In QoA...

[annerooo.livejournal.com]

Before Gen planned to marry Irene, do you think he already knew that she loved him too?

No matter how much Gen Ioved Irene, I don''t think he'd want to marry someone who doesn't love him back. 

Thoughts?

Comments

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

Hi!

No, I don't think Gen knew that that Irene loved him too. Actually, I don't think that Irene even knew that she loved him. However, I do think that Gen knew that if only someone loved her for herself, for Irene, a lonely girl dancing under orange trees with "sisters and friends that existed only in her imagination," then there was a chance that she would love him too.

I think that there was a point when Gen doubted if she would truly love him, which is why the first thing out of his mouth after the incident with the altar was "Do you love me?"

Good question, I'm looking forward to some great discussion!

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

And I can totally imagine an unwritten scene in which Gen dances by himself on the rooftop, remembers Irene under the orange trees, and thinks, "We really ought to do this together sometime..."

XD

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

Awwww...how sweet!

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Daaah! Plot bunny! Mind if I steal that? I want to write the orange tree scene through Gen's eyes and that would be the perfect ending. *puppy eyes* I will credit you!

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

No matter how much Gen Ioved Irene, I don''t think he'd want to marry someone who doesn't love him back.

That might be true for his personal feelings, but I think with the political situation as it is at that point in QoA, he's going to marry Irene no matter what and hope that she does love him eventually.

[(Anonymous)]

No way! Eddis told both Attolia and Gen that they could treaty without a marriage. He wanted to marry her because he loved her and he said he couldn't leave her all alone.

[(Anonymous)]

That's true, but the reality--I would argue, anyway--as both he and Eddis are aware, is that a treaty with the marriage will be more unpopular with the Attolians but harder to break. I'm not saying at all that Gen doesn't love Irene and hope that he will love him in return, but that the marriage is really necessary on both the personal and political levels. Also, I think he sees the political threat as the only chance he has to get her.

-EJ

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I think he was pretty desperate at that point to stop the war. He came up with this crazy idea, and hoped desperately she might love him someday. But I don't he knew she loved him. I think he thought he was going into a possibly disastrous marriage but he didn't care any more because he loved her and the war had to end.

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

I think that Gen knew he loved her, and he truly felt that she was going to hurt herself if she continued on the path she was on, and he wanted to save her from herself and the person she had become. I think he guessed that if he stayed and loved her long enough, she would come to love him as well, because he had helped her so much. I think that Gen took advantage of the war and Attolia's situation with her barons to make Irene marry him. He knew that she wouldn't accept him on her own, but to save Attolia she would, and so he chose that moment to "propose" to her. (He also knew that if it really came down to it, Helen and Irene could have probably worked something out without the marriage)

So I think it was a fortunate moment for Gen to propose, but I think he would have done it anyway.

[lylassandra.livejournal.com]

I think he was planning on marrying her first, to stop the war, and stealing her heart second.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I agree that he didn't know if she loved him, and probably thought that she did NOT love him--maybe even hated him. But, he thought that if he declared his love she might start thinking about it, and see him in a different light. That, if he could not only forgive her, but love her, she could see a potential way out of her prison/closed-in walls.

I also think he proposed in that way very strategically--to throw her off balance and try to take away any advantage she might have after he kidnapped her. And it worked. She was flustered by him, and immediately began thinking how she could adapt to a forced marriage and make it work in her favor.

[diadactic.livejournal.com]

No WAY.
He WORSHIPS her. When you are worshiping somebody, it is hard to even conceive of them loving you. And also sort of beside the point.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Very, very good point!

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

I see what you mean about Gen worshipping Attolia, but I also think that Gen had a huge amount of sympathy and compassion for her, something that he wouldn't have if he only worshipped her. I think maybe he alternated between being in complete awe of her and pitying her to the point of wanting to save her from herself.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Hm ... I really agree with what you guys are saying. It makes me feel even sorrier for Gen at about the point when he decides to try and marry her -- although it might seem more natural to pity the person who's being forced into the marriage. But still, he has this love for her that he's sure is hopeless, mixed up with so much fear and other angsty things ... and he's prepared to basically spend the rest of his life saving her from herself, which may go unappreciated if she doesn't love hime. That's very, very amazing and brave.

[annerooo.livejournal.com]

You guys are awesome! Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I've been thinking more about it since I posted this. I thought that maybe Gen didn't really know that Irene loved her then. Though the thought that he did it for Eddis escaped me. I thought maybe he was merely taking advantage of the situation of Eddis. =.= Clearly, I'm not thinking the events in the books thoroughly.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Heh. Believe me, until I found Sounis *huggles ALL of Sounis* I missed about 2/3 of all the details and depth and hidden implications and insinuations, insights, and general genius that is the Queen's Thief Series .
So thanks for bringing up another good discussion question! And welcome? Er, unless you've been here all along and I'm just being my usual forgetful self.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

Welcome!

Yes to what everyone else said but I just wanted to add that I think guilt was a major motivator for Gen too. He sets the beginning of his plan into motion the day after his conversation with the Magus where he accuses Sounis of shedding a lot of blood wanting a woman he can't have. Then he says something like, "I suppose I should sympathize" (Sorry-don't have time to look it up, am squeezing this in before starting my kids' dinner.) Gen doesn't only feel the war is his fault because he got his hand chopped off. I think he feels responsible for pushing Irene with the gifts and notes he was leaving her.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

"I suppose I should sympathize"

YES. I didn't particularly notice that line the first time around, but on re-reading, it hit me like a ton af bricks that Gen meant that he, too, was causing a lot of bloodshed wanting a woman he couldn't have.

[annerooo.livejournal.com]

"I suppose I should sympathize"

I think I missed that one too. Good point though.

ANOTHER QUESTION: Why do you think Gen gave Irene those gifts and notes? Because he has crush on her or simply to provoke her? And what do you think those notes say?

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

Interesting question. I think he did not think she loved him (as many have already stated) but I do think he's well aware that she is shrewd enough to see him as a good ally. For all his cynicism, he is a relatively hopeful and generous person and I think it would be easy for him to see allies becoming friends becoming lovers.

This puts me in mind of a line in a movie called Playing by Heart. Sean Connery is talking about something his wife told him when they were younger. From memory so not exact, it's about how when someone falls in love with you you then get to fall in love with yourself. Your lover finds and reflects back to you all your best qualities. I wonder if Gen ever thought about this. As in, I see what is best in Attolia and I want her to see it, too. She was getting lost in how she was being forced to live. I think Gen saw himself as someone who could open new doors for her.

[(Anonymous)]

"allies becoming friends becoming lovers." YES! i think he was desperately in love with her, so he was going to take what he could get and hope it became more.

Great question!

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Welcome to Sounis!! XD
My thoughts on this are tl;dr...

I think Gen knew Irene had the *potential* to love him. And he had a strong suspicion that, if he offered her his affection, she would/did return it.

He knew she had potential to love because of seeing her dance by herself in the garden, pretending she had friends.

I think it was this potential he wanted to save. Gen is a master at understanding people and he knew she was losing her heart, as many people up-thread have said eloquently... :) This is brought up again in KoA when Gen tells Relius that Irene cannot sacrifice everything or she will become a heartless queen... a horrible prospect not only for her, but for the three countries.

In terms of what Gen knew, or suspected, about Irene's feelings towards him specifically, well by the time he proposed marriage he knew that she had once wanted his loyal service very badly (in The Thief), that she had been hurt at his refusal, that she was wildly jealous of Eddis for "having" him, and that her actions in cutting off his hand had been partly because of that jealousy. He knew that her emotions ran high where he was concerned. That's not the same as love, of course... but it makes his gamble a little less crazy. It suggests that she wants something from him... (whether that wanting is purely violent or is something heartfelt underneath is the question).

And *right* before he proposed (on the boat), he learned that she had been unable to prevent herself from listening outside his cell after she cut his hand off --indicating that she likely felt empathy and regret (she tells him those things in a very cold way, but I'm thinking he can guess the feelings of regret that has been eating away at her --what else would prompt her to divulge those memories in that moment?).

I think Gen knew the only thing that *might* stop Attolia's destructive course would be an offer of love... and more than that, an opportunity for her to love someone. The offer of marriage was a calculated gamble to see how she would react and whether he was right. We don't know what the Eddisians would have done had she reacted differently, but I'm really not convinced that Gen would have thrown his life away on an unrequited love marriage --certainly not on a woman who he could not save (i.e. who could no longer love back). The idea that others have suggested of a one-sided marriage or one where she might come to love him in time... it just does not sit right with me at all. I think Gen knows that there is either love (that she herself does not yet know about) already hiding under her jealousy and bitterness, or there isn't. If Gen had found that there was no love under there, then perhaps the Eddisians would have dethroned her and installed someone else as their puppet. They would not want a ruler who was heartless.

Because if she didn't love him, then he can't save her. He doesn't save her by loving her, but by giving her the opportunity to love him. She has to feel love herself, in order to be saved from her numbness: she can't be a just a passive recipient.

Gen is very surprised when Attolia wears his earrings at Ephrata, but I believe that is because by that point he believes that she's already given him a negative answer to his test. Attolia's actions at the bottom of the cliff are inconclusive, but her actions after the Mede attack look very much like she will never return his affections and actually hates him. He doesn't know that the results of his test are still on their way! So his surprise in that moment is not evidence of his original expectations. He *did* originally expect and hope that she loved him. And the earrings confirm it for him, enough that by the time they next meet, in the room in Ephrata, he knows to jibe her with remarks about serving maids designed to make her jealous enough to betray her feelings! XD

[(Anonymous)]

i think he knew how irene felt about him (all those things you mentioned in earlier paragraphs) and he was just trying to get HER to realize it. when her reaction to the proposal was cold, he wasn't elated because at that point he hadn't reached his goal of making her realize she could care about him. When the Medeans showed up I think he thought that the Mede was going to influence her again so that Gen would be killed/maimed before he could finish making her realize her feelings (he was scared the Ambassador was going to foil his plans, essentially). Remember, even after the surrender to the Medean army, he was still working on her. In shackles, he whispered the bit about "shadow queen to puppet queen in a day" in her ear to remind her that she didn't really want the Mede. Yet he still got dragged away and it seems like the Mede had won. I think THAT'S why he was so surprised when she wore the earrings at Ephrata: he'd given up hope. BUT what he'd whispered in her ear worked, along with the discovery that the Mede killed two of her loyal barons. She realized that the act with the Mede had come to an end and that she'd need Eddis' help to get his army out. And underneath all that, I think she had liked it when Gen kissed her ;)

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

I know I'm really late at replying, but...

"Because if she didn't love him, then he can't save her. He doesn't save her by loving her, but by giving her the opportunity to love him. She has to feel love herself, in order to be saved from her numbness: she can't be a just a passive recipient."

I love this interpretation.