ACoK: Chapters 4, 5, 6, and 7!

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Don't worry! Reading this post will not spoil anything! However,

DO NOT READ THE COMMENTS IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE SPOILED LIKE MOLDY BREAD!

It's here, Sounisians! Many of us now have our hand(s) on copies of the lovely new book known as A Conspiracy of Kings.
This system of posts is designed to put a little bit of organization in the chaos. Thus, if you want to discuss what happened in ACoK, leave your squeeings, questions, exclamations, and happy-sparrow-in-the-nest chatter in the comments. There will be a post for every four chapters, so it will be extremely lovely if the comments are placed in their approximate place. Of course, that isn't always possible for overall themes, etc. Don't worry. We won't put you in prison. :)
Also, THIS IS NOT THE ONLY WAY, of course. This chapter by chapter thingy isn't meant to monopolize discussion. It even may disappear after a few days in the deluge of excitement that's currently sweeping toward and around us, threatening to wash away everying more than a day old on the Recent Entries page. Yeah. So. Just remember to use lj cuts for any discussion of the content of ACoK!

Happy discussing! Be blessed in your endeavors! We are Sounisians, hear us roar like bears!

Comments

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

The presentation of slavery made me uncomfortable. There was a bit of an 'isn't this a grand holiday and I sure do like bonding with my friends at the day' attitude. Did anyone else have trouble with that?

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Not really. I just figured they had better slavery in Sounis. Like, even if they can't pay off their debts they don't get thrown in debtor's prison, never to be free again, but can work off their debts. But, then, that is a sort of denial. Because pure and simple, slavery sucks. When I say 'better' I guess I mean 'whitewashed'. But then, it is a children's book. (??!!??)

[kitsune-rains.livejournal.com]

I got the impression that Sophos's view was very skewed. It was an experience so far removed from anything he'd known and he was so willing to change his life that he welcomed it. But it was always something that he could immediately remedy by revealing himself, so to speak. A few of the others even comment on the fact that he never was a slave.

[katewaits.livejournal.com]

It felt a bit more like an indenture than what we think of as slavery. I don't think this is an inaccurate portrayal of some slavery situations in history.

The main thing that appealed to Sophos was that he didn't have to make any choices if he was a slave. I think he was very lucky that he was labeled 'mankiller' and given a certain amount of space. Otherwise I think it might have gone much worse for him personally.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Yes, interesting. Otherwise it may have turned out to be one of those "overcoming bully" stories, at least for awhile, and that would have been ... not so cool.

But I agree. I really hope that he later ENDs slavery, as king, or does something to acknowledge that part of his life, but I dunno.

Is it just in Sounis, on the Peninsula? I know the Medes have slaves (like Kamet), and I think Nahuseresh or Kamet himself mentions that they don't have them in Attolia, either.

[katewaits.livejournal.com]

You're right, Attolia doesn't have slavery. I don't know about Eddis though. It doesn't seem like a place that would have slaves, but the practice seems fairly accepted as a way of life other places.

The term 'slavery' always makes the skin crawl, but sometimes the automatic reaction to that term makes us overlook systems that are just as unfair all over history and the present.

For instance, in the Thief world, the whole system of patronois, okloi, barons, etc. makes me uncomfortable. And this is a system that Sophos swears to uphold. Is it Attolia where they've changed it so okloi can earn land? I forget where that was in the book, but it seemed like a new development. Lo, the transforming power of Gen? And does that give us an idea of the practice in Eddis?

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Mmmm...I think it's that they don't have as many slaves as the Medes. Sophos does also try to point out that he got really lucky--Ochto is a good guy and things could have been a lot worse if he wasn't. Obviously, MWT made a choice to put him in that kind of situation, but I'm willing to buy that it was possible.

Sophos swears to uphold the patroni system, but he also seems committed to trying to help the okloi and ensure their ability to rise in status (like in Attolia--and that change occurred pre-Gen).

[katewaits.livejournal.com]

Ah. I couldn't remember what the situation was as far as okloi moving up. But now I remember Attolia installed an okloi general so merit advancement was obviously a possibility.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Yes, and Aris is of course an okloi. There's that conversation he has with Costis where he says something along the lines of "But for Attolia I would be sweating over the tanning vats right now." So I think there is a general trend for merit-based advancement, rather than birth. It's not reform or revolution in any sense though.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

That's a good line to illustrate Attolia's involvement in the new status okloi are able to achieve in her society. She mentions in the second book that she has a "new-model army" which Nahuserfish finds distasteful because it contains so many non-noble officers. However, I'd argue that is is a form of reform (not a revolution, though, surely) because Aris also says that he would never have been made a squad leader or any kind of officer if he were serving Attolia's father. So it's a reform favoring merit-based advancement in the sense that Attolia, the queen, is the first one to do it that anyone knows.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I actually thought it was pretty cool that the slaves weren't brutal, animal-like men because of their situation. They like poetry! They care about one another. In so many YA books, the kidnapped hero suffers terribly before escaping. Sophos, OTOH, is able to rest and become strong and think long and hard about the man he wanted to be, and what he owed his country.

I agree that it seemed more like an indenture--in fact, I think some of the men were in that situation. You know how it is when you're living in the middle of a certain social/cultural organization--it seems so normal that it doesn't even occur to most people to question it.

[katewaits.livejournal.com]

That's exactly what I've been wanting to say but couldn't figure out how to say it. As Harriet Tubman said "I could have freed thousands more if they'd only known they were slaves." (totally paraphrased from memory)

It was a really cool choice on MWT's part, I agree. Sophos actually appreciating some parts of the situation was much more fascinating than just a replay of Simon Lagree (sp).

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

I love all these perspectives on the same event! I def agree that the depiction of the slaves, and certainly of Sophos reaction to the situation, was very good and apt. It was a very human experience and often times that is not what is depicted in a slavery situation. Also, there was definitely a mixture of workers here... like those working off debts, etc so not everyone was a slave. For me, the situation was still an uncomfortably pretty picture of slavery. Especially so at the end when Ochto was describing Sophos as spending WHOLE mornings watching animals and stopping every time he heard a bird song. That was just ridiculously indulgent to me and kind of tipped the whole situation far beyond what I was comfortable with.

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

This interests me...I've begun wondering how good Sophos' cover actually was. I mean, if Ochto catches on that he's never been a slave, surely some of the others have to. That's not to say that his place among them isn't earned, or that he's necessarily privileged, but he may not have been as completely assimilated into the slave structure as it appeared.

I get the impression that Ochto was exaggerating about the whole mornings watching animals, but maybe that's just me.

I wasn't necessarily bothered by the portrayal of slavery, but I also think that I have a very limited view of "slavery." Not that I want to uphold the institution in any way, but I know that the term always sets off certain expectations for me, very few of which were applicable to Sophos' situation. And, frankly, I can sympathize with his wanting to have someone to tell him what to do--sometimes it's easier just to follow the rules.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean, but it's also true that the word slavery has meant many things throughout history -- there were systems where slaves owned property, or even owned slaves themselves, where slaves could earn money and buy their freedom, or (more familiar to us) where slaves had no money, power or control over any part of their lives. This is a picture of a social system in which slavery wasn't necessarily the worst thing that could happen to you.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say that "Lo, the power of poetry, I suppose" is one of the BEST LINES!!!!

Especially when you compare it with "Lo, the transforming power of love."

Aw, Zecush, you little wondering bunny!

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

I loved that line!

And I really want Eddis to call him Bunny from now on.

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

I love the Bunny/Zecush nickname and I totally want to see that again, too. :)

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Me too! What was Eddis's reaction when she heard Moira calling him that in the dreams?

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

I laughed out loud when I read this line! (And at the "Bunny" thing too.) As you said, it made me think of Attolia's "Lo, the transforming power of love." Which is interesting, because Sophos and Attolia are two of the characters who I would have said have LEAST in common, at least until this book.

It's a great line.