Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

Nyaaaah! Why'd you have to bring this up?? Something of this context has bothered me too. It always seems as if most of Attolia's redeeming qualities are rather superficial, unlike Eddis.

But okay... if I have to be extremely honest with myself, I'm pretty sure Gen would have still felt sorry for the girl who had to be shoved aside so that the queen can keep her country from her greedy barons. I think if she was ugly, and Gen still saw her dancing under those orange trees, he would have still thought her sad *and* beautiful. It had always been said that Attolia was rather plain when she was younger, so I assumed she only grew beautiful later on. How much worse could she look if she was homely rather than just plain? Not much, I think.

And I always assumed that Gen thought it was the act of pretending to dance with imaginary friends and family that was beautiful, not only Irene herself. Gen, for the most part of his life was also isolated and lonely, and here comes a girl who was just like him, but could assuage those feelings by dreaming. (Of course, said dreams were terribly crushed later ^^) I think that sparked a small wonder in him. Do you think he makes himself feel better by spying on someone much lonelier than he is?

And since this is sort of related... another thing that bothered me is that I never really understood what Gen meant when he told Irene that he loved her because she was his queen at the very end of QoA. What if she wasn't queen? Would he not love Irene then? What happens to that dancing girl he was fascinated with? And she wasn't always his queen... Eddis was.

Sorry if I sound rather ambiguous in my answers... I'm really thinking this up as I go along.

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Oh and one more thing I want to add. It really doesn't seem like Gen bases people too much on how they look. He's pretty astute at determining a person's real motives or thoughts. Whether or not Attolia was ugly, he probably would still know that her cruelty is not a result of malicious intent, but for completely political reasons.

I was thinking of Nahuseresh... I wanted to say something about his looks, but now I can't remember. Hmm... I'll come back when it comes back to memory.

Oh, and since you pointed out a great, great concept to think about, how easily do you think Attolia would be able to manipulate men had she been ugly? It seems that despite her cruely, many men still become star-struck when they see her because she's drop dead gorgeous. (And on that note... how often do you think Attolia actually uses her beauty to get what she wants?)

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Oh you nailed my question about that last bit. the first time I read QoA, I was a bit confused at the "My Queen" part. Because he only just changed Queens.
But I've always explained it to myself as "My Queen" is the only way she knows she can trust him. If she *is* his Queen. I mean he has good history with Eddis who was his Queen, and at that point I'm sure he's desperate for her trust.

On the other bit about beauty. We know that she's smart she's always been brilliant and head strong. Would Gen have fallen in love with her if she was as you say "hook nosed" and "chopped hair"? I think so, we know that while he spies on her, he falls in love. I can definitely see Gen watching her deal with barons and really having his heart go out to her for what she does and why. Gen fell in love with her before she cut off his hand, and he kept forgetting about her beauty. He's not star struck by it, but when he notices it, he is.

And of course there's the whole "more beautiful but more kind" to consider. You may be more beautiful, but she is more kind; is what Gen says to her in TT. So Gen can clearly see beyond the mask of beauty. (OR any mask Attolia Irene wears! for that matter)!

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Nahuserfish was "good looking" because he used lots of cheap oil on his beard!
(Hope that jogs your memory!)

You know what? I don't think she does it too often. It almost felt like a first time with Narhuserfish! She's not a flirt, and she stole moves from her attendents (the batty eyelashes!) Not to mention her first husband was so rude and evil, she didn't play the "hottie" manipulator but the "quiet shy girl"

Honestly, I think she doesn't even realize how *beautiful* she is....she definitely didn't realize Dite was falling head over heels for her!!

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zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com

Haha, I view Attolia's redeeming qualities as the very ones people might not like. Cruelty? Check! I mean, she is not cruel for the sake of being cruel. She does it to keep her country under her rule, and secure from the other nations.

I think Gen's attraction is not so superficial that having her looks changed would change his feelings in the least. I mean, if you're going to let someone throw inkpots at your head and joke about poisoning you, it means you have something special, y'know?

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brandy-painter.livejournal.com

I think Elle brought up a good point, Attolia doesn't try to manipulate men with her beauty. Only Nahuseresh. There is one part in QoA when she hopes he doesn't discover what happened to the last man who tried to flatter her. It says in that same paragraph that she has never had patience for flattery. This is what I find to be the most impressive thing about her character. She uses her mind and her cunning to control her court, not her beauty.

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velvetrose09.livejournal.com

This is true. Gen's initial attraction must have been one of finding someone so much more alone. But I think there's a slight difference. Gen's lonely dispite having a large family, whereas Irene's lonely because she has no one else.

But it did slightly bother me, because Gen doesn't fall in love with her than. He's just fasinated by her. Doesn't he fall in love with her much later? After she's become with drop dead gorgeous woman?
And he says something along the lines of "It was harder to see cruelty in the face of the goddess than on the face of the Queen of Attolia" (seriously paraphrased but still... makes you wonder doesn't it?)

That last page of QoA about "My Queen"
I think that he says that (like Elle pointed out) to reassure her. He loves her despite everything, but will she believe him? Perhaps not. But he is accepting her position and aserting his loyalty, which is something she needs to hear. I think at the end of QoA she really feels like the only person he wouldn't lie to is his Queen (Eddis).

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brandy-painter.livejournal.com

I always took the "My Queen" comment to have more personal than political meaning. That entire conversation is happening on a different level than any conversation they have had before. They are both being uncharacteristically vulnerable with one another. So I interpreted as, "You Irene are my (Gen, not the Thief's) Queen." I think that's why it impacts her the way it does. It as entirely different kind of pledge of loyalty she has never in her life experienced before.

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velvetrose09.livejournal.com

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YES!!

It's like a promise <3

And I think it really shows up at the end of the KoA when Gen's talking to Teleus! And he's like "you do your job, and I'll protect the Queen" (soemthing liket that...I have that feeling I just butchered an epic line) that's exactly what I thought of then!!

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velvetrose09.livejournal.com

True...I guess, but would he fall in love with her? Would it take longer? Would they just be friends?

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I'm guessing this all goes back to the discussion of why he loves her in the first place. I'm sure there are plenty of other people who can list out the reasons off the top of their head, better than me, but I'm certain that her beauty wouldn't be one of that.

I guess, another good question would be if Irene would be somewhat of a different person had she been ugly. If there are changes in her personality, then maybe it will affect the way Gen views her.

Personally, I don't think Irene would be different. I think people's reaction towards her and their treatment would be different, but Irene is a pretty solid person. She's like a rock. If people would be somewhat less awed by her because she's not attractive, or if people would not put her on a pedestal because she doesn't resemble a goddess, I have a hard time believing that it would affect her that much. She'd still be the same person. She'd still have to be cruel. She'd still have to sacrifice her humanity. And if what's inside that really matters to Gen, I don't think Gen would see her differently. So yes, he'd still fall in love with her. ^__^

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freenarnian.livejournal.com

In the 2nd chapter of QoA, right before the Gen-getting-slapped-for-smiling-impertinently scene, it says, "He had forgotten, as he always forgot, how beautiful she was." So that right there suggests to me that he wasn't fascinated by her beauty alone.

He would've been fairly familiar with her appearance (all that spying, you know) by then, though, and isn't it true that we forget to look at people sometimes? Especially the people that are closest to us. We may have initially thought them beautiful when we met them, but then failed to notice anymore... or in the case of growing up with people (Gen and Irene kind of grew up together) we may not realize how someone is changing... until it hits us all of a sudden, at unexpected moments. Just a thought.

Also, this is slightly off-topic, but a while back someone posted about the god Eugenides speaking through Gen... and as I read this passage in chapter 2 of QoA again, it stuck me how the Eddisian ambassador interrupts Attolia with, "Do not offend the gods." Kind of an odd thing to say just then, and Attolia's violent reaction made me wonder... could this have been a message? Or am I reading into it overmuch? Thoughts?

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*sigh* No... it was one of those things that you'd think is a brilliant comment, but once you lose it you can't seem to retrieve it. Lol, oh well... if I can't remember it, then it probably wasn't a very good comment to begin with.

Ooh, good point. Especially about how she doesn't know she's that beautiful. I remember that when she looks in the mirror, she doesn't really see her face, but just wonders if her "mask" is getting thicker.

Ah yes, Dite. But I don't think Dite loves her either because she was beautiful. It must have been something else, but what, I don't know. He doesn't strike me as someone who knows the woman behind the crown that much.

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hooked nose and choppy hair reminds me of cleopatra (the first because that's how she did look and the second because liz taylor looks absolutely ravishing like that), and i think there are parallels between irene and cleopatra that need exploring, but that's a whole other discussion.

but i do think so. i mean, attolia wasn't beautiful when she was younger, and that's when he first came to be fascinated by her. i do think part of the reason he does like her (and eventually love her) is for her beauty, but not just the physicality of her beauty, but the whole beauty equates good idea that's fixated in our minds (and fairytales do tend to repeat themselves across cultures, despite time and contact -- or lack of contact -- either htis or i am reading too many tvtropes pages) of you know, the beautiful good innocent girl who's all good, all the time, and the evil, ugly stepsisters (interchangeable with stepmother, old crone, witch, blahblahblah) who do bad things, and you know, how can someone so beautiful be so cruel? and that's what lead him to do his "research" on her, to try and find out why/how she became what she now is, if any of this is making sense.

obviously gen isn't superficial enough for that to be his only reason -- he genuinely feels bad for her, trapped in a cesspit of a court, unable to trust anyone, added with the diplomacy thing -- he is, after all, subservient to a neighbouring queen, and despite his fascination with her, while he is thief, he is loyal to eddis first -- and while i do think her beauty is part of the motivating factor (however small it might be), i also think that he could have fallen in love with her so long as he was intrigued by her personality enough to dig deeper (and i do think he would have, if only to protect eddis' sovereignty). just because you change the face doesn't mean that you change the person.

and going back to cleopatra -- she's known to us as a beautiful woman, but she wasn't really all that pretty, if you look at the coins that are depictions of her and possible statues of her & people modelling themselves after her. she had a hooked nose, she wasn't particularly jaw-dropping, but yet she got julius caesar to sleep with her and got him to say that cesarion was his son, and had mark antony wrapped around her finger (oh stacey schiff! i worship you so, not only for vera nabokov but now for this). i rather think it was the force of her personality that attracted these men to her, and i think we can all agree that attolia does have that certain charisma.

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Oh yeah, that's true. Hmm... but maybe once he's fascinated with her, there will be sufficient incentive to keep spying on her and keep on getting to know her? And once he's on the roll... like Eddis says, he won't be able to draw back.

Really? I always thought that the quote went the other way around! That it was harder to see the cruelty in the face of the Queen? Oh gee... I've misread then.

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wow.
this was kinda incoherent. :/
need to work on that, don't i?

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beth-shulman.livejournal.com

Two things: first, way back in The Thief, when she's trying to get Gen to stay in her court, he says, "You are more beautiful - but she is more kind." And Attolia was flattered by the first part. I think she likes when people appreciate her beauty. I think that maybe she used it initially to misdirect people. People saw through that, though, or maybe it was just Gen. (When did she start dressing like Hephestia?)

Second, I think that she wants people to appreciate her beauty, but not to only see that. Gen probably thinks she's beautiful - but beauty's such a superficial thing and he's smart enough to know that. Also, she cut off his hand. And "calf love doesn't survive amputation". I think Gen definitely doesn't only love her because she's beautiful, but I do think she is who she is partly because she's beautiful. Nahuseresh is the only example we have in the books of a time when she used her beauty to fool someone, but who's to say she hasn't before?

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Nah... I think you explained everything I've been trying to say in... five posts. Lol. I think it's pretty good.

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beth-shulman.livejournal.com

Oh, that quote is a really good point.

I've never thought about that before, but there's two interesting aspects there - that Attolia, and Attolians in general, didn't really believe in the gods, so it's unusual for Ornon to say that; also, I think he was trying for a violent reaction. He wanted Gen to be hanged instead of tortured because it would have prevented a war. Doesn't Attolia tell Gen that - "your queen has conceded my right to have you hanged" or something similar, but not to be tortured? Nahuseresh, by stopping her, was trying to start a war.

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haha i have a tendency to ramble on and on and on, so i'm kinda hyperconscious about that. :)

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Lol, well at least you managed to say what you mean in just one post ^^.

And who said rambling was bad? ^__~

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but doesn't attolia say that she believes in them, but she won't worship them (at the end of qoa)? she's been visited by moira more than once, too.

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Here at Sounis we enjoy and appreciate all sorts of rambles. This isn't the longest "rambling" I've seen on here, check out the archives, we love our longs posts :)

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