Nationality?

[madclairvoyant.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about the nationality of the characters. Actually, out of the three countries, I always thought that the Attolians were the most Grecian, especially because of the pale skin and dark hair. The olive complexion that we often associate with the mediterranean region is probably from prolonged exposure to the sun, but the royals, especially the females, would not have been allowed to wander out in the open, much the way Athenian women were kept within the compound of their homes since dark skin indicates being of a lower caste because it means that one has been working. (And heaven forbid that, for a reason.) So actually, nobility and royalty probably had light coloured skin, like Irene. On the other hand, I thought that the Eddisians were native to the extent that they were more polynesian than greek, especially because they were emphasised to be native, and that they had darker skin. It would also explain why people of the other countries look down on them; there is this innate prejudice against polynesians and aboriginals that makes itself evident through how they were hunted down like game by many. As for the invaders of Sounis, I thought them to be either Anglo-Saxon, or Gaellic, because they strike me as slightly different from the other two, not in the least because they have blond hair, like Sophos, while Attolians and Eddisians have dark hair. Maybe that is why the three countries have so much bloody history between them; racial prejudice is rampant, and it might be possible if it appears in a fantasy work. Thoughts?

P.S. I know I am a tad bit more than obsessive. I will try to stop.

Comments

[purplecat]

It must be said I've always assumed that Attolia, Eddis and Sounis were all analogues for the warring greek city states of antiquity without it specifically being possible to identify them as Athenian, Spartan etc., with the conflict between the old and the new gods being an outshoot of something like the Roman occupation of Greece. The Mede seem to be pretty clearly a Persian analogue from the name.

Nothing about Sounis strikes me as particularly anglo-saxon (except maybe the hair colour), let alone Gaellic.

[madclairvoyant.livejournal.com]

I thought that the invaders were roman, but then for one, the appearance does not seem to fit, and for the other, the roman gods were essentially the same entities as the greek ones, but in a more disciplined from, like they thought that the original was not good enough. On the other hand, the invaders' gods seem to be entirely different from the old Eddis' ones.

The people of Sounis always made me think that they were different from the other two countries, and somehow, I always assigned anglo-saxon characteristics to them. That is probably my erroneous assumption though. And nowhere in the books did they mention that the invaders for both countries were the same, except that both did not penetrate the mountains of Eddis. What I thought is that their cultures are so vastly different that they have a lot of friction between each other simply from communicating.

The Medean empire does seem like the on in out world, named after the witch Medea, who was a princess that married Jason, and cruelly tore her own brother to pieces to distract her father while they were making their escape, yet was scorned by him and left behind for another princess. And I digress.

[purplecat]

Hmm... I'm not an expert, but I always thought the similarities between some of the Greek and Roman gods was largely attributable to the Roman interest in assimilating client theologies into their own, rather than them being the same gods with different names right from the outset.

My assumption has definitely always been that the setting is supposed to be Mediterranean-like, only with the culture of antiquity allowed to survive forward to late medieval/early modern times in a far more intact form than it did in our world. I think we are supposed to assume they have more in common with each other than they do with outsiders.

Medea also murdered her own children as I recall, and managed to successfully dispose of both Jason and the new princess. But I believe her portrayal, largely as a villainess, in the western mediterranean is counter-balanced by a more sympathetic mythology around her in the eastern mediterranean.

[madclairvoyant.livejournal.com]

I do think that they are the same gods because often, instead of being two different deities who either share traits or shoulder the same responsibilities, they were often actually referred to as the same being, merely slightly altered.

Yes. Medea is horrible; a fitting ancestor for the ambassadors if they are all really as bad as those we have seen.

[creative-lefty2.livejournal.com]

The Medes were real. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes.

If we are equating these countries with things in our world, you have to remember the German tribes. They had their own belief systems and spent a long time trying to invade, co-exist, and rule the Roman empire. So, maybe the invaders in Sounis and Attolia were more similar to the German tribes and that is why their religion is different.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Yes! *goes to look up German tribes*
That would fit with the general direction of our Vikingish guesses too.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

One thing that suggests the invaders may not have been Roman is that as far as I remember, the Romans were pretty tolerant of people keeping their own religions. I mean, they'd bring their religion to you, but you were welcome to keep yours too, or better yet just incorporate your gods into the Roman pantheon. But this doesn't seem to have been what happened in the SEA lowlands, where the invaders' gods supplanted the original pantheon entirely.

Re Romans I believe it was one of their ways of keeping their empire together. People are generally less likely to get angry at being ruled when you don't bother them over the details. Why give people reasons to rebel against you?

Polytheistic religions tended to be less worried about the possible existence of other gods, imo. If you already believe in a whole wackload, you aren't going to be as threatened by a few more. Most of all I don't think they had that concept of "I am the one true god and you will worship me and only me" that seems to have been a hallmark of the Judeo-Christian line of thinking. At least, I always thought the bible is SO insistent on that tenet of the religion, it must mean that was a point that really set those early monotheistics apart from the polytheistics around them. However that is a complete layman's opinion as I am no expert. Some of you can probably refute or support my claims!

In any event, everyone in SEA seems to behave in a way that is unthreatened by other gods, even if those gods are distinctly in a separate pantheon.

[(Anonymous)]

Not really, some of the roman emperors murdered christian, while another was famous for banning he olympics hecause they were for pagan worship.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Hi Anon. That's true, the Romans did persecute Christians, and once the Empire itself had converted to Christianity it was not friendly to pagans. That happened in the late stages of the Empire when Christianity was gaining a lot of followers quickly and it was quite threatening to the (then-pagan) empire. Perhaps I should have specified that I was mostly thinking about the empire pre-Christianity. That is, when it was a matter of a polytheistic invader taking over other, often polytheistic peoples just like what happened in Sounis and Attolia.

My understanding is that the Romans used religion as it suited their political purposes, and a lot of the time, especially in the early and middle stages of the empire, that meant absorbing other "pagan" gods into their own pantheon, rather than replacing them entirely. So as they conquered different groups, you'd have the emergence of different Roman cults based on those groups' gods --gods that were originally non-Roman --rather than the disappearance of those gods and the sole worship of Roman gods. For instance there were cults around the Egyptian goddess Isis and the Mithras cult came from the name of a Persian god. And in those local places where those gods had been worshipped, I believe they still would have been visible in some form.

To be sure, they attacked those groups they saw to be a threat. But my point is, while they themselves were polytheistic, they didn't seem to see the religions of a lot of the other polytheistic groups they took over as particularly threatening. Under these circumstances, in our little peninsula of S/E/A, Hephestia and Eugenides and all the others might have become a cult within the invaders religion, rather than be replaced outright. They might have still been worshipped, though in a slightly different form.

But that doesn't seem to have been the case.

[sandtree.livejournal.com]

A few years ago I dressed up as Attolia for Halloween. It was really easy because I'm already tall and have dark hair, but I thought my skin was too light, so I put bronzer and stuff on. Then a while later I was reading the books again and there's that line that says her skin was so fair it was almost translucent. I was like... *headdesk*.

[madclairvoyant.livejournal.com]

Irene the vampire. She might even sparkle! Okay, that was a very lame joke. At least she has brains.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

haha! I'd forgotten about that description of her, too. I guess that's something she and I have in common! I'm SO pale. I was born with red hair which darkened to brown. Rogue Scots-Irish genes, I guess. And I don't tan, at all. Just burn. I guess I was born in the wrong century. No ballads about "fair beauty" and perceived nobility for me. ;) Just... "Gosh, you're blinding me in the sun, girl! Don't you ever go outside?"

[sandtree.livejournal.com]

I was born with black hair which turned dark brown. I've always been pale. I don't tan, either... but I also don't burn. Not that I've never had a sunburn, but it seems to take a lot.

[booksrgood4u.livejournal.com]

I don't tan *or* burn. I just am. Pale. I suppose that I might be like Attolia in that way....hmmmmm...

[sandtree.livejournal.com]

You must be of my species! ;)

[madclairvoyant.livejournal.com]

I was born pale too, with black hair. My friends always complain that I always seem to glow in class photos, nd the dark hair making it creepier.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

I have always thought of Sounis, Attolia, and Eddis as similar to Greece, Macedonia, and Bulgaria, which are quite similar in certain aspects including culture and ethnic heritage, but which historically have not necessarily gotten along. Or Ukraine and Russia--same deal, but I think the textual evidence for Byzantine-ish places is better.

I will note that it's pretty clear from the book that they're not in ancient Greece--pocket watches, glass windows, printed books, guns, plus Megan's comments.

I don't have a theory about the invaders, other than the fact that they're bringing a new religion and so could be some analogue of the eastern Roman empire--ie what we would call Byzantine.

[(Anonymous)]

But the byzantine is like the eastern part of the roman empire that survived after it fell. So technically it should have been practicing the old greek religion.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Anon, I don't quite follow your comment, sorry! Do you mean that the Byzantines should have been practicing the old Greek religion?

[(Anonymous)]

I read that the Byzantine was the Greek half of the empire left; therefore they practice the old greek way. I might be wrong though.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

No, they were Christian, specifically Orthodox (though Byzantium was founded before the Schism of 1054, so at the time just Christian; later they would have been Eastern Orthodox as opposed to Catholic.)

[ladyadeone.livejournal.com]

Byzantium was a Christian empire - early Eastern Orthodox. :) Technically, that would be a monotheistic religion, but the native Sounisians might be including the saints as gods, since they were prayed to, as well.
Interesting idea!

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Right--being Orthodox myself, I find that overlap fascinating! But I think that Sounis/Eddis/Attolia is far from a 1:1 analogy for Byzantium, especially where religion is concerned. Still neat to think about, though.

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

It's always seemed pretty Greek-ish/Byzantine-ish across the board, and it seems like there's a core common culture that has developed differently in the three countries, with Sounis and Attolia more similar to each other than to Eddis. The Eddisians might be a bit Arcadian, insofar as they are mountainous, hardy, and a bit primitive (the stereotype in antiquity was that the Arcadians still ate acorns), and some aspects of Attolia (e.g. the army) seem a bit more Roman than Greek. Sounis always strikes me as a bit Macedonian.

One thing that's interesting to me is the way that a lot of incidents and behaviors drawn from Roman interference and hegemony in Hellenistic Greece in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE are transposed and attributed to the Medes (i.e. Persians).

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I've always vaguely associated Sounis/Attolia with the Greeks, and the Medes with the up-and-coming Roman empire. But 'Mede' was a real people group, right? Persians/ancient Iranians, I think. So... not sure what to make of that, really. As for Eddis, I always saw them as an older, native people group that retreated into the remote mountain regions over time as new groups settled in. Kind of like the Celts, pushed at last into the far corners of Britain. Then again Megan's comment about their accent being (like? similar to?) Scottish might've contributed to that thought. :) 'Cause it doesn't make a lot of sense, history or geography-wise. As for the prejudice against Eddisians, I don't see it being BECAUSE of their darker skin tone. That kind of racism often stems from evolutionary thinking and as far as I can tell from the series, none of the present cultures follow that philosophy. So the dark skin is not the cause of the prejudice. It's just a means of identifying an Eddisian. The prejudice stems from perceived cultural differences (which will seem less and less different in light of their common enemy the Mede). The fact that Eddis is remote and takes a somewhat isolationist stand in world affairs means the culture hasn't melded/developed along with the others, making it look backward or quaint or just strange to its neighbors. And, the series obviously takes place during a time of great change for all three countries, so there's a lot of 'old & new' and 'us & them' going on.

Interesting discussion! Just my two cents! :)

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, i meant that the darker skin distinguished them from the ohers, and that they were still prejudiced against because of their race; it just amplified the difference.

MadClairvoyant.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

^^ I agree!

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I see those three types of people in the SEA inhabitants too, though maybe not divided in exactly the way you described them. I believe the main distinction made is between the lowlanders (Sounis and Attolia) and Eddis. Sounis and Attolia were both overrun by invaders who came on longships, who traded in open markets by the sea, and whose gods sound somewhat (in our world) Greek (? Could they also be Norse? We hear of cyclops, giants, and a shrew-like wife). Because of the presence of fair hair in some of the population (like Sophos) as well as lighter skin, I associated the invaders with some more northerly people, and because of the reference to longboats I thought of perhaps the Vikings. I think it's definitely the same invaders who took both lowland countries, because Sounis and Attolia have the same religion (different from Eddis's Old religion).

The Eddisians are darker skinned (and presumably haired) because they were never conquered by the invaders, so yes I would see them as being more (genetically) native to the area. And their culture and religion is closer to what the Sounisians and Attolians once also had. Which is why Attolia is comfortable modeling herself off of Hephestia -- because her people did once worship her, those roots are still there.

It reminds me a little of what happened in Britain - the vikings invaded and pushed the native peoples to the fringes of the islands (places like Wales) and as a result certain Viking traits like fair hair are more common in the english lowlands then the more native areas like Wales. Of course, in SEA's case it doesn't look like the native population was driven into the mountains, more that those natives who lived below were assimilated, and those natives who happened to live in the mountains weren't.