Attolia's Beauty

[velvetrose09.livejournal.com]

Okay, I know I've been posting a lot, but I've just re-read and you know how it is.

So this new thought struck me and I was wondering what you lot would make of it. Attolia and her beauty. Gen falls in love with Attolia. Attolia is known for her beauty (which Gen always forgets because she is also known for her cruelty). But he is able to fall in love with her still, despite everything. Maybe more so, because he gets to know her and how hard she has fought to keep her country. 
Only I still can't help but wonder, if Attolia was not only cruel but ugly too. I don't mean this is a 'mean' way. Eddis is described by Gen as ugly, but her personality makes her more loved. Where as with all Attolia's beauty she is only feared and well very much the opposite of Eddis. However, if Attolia was described as cruel, with a hooked nose and choppy hair...would Gen be able to find and love the real woman beneath?

Thoughts?  
 

On another note. I've been keep tract of Eddis/Sounis/Attolia vs. Mede with points so far it's 3:2
with our favorites leading! All the explanations are in this post: http://community.livejournal.com/sounis/441443.html :)

Comments

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Nyaaaah! Why'd you have to bring this up?? Something of this context has bothered me too. It always seems as if most of Attolia's redeeming qualities are rather superficial, unlike Eddis.

But okay... if I have to be extremely honest with myself, I'm pretty sure Gen would have still felt sorry for the girl who had to be shoved aside so that the queen can keep her country from her greedy barons. I think if she was ugly, and Gen still saw her dancing under those orange trees, he would have still thought her sad *and* beautiful. It had always been said that Attolia was rather plain when she was younger, so I assumed she only grew beautiful later on. How much worse could she look if she was homely rather than just plain? Not much, I think.

And I always assumed that Gen thought it was the act of pretending to dance with imaginary friends and family that was beautiful, not only Irene herself. Gen, for the most part of his life was also isolated and lonely, and here comes a girl who was just like him, but could assuage those feelings by dreaming. (Of course, said dreams were terribly crushed later ^^) I think that sparked a small wonder in him. Do you think he makes himself feel better by spying on someone much lonelier than he is?

And since this is sort of related... another thing that bothered me is that I never really understood what Gen meant when he told Irene that he loved her because she was his queen at the very end of QoA. What if she wasn't queen? Would he not love Irene then? What happens to that dancing girl he was fascinated with? And she wasn't always his queen... Eddis was.

Sorry if I sound rather ambiguous in my answers... I'm really thinking this up as I go along.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Oh and one more thing I want to add. It really doesn't seem like Gen bases people too much on how they look. He's pretty astute at determining a person's real motives or thoughts. Whether or not Attolia was ugly, he probably would still know that her cruelty is not a result of malicious intent, but for completely political reasons.

I was thinking of Nahuseresh... I wanted to say something about his looks, but now I can't remember. Hmm... I'll come back when it comes back to memory.

Oh, and since you pointed out a great, great concept to think about, how easily do you think Attolia would be able to manipulate men had she been ugly? It seems that despite her cruely, many men still become star-struck when they see her because she's drop dead gorgeous. (And on that note... how often do you think Attolia actually uses her beauty to get what she wants?)

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Nahuserfish was "good looking" because he used lots of cheap oil on his beard!
(Hope that jogs your memory!)

You know what? I don't think she does it too often. It almost felt like a first time with Narhuserfish! She's not a flirt, and she stole moves from her attendents (the batty eyelashes!) Not to mention her first husband was so rude and evil, she didn't play the "hottie" manipulator but the "quiet shy girl"

Honestly, I think she doesn't even realize how *beautiful* she is....she definitely didn't realize Dite was falling head over heels for her!!

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I think Elle brought up a good point, Attolia doesn't try to manipulate men with her beauty. Only Nahuseresh. There is one part in QoA when she hopes he doesn't discover what happened to the last man who tried to flatter her. It says in that same paragraph that she has never had patience for flattery. This is what I find to be the most impressive thing about her character. She uses her mind and her cunning to control her court, not her beauty.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Oh you nailed my question about that last bit. the first time I read QoA, I was a bit confused at the "My Queen" part. Because he only just changed Queens.
But I've always explained it to myself as "My Queen" is the only way she knows she can trust him. If she *is* his Queen. I mean he has good history with Eddis who was his Queen, and at that point I'm sure he's desperate for her trust.

On the other bit about beauty. We know that she's smart she's always been brilliant and head strong. Would Gen have fallen in love with her if she was as you say "hook nosed" and "chopped hair"? I think so, we know that while he spies on her, he falls in love. I can definitely see Gen watching her deal with barons and really having his heart go out to her for what she does and why. Gen fell in love with her before she cut off his hand, and he kept forgetting about her beauty. He's not star struck by it, but when he notices it, he is.

And of course there's the whole "more beautiful but more kind" to consider. You may be more beautiful, but she is more kind; is what Gen says to her in TT. So Gen can clearly see beyond the mask of beauty. (OR any mask Attolia Irene wears! for that matter)!

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

I always assumed that Gen thought it was the act of pretending to dance with imaginary friends and family that was beautiful, not only Irene herself
I think this is a good point. Not that he wasn't somewhat fascinated by her physical beauty as well, but I think this deep sadness in her gave her a real human quality of beauty that went deeper than her appearance.

Do you think he makes himself feel better by spying on someone much lonelier than he is?
Interesting question. I've seen a character like this before, in the manga Fruits Basket. There's a girl who befriends a member of her family who is cursed because she sees that his life is so much worse than hers, and it makes her feel better. But then her feelings grew into something more genuine and caring. I don't get any indication that Gen would have been motivated purely by this type of feeling, but that could have been part of it.

[zumie-ashlen.livejournal.com]

Haha, I view Attolia's redeeming qualities as the very ones people might not like. Cruelty? Check! I mean, she is not cruel for the sake of being cruel. She does it to keep her country under her rule, and secure from the other nations.

I think Gen's attraction is not so superficial that having her looks changed would change his feelings in the least. I mean, if you're going to let someone throw inkpots at your head and joke about poisoning you, it means you have something special, y'know?

[velvetrose09.livejournal.com]

True...I guess, but would he fall in love with her? Would it take longer? Would they just be friends?

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

In the 2nd chapter of QoA, right before the Gen-getting-slapped-for-smiling-impertinently scene, it says, "He had forgotten, as he always forgot, how beautiful she was." So that right there suggests to me that he wasn't fascinated by her beauty alone.

He would've been fairly familiar with her appearance (all that spying, you know) by then, though, and isn't it true that we forget to look at people sometimes? Especially the people that are closest to us. We may have initially thought them beautiful when we met them, but then failed to notice anymore... or in the case of growing up with people (Gen and Irene kind of grew up together) we may not realize how someone is changing... until it hits us all of a sudden, at unexpected moments. Just a thought.

Also, this is slightly off-topic, but a while back someone posted about the god Eugenides speaking through Gen... and as I read this passage in chapter 2 of QoA again, it stuck me how the Eddisian ambassador interrupts Attolia with, "Do not offend the gods." Kind of an odd thing to say just then, and Attolia's violent reaction made me wonder... could this have been a message? Or am I reading into it overmuch? Thoughts?

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Oh, that quote is a really good point.

I've never thought about that before, but there's two interesting aspects there - that Attolia, and Attolians in general, didn't really believe in the gods, so it's unusual for Ornon to say that; also, I think he was trying for a violent reaction. He wanted Gen to be hanged instead of tortured because it would have prevented a war. Doesn't Attolia tell Gen that - "your queen has conceded my right to have you hanged" or something similar, but not to be tortured? Nahuseresh, by stopping her, was trying to start a war.

[(Anonymous)]

In the 2nd chapter of QoA, right before the Gen-getting-slapped-for-smiling-impertinently scene, it says, "He had forgotten, as he always forgot, how beautiful she was." So that right there suggests to me that he wasn't fascinated by her beauty alone.

> Yes! He always seems to be struck by that. After he captures her and they have to climb up the mountain, he utterly dumbfounded by her "beauty and her scorn" when he tries to get her to stop climbing so fast. And towards the end of the novel, Eddis thinks about why he would be so fascinated by Attolia - Eddis knows it can't be beauty alone since there are plenty of beautiful women in Eddis's court, yet Eugenides doesn't really pay any attention to them.

[pysch-colours.livejournal.com]

hooked nose and choppy hair reminds me of cleopatra (the first because that's how she did look and the second because liz taylor looks absolutely ravishing like that), and i think there are parallels between irene and cleopatra that need exploring, but that's a whole other discussion.

but i do think so. i mean, attolia wasn't beautiful when she was younger, and that's when he first came to be fascinated by her. i do think part of the reason he does like her (and eventually love her) is for her beauty, but not just the physicality of her beauty, but the whole beauty equates good idea that's fixated in our minds (and fairytales do tend to repeat themselves across cultures, despite time and contact -- or lack of contact -- either htis or i am reading too many tvtropes pages) of you know, the beautiful good innocent girl who's all good, all the time, and the evil, ugly stepsisters (interchangeable with stepmother, old crone, witch, blahblahblah) who do bad things, and you know, how can someone so beautiful be so cruel? and that's what lead him to do his "research" on her, to try and find out why/how she became what she now is, if any of this is making sense.

obviously gen isn't superficial enough for that to be his only reason -- he genuinely feels bad for her, trapped in a cesspit of a court, unable to trust anyone, added with the diplomacy thing -- he is, after all, subservient to a neighbouring queen, and despite his fascination with her, while he is thief, he is loyal to eddis first -- and while i do think her beauty is part of the motivating factor (however small it might be), i also think that he could have fallen in love with her so long as he was intrigued by her personality enough to dig deeper (and i do think he would have, if only to protect eddis' sovereignty). just because you change the face doesn't mean that you change the person.

and going back to cleopatra -- she's known to us as a beautiful woman, but she wasn't really all that pretty, if you look at the coins that are depictions of her and possible statues of her & people modelling themselves after her. she had a hooked nose, she wasn't particularly jaw-dropping, but yet she got julius caesar to sleep with her and got him to say that cesarion was his son, and had mark antony wrapped around her finger (oh stacey schiff! i worship you so, not only for vera nabokov but now for this). i rather think it was the force of her personality that attracted these men to her, and i think we can all agree that attolia does have that certain charisma.

[pysch-colours.livejournal.com]

wow.
this was kinda incoherent. :/
need to work on that, don't i?

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Two things: first, way back in The Thief, when she's trying to get Gen to stay in her court, he says, "You are more beautiful - but she is more kind." And Attolia was flattered by the first part. I think she likes when people appreciate her beauty. I think that maybe she used it initially to misdirect people. People saw through that, though, or maybe it was just Gen. (When did she start dressing like Hephestia?)

Second, I think that she wants people to appreciate her beauty, but not to only see that. Gen probably thinks she's beautiful - but beauty's such a superficial thing and he's smart enough to know that. Also, she cut off his hand. And "calf love doesn't survive amputation". I think Gen definitely doesn't only love her because she's beautiful, but I do think she is who she is partly because she's beautiful. Nahuseresh is the only example we have in the books of a time when she used her beauty to fool someone, but who's to say she hasn't before?

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

You know I never thought she used it to her advantage too much, except for Narhuserfish, but now that you point out that scene in TT. I really think she might have. At least to lead people off, I'm sure her many barons might have thought she was a soft pretty lady until she reveals herself. The beauty is just another mask along with the cruelty. And this is Attolia we're talking about. Of course she'd utilize everything including a pen knife! :D

[(Anonymous)]

>(When did she start dressing like Hephestia?)

The Queen of Attolia seems to suggest around the year she began to consolidate her power as queen. She went to visit her old nurse who refused to come back and be one her attendents because she didn't want to endanger her family. Attolia had the gold and ruby headband made to replace the royal jewellery that she distributed to her vassals and to evoke the image of Hephestia, who ruled uncontested over the gods like Attolia intends to rule over her barons.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

I think Attolia does use her beauty to help support her role as Queen, but not in the flirty way she tried with Nahuserfish. She's like Queen Elizabeth I, maintaining an image that is both feminine and powerful --womanly but sexless. Wasn't Elizabeth I the "Virgin Queen"? Attolia uses her beauty to evoke a Godliness, not human woman's beauty. I expect her beauty makes her an easier figure to revere, as the Queen's Guard does, rather than just fear.

As for Gen's falling in love with Attolia, I've always actually appreciated the moments where he mentions her beauty (during QoA specifically) because it gives us *something* of note that he thinks about her to remember later. Most of the other things he likes about her are not mentioned. I think this may be part of the origin of your fear that beauty is a major reason he loves her. But I think that though beauty is only one of many things Gen admires about her, it's one of the few that mwt can mention without making us suspect the twist in QoA. Because we can assume Gen sees the queenly, god-like image Attolia encourages, while really he's seeing her as a person who he as thought about a great deal and whose role as queen is now a terrifying problem for him because he's caught.

One thing that gave me pause when I first got to the end of QoA was that all along I'd been assuming Gen's constant reiteration of Attolia's beauty was a statement of fact and nothing more. Like, I assumed anyone else would have constantly mentioned that about her too. Then when I realized he did actually love her and was interested in her the whole time, I realized his constant mention of her beauty and the sense of awe he seems to have is a hint that he is thinking about her more than we know, and in a different way than we'd expect. (For instance, when he "closes his eyes against the glare of the torches" when they first meet in QoA, and when he "turns his head to continue looking at her as they lead him away" (paraphrased greatly!)). There is obviously more going through his mind and emotions in these moments than her beauty, but the very fact that he's thinking about her beauty is surprising in those situations. Consider that Costis never emphasizes Attolia's beauty, at least not in the way Gen does... instead, Costis talks about her presence, which he finds terrifying and inspiring (he feels like he is creeping away when he leaves...). Costis doesn't see her as a woman at all until he catches her when she faints. Gen, when he is wounded and captured by Attolia, has far more reason to emphasize his captor's terrifying qualities than Costis does when he is merely questioned about Gen looking out the window. In his fear, Gen could have seen her as a marble-faced monster, he could have described her aura of power. But instead he just mentions her beauty. It certainly points to the fact that his feelings towards her are not as one would expect.

Gen says he forgot, as he always did, how beautiful she was. When I first read that I took it to mean that he always remembered her terrifying qualities as a queen and forgot about the beauty until confronted with it. But on re-reading I took it to mean that although he thinks about her a lot, he still can't reproduce in his mind the true impression she makes. What I'm not sure of is what that impression is. Is Gen remembering that she looks god-like, and therefore that her power is frightening? Or (as I think) is Gen's mention of her beauty an indication that he constantly sees her as a human being even when he is frightened by the situation, and that he marvels that a human he remembered for other reasons is also beautiful?

(if that made sense).

All in all, "beauty" in those scenes stands in for a lot of conflicting emotion on Gen's part, a signpost that *there is more here than you think, oh reader, so pay attention...*. :-P



And sorry, tl;dr, I know. :(

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Attolia uses her beauty to evoke a Godliness, not human woman's beauty.

This is a great point!

In fact, your whole comment is great.

[liereicarine.livejournal.com]

The next time I re-read the books, I am going to look out for all the "beauty" scenes! Good insight.

I think Gen keeps forgetting how beautiful she is because when he's away from her, it's so easy to believe those stories of how she's a cruel monster instead of a person. When Gen thinks she's more beautiful than he remembered, he means not just that she's physically beautiful but that she is attractive to him as a person too. Physical beauty can be remembered as though admiring an artwork. Some people you know are beautiful, but you don't like them in person. But her beauty is attracting him on a very personal, human basis.

He is fascinated by her and drawn to her. He really wants to figure her out, because although people talk about her like a inhumane demon, she seems like a real person to him whenever he interacts with her. The impression he gets in person (ever since he saw her dancing) is a girl who wants to be loved, of someone who doesn't do things for vindictiveness, of someone who's rational, who thinks and has reasons for what she does. She's a person who flinches at being accused of being unkind. People talk about her as though she's a demon, and he questions because she is so beautiful, in that she is so appealing to him as a person.

[velvetrose09.livejournal.com]

I think that's a really good point, that he sees the woman and not the Frightening Queen of Attolia. He knows she's there, but I only wonder if he would fall in love if she was ugly. Though at this point I'm sure he would. He absolutely would.

I think you bring up a great point. Yeah, she's pretty, but it doesn't attract as much as it scares people off, they don't realize she's even human...and yet she is. She so is, and he (Gen) realizes that. I think you did a fantastic job of pointing that out.
Thanks for the insight!

SORRY! This is a great topic.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

I know, I'm going on and on........ er...on..

But something else came to me! in the Thief, "the velvet was soft, but the embroidery scratched" --the embroidery is what's on the outside, I've always taken it to mean her terrifying persona but her beauty is prob part of that, isn't it. Embroidery is superficial. It's the velvet underneath that's good. So that double-layered quality is there even in The Thief, and Gen must see through the beauty to know the jibe at her lack of kindness will be wounding.

I'm coming to associate beauty with her queenly mask more and more, and less and less with what he must love about her. Hm..

Re: SORRY! This is a great topic.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

INSIGHTFUL

Re: SORRY! This is a great topic.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

I have a question for this one. But don't worry, it's completely independent of what you said, so don't feel as if I'm not agreeing with you or anything. ^^ I actually think you make wonderful points!

I've been puzzled about that scene where Gen tells Attolia that she's less kind than his mistress. Maybe I'm just uber slow or I lack rereads, but I've always considered that scene quite unfair for Gen.

Why did Attolia get so pissed that Gen said she was less kind? I've always thought that she hated it when people lied to her (I mean, not only hated, but considered it a terrible crime and betrayal for which she can and will execute people for.) Either way, if Gen had flattered her or said what he said, she'd still be angry at him. And he had had to say something to explain why he must choose his 'mistress' over her.

And... I don't know. It almost seems like it was a pretty well-known fact. I'd have thought that Attolia would accept it readily much like how Eddis accepts her unattractiveness readily. Is she just angry that people rub it in her face or something? Or angry that people don't consider her anything but cruel? I sort of thought that was the whole point of her mask...

[charlie-ego.livejournal.com]

In KoA, isn't there a pair of sisters where Gen always wants to dance with the homely but more interesting one (and their dad is not pleased about this)? So I think that would be fairly good evidence that beauty isn't the thing that attracts him about people.

...hazelwillow, I like what you say about beauty being associated with the queenly mask. It reminds me of what Costis' friend (sorry, I don't have my books with me!) says about Attolia: he loves her and would die for her (not because of her beauty but because of her queenly characteristics... but I could imagine the beauty plays into the image of a ruthlessly fair goddess-like queen), but would never ever want to marry her.

[(Anonymous)]

The older sister (Themis) is also twice-widowed and better versed in intrigues, along with being more attractive, than the younger less experienced one (Heiro), who apparently has nicer earrings.

I think the father and Baron Erondites expected Gen was an idiot who could be led around and they needed Themis to become his mistress and tell him which attendants to pick and generally use him like a puppet. And being and "idiot", he kept dancing with the wrong sister.