Qualities of a Hero

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Hey everyone! I just wanted to share a little something. This Christmas my sister gave me a book called “How to Write Damn Good Fiction Using the Power of Myth” by James N. Frey. This book basically… teaches a person how they can use themes, characteristics, motifs, etc. from myths to write a good story, even if they intend it to be completely contemporary.

So… I’ve just gotten the first few chapters over, and I can’t help but think of Eugenides when Frey was spelling out the basic qualities of a mythical hero. It’s SO accurate, and that surprises me! I’ve always thought of Eugenides as a character that I’ve never encountered before… you know, there’s nobody else like him that I’ve read about before. (Of course, the fact that I’m not much of a reader doesn’t really help, hehe ^__^), but still. Now I start to think about the heroes of the stories I’ve liked and tried to compare them to each other. ^^

Anyway, see what you think about this. Here are the qualities of a hero that Frey mentions:

1. The Hero Has Courage (or finds it in the course of the story): Very true… I don’t think I’ve ever seen any other character that solves his or her fear quite the way Gen does it. ^^ I think we all remember that convo he had with Eddis about him being afraid of Attolia and couldn’t stand it… so he went back to Ephrata. Heehee. And even in The Thief, the only time I ever really got the notion he was sort ‘afraid’ was when he was in the temple, and pondering whether such things like ghouls actually existed. Even in Attolia’s presence, he seemed more… playful than anything else. To me at least.

2. The Hero is Clever and Resourceful: Definitely. I don’t think I need to explain this one further. I think we’ve all been awed with Gen’s brilliance. ^^

3. The Hero Has a “Special” Talent: Uh, yes!!! Thievery… stealing things that are not even tangible. And his cunningness can be part of it too. And his great acting skills! And his ninja skills!

4. The Hero Is an “Outlaw”, Living by His or Her Own Rules: Yesh. He’s deviant, and everybody knows it. Although in the Queen’s Thief series, Gen is not the only “outlaw”, at all. I think pretty much all the characters are out of the ordinary. There’s Helen, who’s brilliant like a queen, but definitely doesn’t act that way in some aspects. Attolia, of course, who refuses to succumb under her barons’ wishes and goes out of her way to keep her power. Magus too… and Sophos. I don’t think Costis applies to this one though, although I could be wrong.

5. The Hero is Good at What He or She Does for a Living: Again with the stealing… if he managed to steal Hamiathes’s Gift twice, then he’s perhaps one of the most talented thieves ever in Eddis’s history. Maybe.

6. The Hero Has Been “Wounded” (Maimed, Disgraced, Grieving for a Lost Loved One, Etc.): Need I say more? I think Gen experiences all of these things. But perhaps the latter he experiences off the scenes, before the book started.

7. The Hero is Motivated by Idealism: I think this is a harder one. What I mean is, it’s obvious that Eugenides does the things he does for the betterment of everyone, but I just can’t pinpoint the ‘idealism’. Peace, perhaps, for Eddis? Fame, too, once in the Thief but he changes his mind pretty quickly about that. Can anyone tell me what Gen’s motivation is in KoA and CoK? I’m leaning on “to be a good king” or something like that, but I remember that he doesn’t even want to be king.

8. The Hero is Sexually Attractive/ Sexually Potent/ Has an Insatiable Sexual Appetite: Uh…. Uh…. Gen?? Lol. It’s funny to think about this now, because when I’ve read all four of the books, it *never* crossed my mind at all! I just assume that he is attractive because there’s no reason not to think so. I don’t even consider him like “drop dead gorgeous” or anything like that. Just normal… with a good sense of fashion. Is that reason enough to think he’s sexy? Lol…

As for the second one, again I don’t have reason not to think so, until recently when I’ve seen a few theories going around saying that Gen’s taking medication because of his inability to get Attolia pregnant… but they’re just theories, right?

The third one… well, it’s a children’s series, so I don’t even think it’s a matter of speculation. ^__~ (but since it’s fun to speculate, I’ll just say that I don’t think he does… not until after he got married, anyway, and even that’s questionable, haha.)

9. The Hero Very Often Has Hubris: I think so especially in The Thief before his belief in the gods was very solid. I think now he’s more… I dunno, respectful, I’m guessing, towards his gods. For sure he has a complicated relationship with them. On one hand he knows that his fate is in their hands, and on the other he’s having trouble coping with the fate he’s been given. I think so, anyway. ^^

10. The Hero is Usually Stoical: True for most heroes, but not Gen. And that’s why I like him. He’s so human. ^__^

11. The Hero Is Usually Loyal: Yup! We know how dedicated he is to Eddis. Well, *was* should be more appropriate, but I know that his loyalty to her wouldn’t evaporate with marriage vows, on a personal level. On a political level though… it’ll be harder. Now he’s loyal to Attolia (the queen; I think moreso than the actual country itself) too.

12. The Hero Has a Special Birth: Yesh. One of his grandfathers was king of Eddis, and the other was the Thief of Eddis. At least, that’s how I interpret this ‘special birth’ business….

13. The Hero Sometimes Has a Special Destiny: Gee… I don’t need to explain this one, right?

14. The Hero is Sometimes Branded: Scar… missing one hand… what else? We know Sophos also has the broken nose and cut lip.

15. The Hero is Sometimes Cynical: In Gen’s case, it’s really not ‘sometimes’, right? Hehe.

16. The Hero is Sometimes “mouthy”: See what I mean about the book being accurate? It almost makes me wonder if the author has Gen in mind too.

So… those are the qualities of myth-based hero!! What are your thoughts? Feel free to disagree with some of my interpretations. But for the most part, I think Gen is pretty much the walking definition of a mythic hero.

Oh and since I haven’t read many books, I’d love to hear if this is really the case for most protagonists in your other favorite books too.


Oh, by the way, I've succeeded in getting a friend to read The Thief (one and only friend I've managed to convince so far), but she didn't like it. She totally didn't understand the ending. Not that any of us was really prepared for the ending (if it was the first one we read from the series)... she thought that Gen was the actual Eugenides (god). And she didn't like it.  *sigh*

Oh, and just one more thing, I promise!!! I've finally finished my first re-read of QoA!!!! It was really silly of me to just let it go without giving it another glance, but I'm usually like that with every other book. I had several questions listed out, but they're now condensed to only two, after I've dug around the older posts back in '06

So, one thing that confused me was this convo between Attolia and Chloe: (pg164 in paperback):
Attolia: Go fetch something for me.
Chloe: What would you like, Your Majesty?
Attolia: I don't know. Go find out.
What is it that Attolia wants Chloe to find out and fetch for her? Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill with this?

And one more... on pg. 276. Nahuseresh says, "It is not much to Eddis's advantage to have Attolia dead. Her titular heir is not fond of the Mede, but he would not hold the throne long." Who is the heir their talking about here? Attolia's or Eddis's? And who is it? I've never heard of either of them having an heir. 

Thanks! Oh, and have a happy, happy New Year, everyone!

Comments

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Oh, gosh. I ADORE this post and so well organized too.

Addressing number 10, I think Gen is stoic in his own way. He wouldn't tell Helen who broke his ribs, and he didn't tell Irene that his attendants were picking on him. I do agree that Gen is endearingly human when it comes to the whining and the brooding about, but the things that really bother him? He is very talented at hiding those when he so desires.

I do love all these quantifications, and they describe many of my favorite hero type characters: Veronica Mars, Neal Caffrey, the Leverage crew, Howl Jenkins, etc.

Addressing your questions...

(1) She's not been ordered to fetch anything really... That's more Irene's way of saying: Hey, what you just said? Yeah... Not flying with me. Now get lost before I have you granched. It's a way of asserting authority and demonstrating that this sort of talk is not acceptable. It may also be a hint to the reader that Irene is not crazy about this red-bearded dude crashing her court.

(2) He's talking about Irene's heir. Titular, as defined in this sense, means holding or constituting a purely formal position or title without any real authority. I would assume that Irene has some distant cousin that would inherit the throne upon the event of her death but wouldn't be able to hold any sort of power. As to who that is? Err... I'm not sure. That may require some more thought.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Well, the book listed it out like that, and for most points I couldn't help but agree.

Oh, I forgot about that. I think I consider stoical more like Attolia... or people who just refuse to show any emotion at all. I think Gen is very talented at misleading people altogether, if he really wanted, whether he's hurt or he's not. ^^

Howl!!!! I love Howl... the book Howl, more than the movie Howl. He didn't seem as cunning in the movie.

Ah okay. Thanks for answering. I thought about that at first, but after knowing how many hidden messages there are in these books, I think I tend to over think even the smallest things. ^^ Poor Chloe, she seems to be the likeliest target for Attolia's anger. Or maybe she's just the least careful. ^__^

I was just curious about the heir, because I didn't see it mentioned before until Nahuseresh brought it up, and all of a sudden it seemed like a big deal too. Hehe.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

*nods* It's true Gen doesn't match the visage of a typically stoic person. His denial of pain is accomplished more through his ability to distract and mislead.

Yeah, I didn't really get movie Howl. Book Howl is a much more fun character in my opinion.

I believe Chloe is the youngest and the most likely to forget herself, but yes, the poor girl does seem to end up on the receiving end of much of Irene's ire.

Yes, I agree. Who is this mysterious titular heir? I have always been curious about that.

[madclairvoyant.livejournal.com]

Howl Jenkins fits the criterias even more to the tee.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

I don't think Attolia wanted Chloe to actually get her anything. She just wanted her out of the room, because in the paragraph before, she said something negative about Nahuseresh:

“He should buy some other stones,” Phresine said. She was the oldest of the queen’s attendants and sat by the window with a needle pinched in her lips while she arranged the hem she was darning in one of the queen’s dresses. She took the needle out. “Something that goes better with rubies,” she said, glancing over at her queen, whose rubies were being carefully braided into her hair.

It was a daring attendant who risked a sly gibe at her mistress, but there could be no doubt that Attolia smiled on the Mede, that she permitted him to hold her hands at greetings a trifle longer than was proper, that he called her “dear queen” and sometimes just “my dear.”

“Something that goes better with his beard,” said one of the younger women with a titter. Her rash words provoked an uncomfortable silence. The attendants looked to their queen.

It was a way for Attolia to censure Chloe without having to be specific about what she had said. I think it's one of those "what appears is not really as it is" things that these books are full of. Everybody else in the room assumes that Attolia sent Chloe away because she insulted Nahuseresh, who they all think is one step away from marrying their queen, but who knows why Attolia really did it. Maybe she didn't want to give herself away by laughing -- she actually hates Nahuseresh, remember. I don't think the thing she sent Chloe for is a Chekov's gun or anything; it's just way to punish her.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

You know... It kinda sounds like Chloe is saying that Irene should wear something that better matches Nahuseresh's beard. Hmm... Maybe that's just me.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree. Chloe is going over the line, when it comes to allowable teasing v. being inappropriate, and the order is more a code for, "Go get your foot out of your mouth and learn some judgment, before I have to do something neither of us will like".

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I wondered about that, after knowing that Attolia wasn't fond of Nahuseresh. So it seemed strange she was dismissing someone for saying something bad about him. But I guess she wanted to give the opposite impression, like you said.

But even when she's alone, sometimes it seems as if she's favoring Nahuseresh, so I get confused. One example is when she comes back after being abducted by Gen, and in the bathroom she thinks about how handsome and charming he is... something like that. Is that to trick the readers deliberately? Because no one is around for Attolia herself to mislead...

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

I think that she's thinking about who she will choose for king. At that point, she really has two options. She can let Nahuseresh do as he’s doing, which is basically taking over her kingdom (he’s already let his army in). He would eventually marry her, and she’d lose all power. But she can also change things and take Gen up (again) on his marriage proposal. I don’t think she’s realized that she loves him yet, but she KNOWS that Nahuseresh is the worse enemy. I think the part about his handsomeness is the only part that’s said so that the first time reader is still surprised by the reveal (because mwt is awesome), but really Attolia is considering her options carefully. I guess it’s more like: “There’s this Mede guy who came here with his handsome face etc to charm me and take over my country and the neighboring ones, and he’s totally underestimated me. But there’s also this annoying thief boy who I feel guilty for torturing, and he may be my way out.”

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

I think Attolia reacted so strongly to that comment because she didn't want to look like a fool herself, not because she wants to protect Nahuseresh. If Nahuseresh is not respected, it makes her have to look like a fool for appearing to like him. It makes her show of liking him harder, and undermines her authority by making her a laughing stock. Even if in her thoughts she's still "making up her mind," deep down she actually doesn't like him, and she actually feels embarrassed (deep down, I think) to publicly appear to throw her lot in with him... and that comment triggers that embarrassment.

That's the understanding I got the last time I read it, anyway. (Actually I was listening to the sounis read-alouds... which I LOVE... so I may have got that from the reader's voice).

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I never thought of it that way. The first time I read it, I was like, "Okay, so she's obviously into this Nahuseresh dude", but the second time I read it, it didn't seem to fit. Thanks for clearing that up. It makes sense though.

Although Gen pretending to be inept in KoA didn't save her from that kind of reaction from her people. Poor Attolia. =(

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

This is a very interesting list. I did a post a couple months ago on my lj about my favorite heroes and most of these can be applied to each of them but I never really sat down and thought it out the qualities like this. Thanks for sharing.

#1 You know I always thought it took more courage for Gen to go to dinner every night during his recovery than it did for him to go to Ephrata. Taking the risk he did while going to Ephrata was a fear he was more used to at least. Plus, after reading that conversation with Eddis several times I think his motivation for having it was to get her to start rethinking her views on Attolia. He already had his plan before he left to scope out where she was but he knew he would need Eddis to agree to it eventually. In that scene he basically gets Eddis to defend Attolia and I don't think that was accidental on his part. I don't think he manufactured his fear but that he magnified it and used it as a tool to get Eddis to start changing her mind about her rival.

#7This is going to sound really corny but I think the thing that motivates Gen the most is love. Love for his country, Eddis, Attolia, Sophos. Even in The Thief he says that if it were not family member he loved more than anything he wouldn't have been there (a friend has my copy of the book so I can't look up the page and exact quote).

#8 I do think we have enough evidence to say Gen is sexy. We know he has a fair amount of charisma and that can make a person far sexier than drop dead gorgeous good looks. Look at the way the women in the inn respond to him in The Thief.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Ah thank you! I thought the list was really interesting too. And the next few chapters talk about the typical sidekicks, so as soon as I finish that, I'll see if I can compare them to QT again ^^.

Ooh, you have a good point about the dinners. I totally didn't see it that way.

"In that scene he basically gets Eddis to defend Attolia and I don't think that was accidental on his part."

Ah, thank you, thank you. I was actually wondering about this. Several chapters earlier, Helen tells Gen that Attolia cut off his hand to hurt him and hurt her at the same time, and here she says that Attolia never does anything out of maliciousness.

Love makes sense. Doesn't sound corny at all. It's a common theme in almost everything else, so I guess it's a good motivation. I don't remember that line, but I'll go look it up. ^^

Really? I thought that the women in the inn thought he was adorable. Oh well, I guess it depends mostly on how the reader interprets these things. ^__^

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Re-7: Oh, that doesn't sound cheesy to me at all, because I entirely agree. His greatest motivation is the people he cares about, and pretty much people in general. I think he not only cares deeply for his loved ones, but also for the people of Eddis, Attolia, and probably Sounis. We know he highly values human life and goes to great lengths to protect it.

Re-8: Seconds! I think Gen is good-looking, but I like the way Megan chooses not to over-emphasive his looks or attractiveness. Unlike a certain writer of vampire novels I know of.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

Every time you use that icon I smile. :)

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I makes me smile too. Err... Actually more like cackle in glee, because (1) Do I dazzle you? Frequently. is an honest to God real line from the book. (2) I don't think Rob Pattinson was terribly found of his role as Edward. He kinda thinks SMeyer is crazy.

*is loling at your icon*

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't blame him for not being terribly fond of having to spout that nonsense and the fans are just as crazy as their author.

The quote on my icon is from CS Lewis.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I agree with your #7! Having Attolia and Eddis be called the names of their countries makes this motivation easier to turn to political purposes, too, I think. It sorta makes it easier for him to have love of country when he loves the person who personifies that country.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

That's a great list, and it sounds like a really interesting and useful book. It's cool how things like this really do make interesting heroes -- they're timeless. Also, it seems like the qualities can be combined in different quantities and ways so when you mix them together, you don't always get ... Gen or someone like him. Maybe it's just a testament to mwt, or the qualities themselves that Gen seems like a very fresh and original person, even if heroes have been like him (in ways) for a long time. :)

Oh, and with the "special birth" one, I assumed it meant the literal birth (like -- eeuurg, my mythology sucks, but was it Diana who came out of Zeus's forehead?). I like what you said, though. He has special relative.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

*nods* Yeah, I think mixing the qualities provides a variety of heroes. ^__^ Perhaps, like you said, it's just MWT's style of writing that makes him appear so unique. I'm sure that Gen in the hands of an amateur writer would not be as lovable. Or... who knows, maybe he would be still. =P

Well, the book was not really clear about it. I assumed it was like that too, but Frey started describing characters' ethnicities and stuff. But I'm sure it could be anything about a person's birth, meaning yours probably works too.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Re: special birth, I'd take that to mean a story surrounding their birth, like Jesus has with the lack of room at the inn and the stable and the star etc. And King Arthur has with the story of his father Uther being turned into the likeness of Igraine's husband by Merlin's magic, and sneaking into her room while her true husband was fighting a battle miles away... Often these babies have to be raised in obscurity, too (Luke Skywalker, Arthur, Jesus, Aragorn..).

Thanks for this post... really fun read! It's neat to see how these apply to Gen.
I'm a bit surprised, because I guard Gen's uniqueness, too. But I don't think his heroic qualities make him less unique... it's his other qualities that make him unique, maybe. Gen is a hero, but for me one of the things that makes him seem so interesting is that we don't recognize him as one right away, or even all the time. I mean, Aragorn and Luke Skywalker are also brave, resourceful, have a special talent (the force, tracking), are good at what they do, have been wounded, are motivated by idealism, are stoic, are loyal, have a special destiny, etc. But they are what spring to mind when I think of "heroic character," because they wear these qualities on their sleeves. These are their most obvious qualities. Whereas Gen's most obvious quality is probably... his pig-headed complaining. Or... his wit. Or his chewing with his mouth open, if you're the Magus. We're surprised when he turns out to be a hero. I guess it's his talent for misdirection and the fact that he's a complex person so those heroic traits aren't on the surface that makes him more interesting and realistic.

[velvetrose09.livejournal.com]

Oh, I completely agree, I would never *think* twice about calling Harry Potter a hero. Because that's what he's known for in the books.
Where as, you ask who's the hero in TT. I think...hmm..oh, yeah Gen.
That's just brilliant, you really have *hunt* around to realize it's all right there, perfect hero. Totally undetectable by the enemy too. He's even got the Mede thinking he can't fight with a sword when he's really worn out cause he can't (allow himself) to beat him. (even though he *can* easily do it)

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

I thought so initially also, but the author didn't really expand much to that point. He did give Scarlett O'Hara from "Gone with the Wind" as an example, because she had the "delicate features of her mother, a Coast aristocrat of French descent...". Yeah, that's what's said under the heading. So I assumed it had something to do with the hero's parents. But then again, I've never read "Gone with the Wind", so maybe Scarlett O'Hara also fits your interpretation in other ways that the author didn't elaborate upon. ^__^

Aw, you're welcome! ^^ I love this comm so much, and happy to lurk, but sometimes it's good to contribute too. ^__^

That's a great idea! Maybe that *is* why I consider him so out of the ordinary. Or perhaps extra ordinary would be a better phrase! And yes, very few books delve into a person's character. A lot of fantasy books are pretty much just plot-driven with very little space for character development, so what a hero has on his back when we meet him is pretty much what he carries along the story too. But that's not true for Gen at all.

[velvetrose09.livejournal.com]

Another thing, aren't heros most known for their PRIDE?

This is what I think really distinguishes him from the rest, they all have their pride where Gen would run, and while running come up with an even clever plan.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, that's true. Hmm... I guess it's sort of under hubris? I'm not sure why he didnt' point it out, because now that I think about it, a lot of heroes do have that.

[velvetrose09.livejournal.com]

I think GreenWillow called Gen sexy on facebook, haha

[(Anonymous)]

Hi - I've never seen this site before. I've been in love with the Thief books for a couple of years now.
As for Chloe - I just think Attolia wanted her to know that she had overstepped her bounds when she made that comment about gems matching beards. I think it came across! I also was curious about that statement about heirs. I would guess it was Attolia's heir Nehuseresh referred to as it was Atollia's death discussed. I think the answer might be in the word "titular." I think there is always a plan for succession if a ruler is childless. Attolia didn't seem to be grooming anyone. She herself made comment to Eugenides when he "proposed" to her about declaring him her heir. But there must be someone, based on lineage, who would be next in line. I guess whoever it was, he/she didn't like the Medes. I enjoyed the discussion of the Hero. Gen is without doubt a splendid one. Also about his scars, I think of his very important God-given scar on his cheek. You probably meant that when you referred to scars. And another thing, even though Gen is always complaining, I think his whining is a kind of disguised stoicism. It keeps people from taking him seriously. In the Thief he took on so much suffering and it was as much or more to save his queen and his country as to gain fame and fortune. In the Queen of Attolia, when he is being maimed, he makes no sound when being put to torture while in the King, when he is wounded his whining is to keep his love from suspecting the extent of his injury. Only when he quietens himself under pressure from Ornon does Irene realize the extent of his suffering and faints. Also, on the pregnancy front, they haven't been married all that long. Not everyone gets pregnant the first time or the first year. I don't think he needs medication! Thanks for the fun post.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Welcome!

You made me think about something else--isn't there a comment somewhere about "that cousin of Attolia's"? I'm thinking it's in a conversation about Sounis marrying someone other than Eddis, but for the life of me I can't remember. I suppose I could be thinking about the talk of Sounis marrying Agape. Oh well.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I think you might be referring to a conversation at the end of The Thief (a friend has my book but I think it is at the very end) between where Gen says to Eddis something about her advisers wanting her to marry "that cousin of Attolia's" (something like that)and she says that was only as a possible better alternative to Sounis but thanks to Gen she doesn't have to marry either.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

Oooops! If you take that between out the sentence makes far more sense.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's it! Do you suppose that cousin is her titular heir? No way to know, I suppose.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

That is what I always thought but I suppose you're right and there is no way to know for sure.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Hey, we can DO ANYTHING WE WANT. I deem it so.