Crisis of Faith

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

Crazededdisian's most recent comments on the post about Costis got me thinking more about The Jump from the palace roof at the beginning of QoA again, in relation to the line in KoA we were discussing when Gen says if he tried it now he's probably eviscerate himself, which is of course true - and also in relation to two more things:

1. A line someone else delivers, probably Ornon, about how Gen had confessed to them that he often thought the distance was beyond him, but he did it anyway, which I always took to be a sign of utter faith in his god - that, as he was in his role of thief, he was safe unless his god willed otherwise

2. The king telling Costis he has a "superstitious fear of falling" at the top of the stairs after the assassination attempt, when Gen shouldn't be afraid of falling down stairs, because his belief is that the won't do that until his god is done with him, unless he's so rattled by the attack that he's afraid his time is up

Now, I always thought Gen's faith was firm all through KoA. I mean, the gods pretty much told him just a few months ago exactly why they had done everything that looked like forsaking him. The walking around on the parapets was a demonstration of that faith, right? But now I'm wondering.

So. "I would probably eviscerate myself." Is it just being realistic for once, or is it an admission that he's a bit worried at the moment that his god is done preserving him? And what does it mean in the context of the rest of that scene?

I know each of these things has been discussed before, but have they been looked at together?

Comments

[keestone.livejournal.com]

I don't know that it would have to be that his faith in his god isn't as firm now. He's definitely working through the question of what he is throughout the book, and whether the gods can be trusted not to betray Gen or not, Eugenedies is the god of thieves. Now that Gen is a King is he still a Thief? Can he expect the same protection if he isn't? He definitely doesn't have the isolation and freedom of a Thief anymore, and if he did fall the consequences would affect all his subjects.

In which case, the drunken walking on the parapets could be both defiance and a test (which he'd probably not do sober).

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

I don't know that it would have to be that his faith in his god isn't as firm now.</>

Yeah, I should have said that differently. I really like what you said, though!

[crazededdisian.livejournal.com]

Wow, I read that first word and grinned like a loon!

I suspect that Gen's "demonstration of faith" was his way of testing the gods. And I have no idea about what his statement means. ("Go jump" would be a terrible insult to a thief!)

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

I should have done that fancy thing to make your username pop out, but I keep forgetting how and didn't feel like hitting preview over and over until I got it right. We'll wait until I'm procrastinating from something else for that. :)

I hadn't thought of it as a test before because of how he calls it a demonstration, but maybe, yeah, more like testing a theory than testing Them. Testing to find out if they're still behind him or not so he can stop worrying and wondering.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Interesting point, and one I've thought about before. (Not to mention one of my favorite moments in the entire series... which is saying a lot.)

I always got the impression Gen was asking himself whether he could be both king AND thief. If not, he'd be wondering if the antics of his thief-days were now beyond him, especially in light of his kingly injuries. In the past he firmly believed that he would die falling... the curse and the privilege of thieves. But if he's not technically the thief anymore, should he worry about other possibilities? His varied near-death experiences in Attolia have certainly left him in some doubt over the course of the series.

What I love about this scene, though, is the reaffirmation. Eugenides (the god) playfully scares Gen out of his mind... but catches him. It always struck me as a turning point for Gen, after which he gets back on his confident, silent stride and causes all manner of mischief and wonderment among the Attolian court. =)

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

Okay, yes, I love how you put this into words! It's like I've had chunks of those feelings floating around, but you verbalized them (except for the 'playful' bit, which never struck me that way before, and now I will have to look at it again). Thank you!

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

:) I find it easy to wax eloquent about the marvelousness of MWT.

[katewaits.livejournal.com]

I just finished a reread of KoA today and so I was just reading this very scene. The reaffirmation really struck me this time around. Gen is wondering if he's still covered as a thief and then it's pretty much proven by his god that he is. Of course, it's not only Eugenides who has shown an ongoing interest in him, so there's still some vagueness to plague him yet.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

The mysterious personage (goddess?) that intervened on Gen's behalf at the end of QoA? I wonder who she is, and why she's taken an interest in our "little thief" (as she calls him). No pressure, MWT, but I expect GREAT THINGS. ;)

On a slightly related note, does anyone else think it significant that Costis heard the god Eugenides's voice? Is this an indicator of some kind that Costis is entering the god's service/notice/big exciting plan via Gen? Or can anyone hear it when a god speaks? The reason I wonder is because Gen's interactions with the gods are seen as something of a novelty (the veil for him is always a little thin, and all that jazz), and Costis, being of the "normal person" classification, is pretty aghast to discover how real the gods can be. (Another instance of gods only appearing to their intended audience is when Kamet snoozes through Nahuseresh's conversation with the messenger in QoA.) Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

She's interested because he's so darned cute! Actually, I think she said he sacrificed at her altar once. Must be a very out-of-way altar for her to care so much?

I definitely found it interesting that Costis heard the god, but didn't see him... I don't think the gods always had plans for Costis - more likely Gen brought him to their intention and they're just starting to see him as a potential tool.

I was going to say that since Nahusseresh could see and hear a god, it must not mean you're anything special, but he saw and heard Moira in her messenger role, which might be an exception.

[katewaits.livejournal.com]

Yes, Moira seems to appear to a lot of people -- Sophos, Helen, Irene, Gen, Nahuzeresh ... but I can't recall any of the actual gods appearing to anyone else. Hm. Helen confabbed with a god in her short story, right?

I think it definitely means something big for Costis that he heard Eugenides. It may mean he's going to become a thief or spy, or it may just tie him together with Gen for the rest of his life. How did Gen know Costis had heard the voice?

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

Yes, Helen met Eugenides, Moira, and a goddess called Periphys in the short story when she was a little girl, but they made the memory fade until she became queen.

I'm guessing it just didn't occur to Gen that Costis hadn't heard the god. Perhaps he even thought Costis saw him as well? I don't know.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Gen was also falling and was caught by something invisible. I think that must have been fairly noticeable, enough so that Gen would know it would have looked weird to Costis, whether or not Costis heard him. I'm guessing Gen could read Costis's face, too, though, and could surmise from his look of flabberghasted wonder/horror that he had also heard the voice.
I wonder if Eugenides-the-god arranged for that to happen *so that* Costis would start believing in him/be drawn more deeply into Gen's plans. It certainly seems like an implicit sign of confidence in Costis from the god.

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

I don't think that Eugenides was invisible to Gen. I thought he saw him - why he "recoiled farther" and also how he was able to reach out with his hand to grab onto what looked to Costis like nothingness.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

I agree, didn't mean to imply otherwise... (thought I never noticed the "recoiled farther" being from when he must catch sight of Eugenides... now I feel dumb. Good catch! pun intended :P).

I just meant that Gen's almost falling and being righted must have been dramatic enough there'd be no way Costis could be unaware of the godly presence, from Gen's point of view. That's all. However, I realize now you were talking specifically about the voice, not how Gen knew Costis knew about Eugenides (phew, that's convoluted!). That's what I get for not reading carefully! :P

I also agree with you, re: Gen could have assumed Costis saw him as well.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

"He always jumps." - I always thought it was such a simple, powerful line.

I don't know, I feel like it might be a running conflict for him. That he knows he'll only fall if the god lets him, and he absolutely believes that fact, but maybe every time, he wonders at the back of his mind if this will be the time. And usually it's not. And he's a risk-taker anyway, so he'll show Costis what he means when he says that the god catches him, and he'll jump.

I think I always took that line to mean that if he jumped without the god's assistance, he would eviscerate himself.

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

I actually just realized that he says he'll eviscerate himself when he lands, which could be construed as he's still trusting the god to get him across the chasm, but that his body would fail him afterwards. What do you think?

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I guess? I think I would read it as, when he's in the air he wouldn't come into contact with anything to injure him - it would only happen when he lands.

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

Well, I was feeling like he would eviscerate himself because he's not healed from his injury - that a landing that he normally would have been able to handle, he wouldn't, not because the god "dropped" him. But then I remembered, it's not like he's never fallen. Eddis in QoA recalls a time when he slipped on an icy wall, although he presumably was only a thief then, not the The Thief. Still, interesting.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

I assumed it would be harder to land and roll without use of both hands... and also that he is not as strong, health-wise, as he was before.

This line has always made me desperately sad. The idea that he may never be able to do those things again.. :(

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

Yes, sadness!

[katecoombs.livejournal.com]

I just thought Gen was being snarky/frustrated about his hook again, meaning that he would land on the hook and eviscerate himself with it.

As for Gen roaming the heights, I get such a feeling of restlessness from him in KoA. He's trapped in this court, this palace, this new life. Or is he? I agree that he has to make peace with his new role. If he stops being sneaky, he's no longer Gen. So how can he be his sneaky self in this new, constrictive setting, especially with just one hand?

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Ohh, that's a good point about landing on the hook. Ouch. He could always take it off, though. I took "now" to mean "these days in general" but maybe he means "right now." I think he is wearing the hook at that moment?

Me too, I get a feeling of Gen being trapped in KoA. That's one of the reasons I don't like it as much as QoA; that aspect just makes me so sad. And the end doesn't resolve that for me at all. He still seems better suited, personality-wise, to being a spy or thief (I do think he is still a thief) than a King. Except for the fact that he's an amazing strategist.

Do you think this is ever going to be resolved? Or will it always be a source of conflict for him?

[katecoombs.livejournal.com]

Good point. But don't you think there's a difference sometimes between what people want for themselves and what they're capable of? Case in point--Sophos; I've just decided he can be a metaphor for Gen. Or vice versa.

To tie it together, there's what the guard captain (I forget names all the time!) said about Gen at the end of KofA when somebody said Gen should be a prince (basilius?) and he says no, a king over other kings (annux?). Maybe I mixed those up, but you get the idea.

In other words, Gen has gifts that make him capable of stealing small things like his relatives' jewelry, but also larger things like, say, magic amulets, queens, kingdoms, and perhaps even empires. Along the way, his potential for greatness will rob him [No pun intended, but I like it!] of a certain amount of carefree randomness, let alone privacy. Maybe that's why he seems to be pouting at Sophos through most of CofK. ["I pout in your general direction."] :)

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this! I actually feel a bit better about the whole thing, thinking about it this way. Gen might be happier in some ways being the (somewhat, relatively, sort-of) carefree Thief with more privacy, liberty, and ability to snark at people without making them afraid of execution, but it would be kind of sad that he wouldn't be fulfilling his potential. Maybe I should look at it in terms of (what's the quote) not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country? Gen is anything but selfish, that's for sure.

Yes... thanks!

The fact is, I love Gen's thiefy abilities so much I get a little stuck on that aspect sometimes. Hehe.

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

I think he's resolving it a bit in CofK. Aris seems used to him sneaking out at night, and he seems to have enlisted help in preparing to take on Nahusseresh, and he shows some mojo speaking in front of the court and stuff. But I think anyone who lives in the public eye is always going to yearn to get away. And a lot of the time you do sort of end up feeling trapped into something you very much don't want because of something else you do want very much.