Who saved whom?

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

It's been awfully slow around here lately! To rectify that situation, I thought I'd post a little discussion question:

In A CoK  Helen says: "If he has saved Attolia, then she has saved him as well, and I've told her as much"

I bet we could all come up with a million ways in which Gen has saved Irene, so here's the discussion question:

In what ways do you think Irene has saved Gen?

Alrighty everyone, have at it!

*loves discussion questions*

Comments

[earthstar-moon.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm saying this right, but here goes. I would say Irene gave Gen motivation and reason to get out of his depression. Sure, he first got out of when when he realized he needed to stop the war, but once that goal was complete who's to say he wouldn't go back to being depressed about his hand again.

Irene also gave Gen an outlet for that, and someone to ensure he doesn't go back to that. And as Irene's husband, Gen now has other things to focus on besides himself, so again more motivation.

Also, let's face it, would any other girl be able to put up with Gen's antics besides Irene? XD If Irene didn't marry him, it's hard to say who else would have.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

That's a great theory...I was just thinking that I had always assumed that Irene, like you said, gave Gen a purpose to move forward. Just before I posted this question, I remembered that he had already pulled himself out of his depression to steal the Magus. But I think you're right in that he needed something or someone to keep him from returning to his depression once that goal was accomplished.

[purplefrog26.livejournal.com]

I think that he needs someone who is complicated like Irene so that he doesn't get bored in the relationship. They will both grow through dealing with the friction between them.

I think he needs her to keep him honest as well. When you are smart enough to get away with stuff the way he is you need someone that will call you on your shenanigans.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

I think he needs her to keep him honest as well. When you are smart enough to get away with stuff the way he is you need someone that will call you on your shenanigans.

I love that theory! I never thought what Gen could do without anyone keeping him in check...I love Helen and all, but she's spread a little thin to be always keeping an eye on Gen. However Irene will keep him in check because he is her husband rather than one of many cousins. Great thinking!

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Well, she saved him from the Medes.

But no, really, I think she saved him from having to watch his legacy as the Thief fade away.

It's true that he was still just as amazing after he lost his hand, but I think the gods were right in that Eddis really needs to join the wider world (the volcano only makes it more necessary) and in my mind they can't really keep the tradition of the Thief if they do that for practical reasons. I think the loyalty of the Thief is tied innately to Eddis's isolation in the mountains. If they moved to Sounis and Gen hadn't gone to Attolia, I think that the Thief (if not Gen, then one of his successors) would have run the risk of becoming just another spy who could be turned against his employers, the way Sounis's and Attolia's can be. It's like what Attolia said: "...if there were an Attolian Thief, he’d be more threat to her than aid." So Gen is spared from having to watch that happen, by moving himself and his Thiefliness to Attolia instead, leaving basically no one in Eddis to carry on the tradition.

And besides that, what would Gen have done in Eddis even if he didn't try to teach anyone to be Thief after him? I think he would have faded too, that the combination of his lost hand and Eddis's desire not to put him in any more danger would have meant that he would have become less and less involved in politics over time, and more of a recluse. It's the kind of thing that would be in-character of him, I think.

As Attolia's king, on the other hand, he's forced back into the thick of things, and his decisions still affect thousands of people, which, as Relius says in KoA, is a good thing. "But there are other words for privacy and independence. They are isolation and loneliness. Drive him out. Whether he wants to or not, he belongs in the open. The world needs to see what a king he is." Attolia has given Gen the opportunity to use his skills in a way that helps a large number of people, indefinitely into the future, which I don't think he would ever have sought out deliberately on his own.

And I rambled a bit more than I was meaning to, there.

[heiros-acumen.livejournal.com]

*use his skill in a way that helps a large number of people*

I really think that Gen is motivated by improving the world-that's why the gods picked him, that's why he hates being a killer, why he loves philosophy, why he became a thief even, because he wants to make the world a better place. And it's why he loves Irene, because she has given up everything-including her humanity- to keep Attolia peaceful.

He thinks she's beautiful on the outside and in her soul.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

As Attolia's king, on the other hand, he's forced back into the thick of things, and his decisions still affect thousands of people, which, as Relius says in KoA, is a good thing. "But there are other words for privacy and independence. They are isolation and loneliness. Drive him out. Whether he wants to or not, he belongs in the open. The world needs to see what a king he is." Attolia has given Gen the opportunity to use his skills in a way that helps a large number of people, indefinitely into the future, which I don't think he would ever have sought out deliberately on his own.

That's exactly what I came to quote. Attolia has dragged him out of his library bedroom in Eddis from the very beginning of the series -- first it was what the country itself had in it, and later it was the queen.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I agree with Drash. Irene gave him a new purpose in life. Without his hand, he'd couldn't be the thief he was. I know he stole the Magus, but he did that with a group and soldiers and not in the same subterfuge way he was used to to. Blowing up a navy isn't exactly subtle, is it? I feel that the main purpose of the Thief was intelligence and not exactly intrigue, though they did engage in intrigue and assassination. They also have a responsibility in keeping the ruler of Eddis in line.

Without his hand, Gen was no longer a super-spy, so...

He became the King of Attolia! Without Irene Gen wouldn't have had the motivation to come out into the limelight. He would have stayed in the shadows and sulked and withered. His love for her, and his desire to save/help her is the current driving force in his life. Not to say, that they're aren't other driving forces and many other people he wishes to protect.

Simply put, it's not quite Irene that saved him, it's his love for her, and the new direction her love has given him. I also think her affection and trust has been therapeutic to his tortured soul. I disagree with the assumption that their relationship is unhealthy in that sense. An unhealthy relationship is defined with by an inability to trust the other person, not accepting who each person truly is, as well as a noticeable desire to hurt and harm one another. Thus the term toxic. Gen and Irene have an unusual, complex, often issue-riddled relationship, but they're also on the fast-track to a healthy, loving relationship.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

I have never felt that Gen nand Irene have an unhealthy relationship. I thin most of the time, their relationshipi is the healthiest thing they've got.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Hmm... you guys are wise.

So, my first thought was that she never would have had the chance to save him if she hadn't nearly destroyed him in the first place. But maybe it's just that the main way he's saved her is more obvious than the ways she's saved him. The ones that I can think of, that have mostly been mentioned at least partway, are...

The fact that she loves him and believes him, saving him from most of his fear and depression and allowing him to save her.

Continuing to be there for him, being "therapeutic to his tortured soul," like Lady Jane said. Frankly, she's resposible for most of the torture his soul has gone through, although some of it's probably from his not-too-happy childhood, killing the soldier in The Thief, etc. And while their relationship is a refuge from everything he has to do as king, she also saves him by pushing him out into the open, as Drashizu said. I think that last way is the one that Helen references in the quote. Although she'd never have the chance to do that if she hadn't cut off his hand... so did that save him, too, in a way?

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Without Irene, I think Gen would have crashed and burned long before now. He's one of those hotheads who takes incredible risks without ever thinking of his own safety. Not that he will necessarily stop doing that, but Irene reins him in at times and forces him to be a little more careful. Maybe his stupid plans won't be nearly so stupid with Irene to contend with.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

Thats a good point too: If Gen had never married Irene, he would have felt like he had nothing to lose, and therefore been downright reckless.

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree. Even if there was a different ruler in Attolia, the country had always had impatient and rebellious barons. I think there may have been a good chance that the ruler would just have killed Gen if he was caught snooping about.

But Attolia, being who she is, chose instead to have his hand cut off.

So, Attolia saves Gen in a literal way too.