Cups and questions
Feb. 21st, 2011 11:30 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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queensthiefI've been wanting to post for a whole month now, but got a little diverted by almost accidentally buying a house.
I took a bunch of notes on a recent re-read of QoA and KoA. Mostly I was looking for evidence about some pet questions and timeline info, but some of it might be interesting.
1. About Cups. I thought it would be cool to record every time cups seemed significantly mentioned so we could talk about what metaphors seem to be going on (like the cup/kingdom thing) and whether they are inter-book or intra-book or what. I have my QoA list, which I will put in a comment. It is probably not perfect, but a start. I think the KoA (still on sticky notes) and CofK (not even started) will be more fun.
2. Some questions from the re-read of QoA, in order of whether I think they've been discussed yet.
a) In Eddis and Attolia's conversation (on p. 307 in my paperback) after their armies join, before they remember Gen is still locked up, Attolia mentions that the Mede emperor chose his nephew as his heir over his son. Why? (Why'd he pass over his son, and why was it mentioned, and why is it going to matter?)
b) Around p. 121 when Eddis has been "caught" visiting her Thief at night and she is discussing how she doesn't worry too much about Therespides as a spy, she mentions more worrisome unknown spies who have revealed to Attolia their plans regarding the cannon. Do you feel like this was just mentioned so we could hear about the troop movements, or are these spies going to pop up again? And who could they be?
c) When Attolia can't sleep one night,(p.207) she thinks for a while, takes out the ruby earrings, flicks them around without touching them, and suddenly can go to sleep. I have always had trouble with this. What about the earrings makes her able to rest? My best guess is based on a later passage that says she was kept up at night wondering when she had stooped so low as to torture boys, and I guess the earrings reminded her that he was dangerous enough to get into her bed chamber and thus not an innocent boy in that sense, so her conscience could rest. But I do not feel sure about this. Anything else to back that up, or any better ideas?
d) When Eddis is talking to Gen after his day at the war hospital and they get into being pawns of the gods,(p.170 for me) they bring up Hiamathes's gift and its "properties" and each ponders them for a bit. I must be being really dense about this, but I have never really understood why. Please, help.
e) When Attolia balks at the whole temple to Hephestia thing, Eugenides says he had taken a vow that if he became king it would be built (345). I cannot find this vow. Can anyone find it? If not, do you think it was something he did formally in front of people before leaving Eddis, or a promise he made privately in a bargain-with-the-gods type way to be on his side?
And five questions is enough for one post. I will save the pot-stirrers for another day.
I took a bunch of notes on a recent re-read of QoA and KoA. Mostly I was looking for evidence about some pet questions and timeline info, but some of it might be interesting.
1. About Cups. I thought it would be cool to record every time cups seemed significantly mentioned so we could talk about what metaphors seem to be going on (like the cup/kingdom thing) and whether they are inter-book or intra-book or what. I have my QoA list, which I will put in a comment. It is probably not perfect, but a start. I think the KoA (still on sticky notes) and CofK (not even started) will be more fun.
2. Some questions from the re-read of QoA, in order of whether I think they've been discussed yet.
a) In Eddis and Attolia's conversation (on p. 307 in my paperback) after their armies join, before they remember Gen is still locked up, Attolia mentions that the Mede emperor chose his nephew as his heir over his son. Why? (Why'd he pass over his son, and why was it mentioned, and why is it going to matter?)
b) Around p. 121 when Eddis has been "caught" visiting her Thief at night and she is discussing how she doesn't worry too much about Therespides as a spy, she mentions more worrisome unknown spies who have revealed to Attolia their plans regarding the cannon. Do you feel like this was just mentioned so we could hear about the troop movements, or are these spies going to pop up again? And who could they be?
c) When Attolia can't sleep one night,(p.207) she thinks for a while, takes out the ruby earrings, flicks them around without touching them, and suddenly can go to sleep. I have always had trouble with this. What about the earrings makes her able to rest? My best guess is based on a later passage that says she was kept up at night wondering when she had stooped so low as to torture boys, and I guess the earrings reminded her that he was dangerous enough to get into her bed chamber and thus not an innocent boy in that sense, so her conscience could rest. But I do not feel sure about this. Anything else to back that up, or any better ideas?
d) When Eddis is talking to Gen after his day at the war hospital and they get into being pawns of the gods,(p.170 for me) they bring up Hiamathes's gift and its "properties" and each ponders them for a bit. I must be being really dense about this, but I have never really understood why. Please, help.
e) When Attolia balks at the whole temple to Hephestia thing, Eugenides says he had taken a vow that if he became king it would be built (345). I cannot find this vow. Can anyone find it? If not, do you think it was something he did formally in front of people before leaving Eddis, or a promise he made privately in a bargain-with-the-gods type way to be on his side?
And five questions is enough for one post. I will save the pot-stirrers for another day.
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Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/22/11 04:42 am (UTC)*1. p.64: At his first dinner back with the court, when Eugenide's cup is re-filled he notes centaurs on it with two hands and puts it down empty. The two cups leave him light-headed later.
2. p.177: Eugenides is sitting next to Agape in a "foul mood" having overheard Attolia's threats. He can't get his wine-cup filled and reaches over to take his father's. After drinking that, he gets it filled twice again, although Agape convinces him not to drink the last re-fill. (He later gets drunk with the guards.)
*3. p.202 and 203: The story of Attolia and he fiancee, how he took her cup "as casually as he had taken her country," choked on it, and died.
4. p.245: Attolia has agreed to marry Eugenides, mostly because the alternative is disater for her kingdom, and warns him never to drink from her wine cup while he hopes to live.
*5. p.311: When the queens find half-dead/half-asleep Eugenides in Ephrata, there is a broken wine cup on the floor by him with spilled lees.(I think this is the first interesting one we haven't talked about yet, but I want to see what other people have to say first.)
Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/22/11 06:32 am (UTC)So, yeah, I'd say the centaurs on the cup are meaningful there. There a hint that Eugenides is trying to run away from his cares through any means available to him -- after seeing the centaurs, he's not in his right mind.
Huh. I wonder if the broken cup at the end (your #5) represents him coming back into himself. He is very much in a liminal space in QoA -- he's kind of a dead man walking, if you will, and the broken wine cup is a nice visual signal of his transition from that state back to the land of the living.
Ooh! And there's that trip by water in the boat that he and Attolia take, which irreversibly changes both of them. That's downright Stygian. They've both been brought back from the dead -- Attolia learns how to have emotions again.
Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/27/11 04:15 am (UTC)My english teacher told us about "baptisms" in literature, how when a character submerges themself in water it's often symbolic of a change. Gen and Attolia don't go under, but as you said, they're making a crossing. Going with the water/change thing, Gen realizes that the gods are real and comes into possession of the gift in the temple UNDER the Aracthus. And maybe we could even extend it to the guards' bathhouse? Where we see Gen's wrist muscles and scars, and they further realize that he's King.
Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/22/11 02:44 pm (UTC)Regarding number 5--this moment is obviously a crucial one for Attolia, and it's thus particularly fascinating that a cup is part of it. On the surface, of course, it represents the very real possibility that he's been poisoned (which actually, with the sand stuff, remains a possibility through all the rest of the books, disturbingly enough). The fact that it's a broken cup is also interesting--are there other broken cups? We'll have to watch out for that as we go along.
One last thing--in other literature (I'm thinking of two extremely disparate sources, namely eighteenth-century British Literature and Elizabeth Wein's Aksum novels) it's what's in the cup, like coffee or tea, that's significant. Here it seems to be mostly wine. If we keep noticing cups, we should watch out for the idea of whether it's the cup itself or its contents, or both, that's most attention-grabbing.
Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/22/11 04:35 pm (UTC)I can't remember any time when the drink isn't wine, although it would be good to do a second tally of when it's wine + something else.
Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/22/11 07:02 pm (UTC)Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/22/11 09:08 pm (UTC)Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/22/11 09:26 pm (UTC)Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/22/11 10:20 pm (UTC)Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/23/11 01:31 am (UTC)I'm trying to see if there's evidence for your cup being your life, or your life's path, or responsibility, or something. There are a couple of different ways that could work, and I haven't really nailed it down yet. Here, in 5, when his cup breaks it could mean the end of his time as Thief of Eddis and the beginning as King of Attolia. His thief-cup broken. That meaning also comes into my head whenever someone doesn't want what's in their cup or tries for someone else's. It's also sort of connected to a mention in one of the myths in The Thief, I think, of the original Eugenides's cup being tainted bitter with the coleus root, and so that his life would be bitter as well, but I haven't gotten to re-read and find that part yet.
Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/27/11 07:54 am (UTC)Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/22/11 04:33 pm (UTC)This is mainly fascinating to me for the complete reversal of the scene in KoA.
I wonder if your #5 has something to do with the no longer being Eddisian thing. If we're going with the cups-as-country metaphor.
Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/23/11 01:32 am (UTC)Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/23/11 07:34 am (UTC)So... WOAH! I just had one of those LIGHTBULB MOMENTS! It was like a message from Moira while reading the assembled cup lines. Such a good idea to put them together like this!
So, wait, let me see if this makes sense. *mutter grumble mutter*
Ummm... this scene is from Irene's point of view... it's all about her realizing her feelings for Gen. So what if we read the cup in relation to Irene. She sees this little tableau through the door of Gen and the cup and it convinces her Gen is dead. The broken cup is a big part of what makes her think he's dead, because she associates cups with poison (for the reason we all know) and it's broken so it looks like he drank the poison and dropped the cup as the poison took effect. (by the way, how DID he break the cup? I always wonder).
The cup serves the purpose of convincing Irene he's dead, so it's important for that reason.
But Irene has all this baggage around cups. Helen doesn't have that and thus she sees that Gen's just sleeping. But from Irene's point of view, the cup becomes a sort of false symbol --a symbol of what *could* have happened had Gen actually been dead: i.e. her country and herself be shattered. (Attolia descend once more into chaos, Eddis believe her culpable for Gen's death and return to war, the Medes come, and on a personal level the loss of all hope and humanity for Irene). If Gen had actually been poisoned it would have been the result of Irene's treacherous and poisonous court atmosphere (forgive the pun), it would have been the victory of the forces of violence in her life. Including herself as a force of violence. Gen said he's afraid of losing her and I think she would have been lost.
But that all turns out to be false.
SO HERE IS MY WHOA MOMENT! She warned him "never to drink from her wine cup while he hopes to live" (such irony!) and here she sees her threat come true. She thinks she has (inadvertently) poisoned him (or allowed him to be poisoned when she was responsible for him). And this causes her pain. And what the pain means is that this method she had of keeping control (poisoning suitors lols) is gone.
So, I think the cup represented not only the country, but also her violent methods of keeping the country. Her threats towards Gen, etc. SO I think the broken cup is Attolia's calculated-murderess-persona breaking. Which... so... the object she thinks symbolizes that violence has won is actually indicating the opposite. Peace has won! [How does MWT DO these things?!]
All that is just what happens in the scene, so... I guess my Moira moment wasn't as out of the blue as I thought at the time. Heh... ah well.
Thoughts? Perhaps my message was from Eugenides instead, and may be moon-faced?
Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/23/11 07:48 am (UTC)Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/24/11 02:37 am (UTC)Yes, I know, much bigger fish to comment on than that, but I need time to process the rest.
Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/25/11 04:28 am (UTC)Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/28/11 05:34 pm (UTC)Re: Cups Stuffs
Date: 2/27/11 04:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/22/11 06:37 am (UTC)2b) I don't know; I have to admit to not really having an opinion about them.
2c) I really like that theory! I had thought that it was just the activity of moving around, taking the time to think, and having something tangible to focus her attention that allowed her to sleep. I think the earrings always had a special meaning to her that she never really allowed herself to acknowledge; examining them (but never allowing herself to touch them!) was as close as she could come to acknowledging the connection she felt between her and Gen.
2d) I read that as Hamiathes gift bringing about the focus of the gods onto them, and the completely unsettling discomfort that comes from that - Gen having been not allowed to die; Eddis having the nightmares about the mountain exploding.
2e) I believe it would be a private thing. Gen has a close relationship to the gods, and he also hates being the centre of attention.
no subject
Date: 2/22/11 07:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/23/11 07:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/22/11 08:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/22/11 02:48 pm (UTC)(Also--I suppose nephews inheriting from uncles isn't an unusual power relationship, but I think it's interesting that we've got two of them in these books...)
no subject
Date: 2/24/11 02:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/23/11 07:43 am (UTC)*The only word of Mede I know is Remchik and I thought it would be confusing as a swear-word. Though it sounds a bit like one. It sounds cuss-able.
no subject
Date: 2/23/11 07:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/25/11 04:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/23/11 08:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/23/11 01:37 am (UTC)2c)I kinda read it that way before,too. But it never really clicked with me, and usually when I find the right meaning it clicks. This way clicks, though softly.
2d)That makes sense. I was getting stuck on "the properties" of the stone being that it keeps the one to whom it is given alive and traditionally is a sign of right to rule.
2e)I lean that way, too, but I was curious if there were other thoughts, or other mentions I'd missed, or something.
no subject
Date: 2/22/11 01:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/22/11 04:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/22/11 11:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/22/11 04:31 pm (UTC)2b) I suspect that it's just to tell us about the plot movements, but it's MWT, so WHO KNOWS.
2c) I don't know exactly, but I guess my very fuzzy notion was that she feels they represent some kind of hope that he doesn't completely hate her. Although, looking at the passage, I'm not sure they do help her sleep. It reads: "She snapped the case closed, laid her robe over a chair, and went back to bed and finally to sleep." It's definitely ambiguous, so now I'm not sure how that works.
2e) I suspect private. Gen's public declarations of belief in the gods are few and far between. In front of a couple of people, yes, but not in the sense of publicly swearing anything. (I think the gods in this world would take great delight in using that to trip him up later.)
no subject
Date: 2/23/11 01:40 am (UTC)2c - I thought "finally" meant after all that sitting and thinking and earring-flicking. It sounds like she doesn't bother getting into bed until she thinks she is going to be able to fall asleep, or she would have been lying there the whole time.
2e) Yeah. I thought maybe someone remembered another mention, or thought it was part of an Eddisian ritual of oaths or something, since they seem to have a bunch of those. But private does seem more in-character.
In which I get side-tracked into a rant about Crete. Sorry!
Date: 2/23/11 06:22 am (UTC)This thing about the emperor of the Mede having a disease always reminds me of Crete and the novel The King Must Die, which was a re-telling of Theseus and the Minotaur. In it, the king of Crete secretly has leprosy. Crete is, of course, a super-power that has subjugated the nearby mainland city-states and demands a tribute for the Minotaur/bull dance. The king's decline and death happens as his capitol city crumbles under an earthquake and his empire ends. Hopefully this will be the Mede's fate too! However, it seems he has an heir. :(
Aside: at the same time, I think Crete could also be represented by our trio of countries, especially Eddis. Crete is supposed to have been this ancient, peaceful, advanced civilization that had indoor plumbing etc. but was Lost Somehow --possibly because of an earthquake or natural disaster. Eddis is a pantheistic civilization that almost seems like a hold-out of a more ancient age, and the books seem to be about the end of an era (Eddis being "the last Eddis" etc). The volcano-to-come mirrors Crete's earthquake in my mind. I think there may have been some reference to Crete in an Author's Note that fixed all this in my head...
But I try not to think about these things with Crete because the implications for Eddis are potentially sad, and some of the themes of The King Must Die are not ones I want applied to Eugenides. I just don't. He's a king. I don't want him to have to sacrifice himself for his people! And I don't want the MOW to throw himself off a cliff when he thinks his son has died, either. Even if they name a sea after him. [Minister-of-War-aean Sea? Hm...)
BUT OMG it just occurred to me HOW AWESOME WOULD IT BE if Gen went to Medea undercover the way Theseus does!? I could so picture him creeping around in the labyrinth below the Medes' palace...! :D And happily I don't think there's much of a chance of Irene leaving Gen for the God of Wine, the only stupid part of the Theseus story.
no subject
Date: 2/23/11 07:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/24/11 02:44 am (UTC)Re: In which I get side-tracked into a rant about Crete. Sorry!
Date: 2/24/11 07:12 pm (UTC)This is exactly why I get really nervous whenever I think about all the Rosemary Sutcliff connections. No Mark of the Horse Lord, please!
Re: In which I get side-tracked into a rant about Crete. Sorry!
Date: 2/24/11 10:52 pm (UTC)Re: In which I get side-tracked into a rant about Crete. Sorry!
Date: 2/24/11 11:12 pm (UTC)And now I shall retire, having commented about a gazillion times on this post.
Re: In which I get side-tracked into a rant about Crete. Sorry!
Date: 2/25/11 04:31 am (UTC)I haven't actually read Mark of the Horse Lord, but maybe I should. OR maybe I shouldn't. :(
Re: In which I get side-tracked into a rant about Crete. Sorry!
Date: 2/27/11 04:37 am (UTC)What a crappy way to find out what his given name actually is.
Though I suppose there's the possibility his mother looked at him when he was born and said, "He looks like a minister of war." I mean, babies do look an awful lot like Winston Churchill.
another view on 2a
Date: 2/28/11 02:56 am (UTC)On the nephew inheriting: I felt that this was important because it meant that court politics at home between factions supporting a son and factions supporting the nephew would be likely to occupy the nephew as he came into power leaving him less time to harass the Medes’ neighbors. I think it is in KoA where Gen says something to Attolia about the emperor's nephew consolidating power more quickly than she expected, which seemed to confirm this view.
Re: another view on 2a
Date: 2/28/11 05:44 pm (UTC)And, yeah, in QoA, they're definitely relieved that it's a nephew for that reason, so we as readers are, too - which makes the machinations by the Mede in CofK more unexpected, which makes me wonder, since there really wasn't a reprieve after all, why that comment was included.
no subject
Date: 2/28/11 05:52 pm (UTC)2. Speaking of informative, I want to hear about the house. Did you actually buy it? The first sentence is a bit ambiguous. If so, you can bring this comment back on-topic by mentioning where the shelves for the mwt books are.
:)
no subject
Date: 3/1/11 01:51 am (UTC)2) The above-referenced house, no. But we have an offer in now on a second house, which has much more room for book shelves. We're endeavoring to skip the starter-home step and jump right into something that could hold 2.5 kids, a dog named Spot, and our parents visiting for extended periods, so it's a 4 br ranch with a mostly-finished basement that I am fantasizing about using part of as a badminton court until it's actually needed. It's got a sweet back yard and is right near a nature preserve - full of trees to make into bookshelves? Or to wander in Gen-on-a-mission-like solitude? Gen would probably not approve as it lacks flair and there are a few tragic paint-color choices as well as chipped counter tops. Basically, it looks like his cousin Eddis. But I would rather live in a Helen-Eddis house than an Irene-Attolia one any day.
no subject
Date: 3/1/11 03:04 am (UTC)