another question from QoA

[missmoonbeam.livejournal.com]

i have to say again, you guys are truly awesome. really enjoyed reading all the answers in the last post.

before i move on to KoA, i have one more question from QoA. sorry, SPOILERS below (someone please tell me how to do that link thing, please).

it says in the book that:

"Politically the loss of Eugenides's service was severe. ....But Attolia hadn't had merely a political loss in mind. If she'd wanted Eddis to be without the Thief's services, she could have executed him. She meant to hurt Eddis at every level, and she had succeeded."

and later eddis tells eugenides:

" ...she wanted something that would hurt you and me more."

i can understand why having his hand cut off would be worse for eugenides than dying (he obviously wouldnt feel anything after he was dead), but why would it hurt eddis more and "at every level"? i mean, if i were to have a choice between having a loved one die or just lose his or her hand, i would pick having them alive. so what do you guys think? 

Comments

[claire-mirkwood.livejournal.com]

Woo! As it so happens, I love this topic.
See, Gen is a thief by birth, and he has no intention of ever being anything else. Remember when Attolia had just cut off his hand and she asked him, "What can you steal with one hand?"
His answer was "Nothing." And that's exactly right: a man can steal nothing with his right hand missing.
All those people you're talking about, they aren't the Thief of Eddis. They can get replacement limbs or get a job where that limb is not needed. Not only is Gen living in an era in which there is no access to robotic replacements and higher medical care, he also literally has no purpose outside of his thievery.
By cutting off his hand, Attolia rendered him useless to his queen, useless to the world, useless to himself. Being smart and god-led, Attolia knew that if she just killed Gen, he would no longer be in pain, and Eddis would eventually learn to cope - not to mention the outrage of the Eddisians when they heard that the Queen of Attolia had killed their thief. She also knew that, faced with life as a worthless cripple, Gen would do exactly what he did: namely, descend into depression.
So now you're not looking at getting rid of a threat versus letting it continue.
You're looking at giving your enemy a noble martyr to rally behind versus making her watch a loved one suffer day by day. Either way you neutralize the threat, but it's harder to get the public to back a war over a hand than a war over a life. And if you want to hurt someone, you want to hurt them for as long as possible - in this case, for the remainder of Gen's life and possibly longer.
Am I making sense here?

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Well, said. Truth is, the amputation was devastating for Gen in that he not only lost his hand but his purpose in life. Or so it seems... Till he remembers that a thief's greatest weapon is his mind. At first, I think he feels like he might as well be dead as be a useless one-handed thief.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

yup!

[missmoonbeam.livejournal.com]

true, only i guess she underestimated how much the eddisians loved gen. they were willing to fight a war over his hand after all.

[claire-mirkwood.livejournal.com]

Precisely.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

LJ-Cut instructions. (http://www.livejournal.com/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=75)

Mostly what Claire said, but I think guilt is another reason when it comes to Helen. She's the one who sent him there even when he told her it wouldn't be a great idea. She'll have to live with that for the rest of her life.

[claire-mirkwood.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I hadn't thought of that. Good point!

[missmoonbeam.livejournal.com]

thanks for the lj-cut instructions :D

wouldnt eddis have been just as guilty or even more if he had actually died?

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Your welcome! :)

True, but as everyone else said, if she didn't have to see Gen everyday suffering in front of her, it would not be a guilt she lived with everyday. And would probably be no worse than the guilt she bore from sending her cousins to die in the war.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Other possible "levels":

This could foreshadow the complicated hurting it would cause Eddis when Gen's loyalties transferred from her to Attolia.

Also, did Eddis have any notion of Gen's feelings for Attolia at that point, of his leaving her tokens and such...? Imagine how awful THAT would feel. Knowing Gen loved Attolia, and had been so very hurt by her in return.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Hmm...I don't think she did, but they do argue about her. He does say she's within her right and Eddis says she's not. She might have sensed something was up, I can imagine that Gen would have wanted to tell her too, he did say he dreamed of her only to have Eddis say they've heard him scream.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

I believe she knew he was fascinated with her but didn't understand why. (Of course, that's probably at least partially true for Gen himself, as well.)

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

THAT ICON. I LOVE IT.

I definitely don't think she knew. Even toward the end of QoA, when she told him they could have a treaty without the marriage and he refused, I don't think she fully realized.

[missmoonbeam.livejournal.com]

i think gen would have told her he loved attolia when he revealed his plans for ephrata. otherwise, he wouldnt have been able to convince eddis to let him do it. most people would be considered insane if they wanted to marry the person who maimed them. the only way for gen to convince eddis would be to tell her the truth, otherwise eddis might have thought, like attolia later, that it was for revenge and she wouldnt have agreed to let him go ahead with the marriage

[keestone.livejournal.com]

In addition to what everyone else has said, there's also the question of a clean death vs. torture that he might well not have survived. And, at least in Gen's mind, the question of being whole in the afterlife.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

I would agree with you---living is better than dead---but if she had killed Gen, Eddis would have mourned and moved on. Sending him home handless, however, forces her to watch him struggle through his pain, both physical and emotional, for years afterward as he tries to continue with his life, without the ability he really needs to be the Thief anymore. It's just a testament to Gen's adaptability and endurance that he managed to overcome the loss of his hand and yet still be the Thief he needed to be, despite the new handicap. Even if it was only long enough to destroy Sounis's navy, kidnap Attolia, make himself her country's king :)

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Ooh, everyone made some really good points. I would only add that cutting off his hand could well have led to a long, drawn-out, unpleasant death from infection or gangrene.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

A long, drawn-out, unpleasant death that Eddis would be forced to watch and try to fight. Hence the, "Get him back to Eddis before he dies".

[keestone.livejournal.com]

I always thought that was interesting in that she was willing to do so much damage but so angry when he wasn't given proper medical attention afterwards, and she didn't want his death on her hands even if she caused his death.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

And how ironic that it was the dogbites that almost did him in, rather than the chopchop.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Yes. I mean, what was that? Initially it looked like she wanted him to live and be a constant haunting presence.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Good point!

[missmoonbeam.livejournal.com]

but didnt she say she didnt want him dead? when she found the dog bites had infected? and why was she in such a hurry to have him sent home when she realized he might not survive?

[missmoonbeam.livejournal.com]

aaaaand the answer to that is right below. sorry :D

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with what everyone has already said.

I just want to add my two cents. I think these lines are a couple of those in the book that reflect one of the characters' opinion at that certain time; it's not necessarily a fact. And I say this, because after rereading, I've caught quotations from later scenes where the same character would contradict him or herself. Like when Eugenides was asking for permission to leave for ten days, and we see Eddis say, "But I'm forcing myself to be honest. She has not indulged in atrocities for personal pleasure. Or for personal revenge. She has used them as deterrents to defend her throne."

So, all I'm assuming is that if this part is true, then what she said earlier on must have been just momentary. And at that time, Eddis felt really hurt and that what Attolia did was more of an attack to her personally.

And I might have to reread the first part of the book (since it's usually too painful for me to really pay attention), but I always got the impression that the reason Attolia did not send Eugenides off to die was because she was afraid of offending the gods. I mean, there was Nahuseresh who had suggested she avoid showing mercy, but Nahuseresh or not, Attolia would have chosen what was better for her politically. She had an inkling that Eugenides would still pose a danger even without one hand, and yet she chose this method. Regardless of Nahuseresh's opinion, she would have still hung him if she thought it was best. But she didn't, because she's been warned. And I thought that was also why she didn't want him to die.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I wonder if she was too angry to realize that Nahuseresh was provoking a civil war?

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Hm, that's an interesting thought. It was true that Ornon had her pretty angry, so it's reasonable. And not only a civil war, but also an all out war between neighbouring countries, which turned out to be a lot more damaging. ^__^

[missmoonbeam.livejournal.com]

she said she cared very little for the opinion of any god and that she believed, but chose not to worship. i think she really meant that (right until the end, when she asked to have eugenides back), which is why i think its unlikely that she was worried about offending the gods.

and i also think she didnt act in a way that was best for her politically. eddis sent a message that she accepted attolia's right to hang gen, so if she had followed that course, she could have avoided the war - being the astute strategist that she is, she would have known that. i've thought over why she would choose to leave him alive because i think deep down she knew alive, he would always be a threat - which is why she kept asking about news of him from relius later (and also for other reasons). the part where she goes to ask gen what he can steal with one hand seems more like shes trying to reassure herself than anything else.

so the reason that i can come up with is that she really let anger and resentment (towards eddis and also gen because he's unlike anyone else she knows, that is, not trying to flatter her, not looking for opportunities, etc) cloud her judgment for once

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. Hmm... so why does she ask Gen if she has offended the gods after she cut his hand off? I thought it was because to make sure she didn't cross the line, but after what you said, I'm not so sure.

I thought that her anger led her to decide to hang Gen, but only after Nahuseresh's intervention did she change her mind. Or are you saying that after rethinking his punishment, she was still angry, and chose a punishment that was more damaging than death itself?

[missmoonbeam.livejournal.com]

i thought that "did i offend the gods" line was a kind of taunt.

yeah, i get confused about that part myself... i think i've figured it out and when i try to think about it again, i cant arrange the thoughts properly in my head :-/. maybe someone else will have a coherent answer :}

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Oh okay. There was a theory around that says that when Eugenides answered, "No Your Majesty", it wasn't actually the boy thief, but the god. So... it made me wonder why Attolia would care, or why the god would actually answer her.

Lol, yeah. Some of these things are just so confusing to think about. I haven't done many rereads of QoA, so I can't come up with a very good answer. =(

[mycenaeth.livejournal.com]

I hadn't heard this before... very interesting!

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

I think her anger led her to make a hasty decision, and Nahuseresh definitely slowed her down enough to think through her decision and for whatever reason (jealousy, mostly) decide to maim instead of kill.

It's funny that although she was slowed down to think about it, she still made a decision that was actually tactically less sound and more swayed by her emotions. I guess all it shows is that her emotions ran high around this issue?

Confusing if you try and parse it, I agree.

[missmoonbeam.livejournal.com]

i think that was precisely what i meant to say and couldnt :)

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I think Attolia was very careful not to offend the gods, since she had been warned by Moira herself. Surely she had to believe in them and not want to risk offending them. Maybe by sending Gen back "before he dies" she could have blamed it on the Eddisians if he did end up dying. Just a thought.