?" thing all the time when I read The Thief. It's kind of fun, actually.

And I also agree about Sophos--he does seem very young. I don't think I'd grasped, the first time I read this, how young Gen himself is, which makes Sophos even younger. I think I'll be ready to see him grow up when I finally get to read the next book, but...he's kind of loveable just as he is.

And, "mountain lions couldn't force me to enter her service." Well, technically, he never does enter her service, does he? Though I'm pretty sure he calls her a fiend in QoA, too.

[starlady38.livejournal.com]

I wish I'd read this book before I read Queen, but it's great reading Thief again and watching all the clues being so carefully sewn. I've also been paying much more attention to Sophos this time around.

Having subsequently gotten a degree in classics, this time around I can also recognize the depth of the research that went into the worldbuilding. It's pretty phenomenal.

[ilysia-039.livejournal.com]

I love Megan's worldbuiding. I think reading her books made my standards for literary worlds go up dramatically... it's actually rather funny: I find myself comparing fictional worlds to that in Queen's Thief all the time... and being disappointed.

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

MWT's world building is UBER-WIN!!!!

I was totally inspired after realizing how complex her world was. It's impossible for me to write anymore, I'm constantly overwhelmed by ideas of what sort of world the story takes place in. I have millions of worlds and few plots to operate within them.

[magicsandwiches.livejournal.com]

This is stuff most of you know already, but since I wrote in the margins this time around, here are my notes (all page numbers are from the paperback with the Gift on the front):

1. p 153 Gen tells the Magus that when someone's clever, they're told they're clever enough to steal Hamiathes's Gift and also what happens when someone gets caught. "He [the magus} wasn't surprised that I knew. I suppose crime and punishment are things that most thieves keep track of." But that's NOT how he knows.

2. p 193 Gen shows the magus the Gift and the magus says, "You are a wonder, Gen. I will carve your name on a stele outside the basilica, I promise." And Gen laughs. Heh, so did I. Since Gen knows there's no way that's going to happen.

3. p 195 "He offered me two pieces of leather thongm one longer than the other. I tied up the end of my braid with the long one and kept the short one to use later." Gee, what for?
p 197 "I brushed shoulders with the magus for just a moment...." Heh, I so caught this the first time I read it and I thought I had the big plot twist in the bag. Little did I know there was so much more to come!
p 199 "I stared at him with my mouth hanging open like a horrified gargoyle." Nice act, Gen.
p 200 "I very carefully rebraided my hair and watched." Heh.
p 220 "When he didn't notice the bump under my hair at the base of my skull, I gave up protesting."

4. p 205 Gen's little act of deferring to people (and it WAS an act) is now over. We really get a taste of true Gen in a rage, snarling at everyone--even the magus--and generally acting like he's superior. Different than we (or the other characters) have seen him before.

5. p 216 "I'd sworn to the gods from the king's prison that I wasn't going to embroil myself in any more stupid plans." Heh.

6. p 233 "I have no particular loyalty to the king of Sounis, your majesty." Truth!

7. p 235 The god Eugenides says "His wife died in winter. His three children live with their aunt in Eia." He's talking about the magus, right?

8. p 240 Gen displays extensive knowledge of Attolia "This is a ledge that runs around the entire castle." And p 249 "There's a bridge."

9. Cross-reference pp 245 and 262. Gen's bedroom!

10. Cross-reference pp 262 and 143. Gen feels safer with mountains rising up around him.

11. p 223 "Something unpleasant had happened." pp 226-227 "That was the muddled and awful part. I'd felt my life dragged out with the sword, but in the end my life wouldn't go. It had stretched between me and the sword. I think that only the power of the gods could have kept me alive, but my living was at the same time an offence to them. I should have died, but instead the pain went on and on. Dying would have been so much easier." p 273 "There is something horrible and frightening and, I'd discovered, very, very painful about being trapped in this life when it is time to move on." The effects of Hamiathes's Gift, which didn't completely register the first time I read the book. And when he says something unpleasant happened, he's not just referring to having killed someone.

12. The last page where Gen reveals why he's telling the story. I realized Gen isn't necessarily being misleading when he leaves out certain facts in his narrative. After all, he's writing it down for Eddis, and is thinking of sending a copy to the magus. Both people already know the pertinent gaps in the narrative, just not all the details.

13. Also, I really loved and highlighted any little snippets about Gen's parents. SO fascinating!

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

These are all great observations! When I read most of these places this time, I kept going, "How did I miss this the first time?" So many lovely clues.

Re. #7: I think the reference is to the soldier Gen killed, who he's feeling guilty about. That was my impression, anyway.

[ilysia-039.livejournal.com]

Oh, ye gods, #5. No more stupid plans indeed.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Ok. Am I alone (well, no, because Elf and I discussed it and feel the same) in thinking that the whole passage in #11 is just about Gen's feeling of having had a nearly mortal wound that was very painful, and not about the effects of the Gift at all? I read it as just his feelings about almost being killed. I never got the impression that it was because he'd been made immortal by bearing the Gift that kept him from dying, there, but just the fact that it wasn't really a mortal wound after all. I just don't know...I am waffling...sitting on the fence...etc. He stole the Gift, so it wasn't given to him. He was bearing it, so it should have made him immortal. If you choose to think the gods allowed him to steal the Gift, say, gave it to him, then why was his living an offence to them? And the magus took the Gift from Gen, so he should have died, but then Gen stole it back from him, so Gen should've died. You see what I mean? *throws hands up in air*

I AM NOT WORTHY!!!!!

[mortalasabee.livejournal.com]

Yay discussion!

The first time I read the part in the temple/maze, I was in the back seat of a car at night, and the driver didn’t want the light on. I couldn’t bear to stop reading, so I read it all by the light of my watch. If there is a creepier or more awesome way to read these scenes, I don’t know what it is.

I used to work in my college’s theatre as an electrician, and one day I was working in the building pretty much alone. I went to the basement, opened a door and propped it open with a 20 pound weight. Next time I went down…it had swung itself shut. My first thought? “Do you think there’s some…body in there with you?” Agh!

Favorite lines:
“I pointed out that he’d been no help at the ford. He pointed out that I had climbed a tree. I pointed out that I had no sword. He offered to give me his, point first.”
“Dammit, what are you doing all night?” “Tripping over pry bars.” I told him. “Where’s my breakfast?”
“We’ll go together, Gen,” the Magus said. “No.” “Gen, I won’t leave you again.” Awwww…
“Oh,” she said in irritation and perfect understanding. “It’s you, Eugenides.”
“I cannot tell you how sick I have been of cheap wine and of being dirty….Of having BUGS in my hair…” For some reason, I love that Gen is grossed out by bugs.
“Thank you, thief.” “You’re welcome, my queen.”

I love:
Getting to see Eugenides in his element, first in the maze where we see how truly adept he is at his trade and his intense stubbornness, and then in the escape from Attolia when he cuts all the crap and leads them to safety. This is the real Eugenides, not just Gen the gutter rat thief, and damn is our boy GOOD!
The incidental magic. This isn’t a magical world, but a real one where the gods only very occasionally appear. I appreciate this subtlety, and while I also like books with magical worlds, I like how MWT works the extraordinary into the ordinary so lightly.
When the magus hugs Eugenides like a son. It makes me happy inside.
The scene where Eugenides gets mad when the magus tries to take the ring. I feel like he is showing some of his true stubborn nature here, and the character is showing his real person-hood. Why does he get so mad? I don’t know, and I don’t think he does either. But sometimes, as humans, we grab hold of things and don’t want to let them go. The ring is never mentioned again, but it was important to him in that moment for whatever reason. (side note, MWT has said that she likes to hide references to her favorite books in her own books. She said that there is an object in TT that is word for word identical to one found in The Eagle of the Ninth by Rosemary Sutcliff. I’m pretty sure this ring is it. It also appears in The Lantern Bearers.)
Last discussion I talked about the “one relative” Eugenides loved. Reading it as Eugenides writing the book for Eddis, I think this is really sweet. He’s putting his affection for her here, in writing, knowing that she will read it. I love these two.

Questions:
Why does God Eugenides say that Gen has not offended the gods, and to take the stone? Is it because he is stealing the stone for the sake of his country and his queen? Did any Thieves in former times have the gods’ permission?
How does Eugenides go from this: “Discretion prevented me from saying that I thought she was a fiend from the underworld and that mountain lions couldn’t force me to enter her service” to loving her in the next book? He had, at this point, already seen her dancing under the orange trees, and then in QoA he says that he learned all about her he could to see if she was really the fiend he had heard—was this after TT or before? At this point in TT, did he only know about her from the stories he’d heard?
Since MWT wasn’t planning on writing another book, when she started thinking about it do you think she was just like, “hey, how about I have Eugenides fall in love with that character we saw for two pages? Yeah, that sounds like a great idea!” I mean, I love these plot twists, don’t get me wrong, but as a writer, how do you come up with this sort of stuff?

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

When the magus hugs Eugenides like a son. It makes me happy inside.

I love the follow-up line "or at least like a close relative." It always struck me as Gen being touched by the hug, then brushing it off like a tough guy saying, "I wasn't crying, I had something in my eye" and making a joke out of it.

I think the dolphin ring was in both Sutcliffe books. AND I saw Roman stones like this carved one when I went to Bath, England this summer. So cool.

Seems like after Thief, but before Queen, the Magus sent Gen information about Attolia and he went to see her to decide if she was a fiend or just a woman, alone, trying to rule without the support of her barons. That part in Thief about the mountain lions--he was lying to himself because he didn't understand his feelings and was fighting them. He'd been watching her for years, though.

[kitsune-rains.livejournal.com]

I think QoA, or maybe later, he is explaining his sudden interest in Attolia to someone and he mentions that he had always been in love with her and when he was younger he didn't understand how she could make him feel that way, that he thought she must have been a "fiend from hell."

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

(I freely admit that this post is part of shameless procrastination on my part. However...)

Re. the not offending the gods, Gen later says that he's come to think that each Thief had to go to the temple and take the Gift "only with the gods' approval" (216). So Gen is following, in that sense, a long tradition of Thieves who have the gods' permission to steal, strange as that sounds.

In fact--and this is a new, unedited and unreflected-on thought here--once Gen comes to believe in the gods, I don't think he ever really offends them. As we know from future books, the bad things that happen to him have very little to do with offending the gods and very much to do with their plans for him. Hmm...

thank the gods for sticky notes

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

p 134 - "I had been dreaming again of the lady in the chamber; her hair was held away from her face by a string of dark red stones set in gold." Moira is wearing a Hephestia-style headband? The quote goes on to say she put a check by his name, so it sounds like Moira.

Something I love most about Megan's writing are the phrases that have a fabulous modifier and a noun. For example, on p 142 "huffy silence" and I remember "gloomy silence" and there are lots more, but of course I can't find any just now. But they are there in all the books. Lovely, lovely writing that conveys so much in so few words.

p 190 - Gen has managed to get them where he wants them to go, and the Magus got turned around during their flight from Attolia's palace, so the river seems to be running in the wrong direction because Gen has taken them a different way--towards Eddis. " "What about this road we've been on?" I asked, although I knew the answer. " Clever, sly Gen!

And I put a "HA!" next to the line on p 191 about no one starting a war over Gen. Nice. I agree that he does not see, at all, how others feel about him.

Re: thank the gods for sticky notes

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

I wondered that about Moira, too. I didn't see her and Hephestia being that chummy. Did Moira lose her headband, or something? borrowing headwear seems very gal-pal to me. And that's just a disturbing thought.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

What I noticed especially as I reread was that the ending is so perfect and satisfying (even if you have to THINK about it at first and figure out what's going on). Even though at that point we've only known Eddis for a few pages, it's still touching to see her and Gen being so happy that everything's turned out alright(for now...). When I first read it, part of me was saying "Who IS this woman? Why is she suddenly so important?", but most of me liked her immediately, if only because she is presented as important to Gen, and enjoyed reading the ending. Such good writing! Of course, this time I was just smiling and whispering the lovely dialogue in my head and creaking with laughter delightedly.
Yeah, I noticed the headband too. Quite fashionable in those parts, ain't it?
Note: Gen can't "carry a tune". So now we know that when he sings he sings offkey ... Oh goody!

[ilysia-039.livejournal.com]

Oh, I read dialogue out loud as well, at times. Damned awkward when you're in public, that is.

[anon8.livejournal.com]

I absolutely love these discussions! :D

But I wanted to point out, while we can assume that everybody in the comm has read all the books, won't these posts be spoilerish for new fans of The Thief, who happen to stumble in?

Does anyone object to friends-locking posts that include quoting chunks of the text/plot?

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Instead of friends-locking the entries so only members of the comm can read them, what if we put the bulk of the entry under an LJ cut that indicates there are spoilers for the first three books in them? Then anyone who really wants to read them, but doesn't want to/can't create an LJ account can still get to them?

I seem to remember a younger person saying her mom didn't want her making an account, but of all the great entries to read, these in-depth discussion ones are the best for someone who really loves the books.

What does everyone else think?

DISCUSSION!!

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Since we’re just winding up with TT, I thought I’d put this up for discussion. I’ve heard it expressed (mostly in reviews I’ve dug up) that some people wish Gen hadn’t been Eugenides. Since it’s pretty usual for the main character of a fantasy to be royal. But it seems to me like there’s no way Eugenides could have been just Gen and still the hero we know and love. The only way it works is if Gen had really been stupid enough to brag about stealing the king’s seal, in which case the Magus’ plan should have worked perfectly. Such a dim thief would have been happy to steal the stone, give it to the Magus, be famous for a few months, then go back to the tavern with a heckuva story no one would believe within two years. I like to think of the Magus’ plan as a little stupid, not adjusting for the human element, but in reality he did – just not the Eugenides element. If Eugenides had been born with the same history he wrote for himself, minus the not-very-smart element, why would he be in the King’s prison to start with?

I’d love to hear other people’s opinions!

Re: DISCUSSION!!

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

I guess it didn't bother me that Gen turned out to be semi-royalty, although I can see (in retrospect) how it might bother some people, especially in light of fantasy conventions, etc. I do agree that the story wouldn't have worked out so well if he were really a street thief, though.

Plus, Gen has got to be about the most unconventional member of a royal family of all time (Eddis possibly excepted), even in the Eddisian court, which, compared to Attolia and Sounis, is unconventional in itself. He hates public appearances, he hates courtly manners, and he doesn't use his royal blood to get him places--only his skills and his wits. Even in later books when he interacts with courtly society, he does so completely on his own terms.

more discussion LOL

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Gen's age: Yes, like most people I definitely thought he was a lot older, esp since I read a review which refered to Gen as "the man with a plan" going off that I thought he was about 20, it was around the end when I read the scene between Gen and MoW,
not sure exactly how it goes but "I thought I heard you laughing up your sleeve" I held up my sleeve to show him I only had my elbow in there.
Dawww, soo cute. Now, I go with le theory: Gen was about 15/16ish ?

When Gen gets sick at the end, he says he sees Eddis come in and offer him the stone, this was for it's healing power right? Because Gen declines and says that it's best to pass on when your time has come..(another line I found interesting and almost foreshadow-y except that no one else had died yet)

Hm..that's about all I can really remember
Can't wait to reread queen! LOVE reading the discussions!!

Re: more discussion LOL

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

Gen's age: In the Queen of Attolia he had his growth spurt: "He had grown, as all boys grow before they become men" (QoA, not sure which page, and I might have gotten a couple of words wrong.) That means Gen could be as young as twelve, but also as old as 16, or even older.

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

Did anyone enjoy rereading Thief more than they did the first time? Not that I didn't love it the first time around, but I really fell in love with the characters in QoA and KoA. I feel I enjoyed Thief way more that the first time I read it, because I love the characters more than the first time I read the book. That sounds confusing, but hopefully I make a little sense.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

I did! And I loved it the first time! It's just that until you re-read, you don't realize every single word is so important. So on the re-read, I just read so much more carefully. Each time. Until now, I'm just savoring every word. So much love!