Rosemary Sutcliff Allusions

[ladyadeone.livejournal.com]

Hi everybody! I've been kind of a lurker for several years - I made a comment or two here or there but I think this is my first post! Thanks for being such a great fandom, it's been a pleasure lurking among you. ;)

  There have been a couple of brief discussions about MWT's habit of hiding quotes, items, and other allusions to her favorite authors inside her books. I'm particularly interested in her references to Rosemary Sutcliff, another of my favorite authers. Sutcliff "Easter eggs" (if you will) are discussed in this post from 2010 (and possibly in one or two other places). However, I haven't seen anyone mention Sutcliff allusions in TaT, so I wanted to make a post to mention those as well as hopefully corral all other allusions to this author hidden in MWT's work.

  So, without further preamble, here are the ones I'm aware of:

1. The dolphin signet ring in The Thief is probably the most obvious and well-known. Too bad Gen doesn't seem to have kept it.

2. Someone said the moment when Gen pours water on the dead soldier's uniform after that skirmish in the river (again in Thief), to get rid of the dry spot shaped like a leaf, is from a Sutcliff story. I don't think I've seen it though, so can anyone fill in which book that's from?

3. Costis ruminates on the suicide options represented by his fibula pins - a reference to Mark of the Horse Lord in KoA. I think there's a similar moment in another of Sutcliff's books? Minus the actual death though?
EDIT: Found another almost direct quote source in Frontier Wolf: "Two inches in the right place is enough, they teach you". Not minus death though....

4. Thick as Thieves, pg. 161, Costis tells Kamet that their pursuers "skylighted themselves, probably on purpose" on the slope above. This immediately made me think of the careful avoidance of just that mistake in Frontier Wolf (though Sutcliff calls it getting "skylined").

5. TaT pg. 215, Costis sings a "song about about a girl a soldier left behind" while tinning the farmers' pan. In The Eagle of the Ninth, a soldier (also in disguise, by the way) sings about "the girl I kissed at Clusium/Kissed and left at Clusium".

 That's all I've got, notice there's nothing yet for QoA or aCoK. Any additions? Is that last one too tenuous?

Comments

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Hello, and welcome! :)

Great finds, these. I knew the skylining thing rang a bell when I read it, but I didn't make the connection. I've also wondered if we'll see the dolphin ring again before the series ends. I did notice dolphins on the new map... coincidence?! I'm planning to re-read The Eagle of the Ninth and will report back if anything stands out to me in connection with Thick As Thieves (beyond the obvious themes MWT has already cited as inspiration)!

By the way, for the Sutcliff fans hereabouts, she wrote a memoir, called Blue Remembered Hills, that makes for a short but interesting read.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

I want to try reading more Sutcliff. I read eagle of the ninth years ago but never picked up any others. Where do I start??

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

You could follow up Eagle with The Silver Branch and The Lantern Bearers. They're not directly connected, but are sold as the Roman Britain trilogy due to following the same family line through three different periods in Roman-British history. I love Lantern Bearers, though I warn you, Sutcliff's writing doesn't always end on a happy note, so have tissues and chocolate at the ready.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, I gave one of my favorites, "The Mark of the Horse Lord," to a friend, and it devastated her so much she quit reading for a couple of months.

GKChesterton1

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

I'll have to check my library for those... when I feel like I can handle it 😳

[ladyadeone.livejournal.com]

I second the Lantern Bearers recommendation - my favorite!! - but yes do avoid Mark of the Horse Lord unless you're in the mood for a really rough ride.

The Silver Branch is good and probably most comparable (anguish-wise, or lack-thereof in this case) to Eagle. :)

[celebrilomiel.livejournal.com]

Of Sutcliffe's other books, The Silver Branch is the most closely tied to The Eagle of the Ninth since it also features the eagle standard, and it's one of my favorite of her books. There's a wonderfully mordant maiden aunt at the end, and lots of spying and excitement throughout. (It's also one of the few that ends happily, which is probably one reason why I like it so much. Books need happy endings.) My other favorite is Blood Feud (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Feud_(novel)), which is another trekking book like The Eagle and TaT, with a route that covers territory from England and Ireland through Eastern Europe down to Constantinople, and has politics, fighting, friendship, and romance. I liked Bonnie Dundee, too, though it was rather depressing and it seemed like everyone died; it's set in Scotland during the religious-political wars of the 1800s.

[starmy63 (from livejournal.com)]

It's been a few years since I read the Eagle series, but on my reread of TaT this week, the 'shabby little caravel' with a dolphin painted on the side seemed quite familiar, as did the captain. I'm fairly sure it's an allusion to one of Rosemary Sutcliffe's Britain stories.
All I can remember right now is the name Hilarion and some general themes being parallel - the way the armies are set up in RS's books and Attolia, dealing with a career changing injury, going into a foreign country to find a hidden talisman, coming to a better understanding of 'primitive' cultures, the realities being and Freedman (the last two pretty obvious in TaT), etc.

I'm really excited about this thread - the hidden Easter eggs is is one of my favorite things about reading MWT's books now as an adult. The Rosemary Sutcliffe references in particular is one of the things that really clinched my love of the series - wandering through the pages and finding familiar friends, so to speak. Maybe after I finish my current series I'll pull out the Eagle again and see what else I remember our what stands out this time.

[ladyadeone.livejournal.com]

I don't recall any specific mention of a caravel with a dolphin on the side, but I don't think it's in Eagle and I know it's not in The Lantern Bearers. :P If memory serves, there are several ships in Outcast, maybe it's in that one?

Oh, I'd forgotten about Hilarion! Good one!!

The Sutcliff references were a big draw for me initially, too. Glad you like the thread; it's nice to see all these responses because I was worried this might've seemed redundant.

[starmy63 (from livejournal.com)]

I may be getting the boat/character mixed up with another author, but any dolphin references I automatically consider a Rosemary Sutcliffe salute, and I just have a vague memory that there was one of the stories where a character hires a boat or buys a boat from a fisherman or something to get from Point A to Point B and the owner is quite a character, but that's all I can remember, and I know this has happened in multiple books I've read, so I may be totally wrong. A reread is definitely in order.

I also know there is a direct Rosemary Sutcliffe quote from the Roman Britain trilogy in The Queen's Thief series, but I can't remember what it is right now.

[starmy63 (from livejournal.com)]

So I took this challenge too seriously, and read any RS books I own or could find in the library and filled a handful of 3x5 card with crossovers that caught my eye.

So, the boat - I know I've read a similar story with an irascible fisherman and his boat to safety, but it must be from another book or author. I think I was remembering the Dolphin inn from "The Silver Branch" and its role in the undercover operation getting the hunted out of Britain (wonder if Attolia has a similar setup in Medea).

Related quotes:
- "What a liar you are"
- "Go to sleep" - to Esca, Eo9
- "I have never been sure (if I liked him) but I would have followed him into the mouth of Erebos itself." of Carausius

Eo9
- Costis/Aqulia: young, first command, brand of Mithras and ring
- Atollia/Roman army similarities: armor, drills, command structure, attitude toward Gods.
- Costis/Kamet: strong thematic parallels to TaT - bro journey, two cultures meeting and learning trust, slavery, what freedom and being a freedman means, individual value outside of societal position
- Britain/Eddis fighting style: ferocious, causing ongoing problems for Romans (easy to bite off, hard to swallow).
- Aulus the surgeon
- "So": obviously historical, but still similar
- Homesickness
- Uncle Aquila/Magus: farmer turned solider turned scholar, absorbed in history.
- Becoming soldier to buy a farm - obvious in TaT, and references to injuries common to soldiers and destroying those dreams.
- oculist: realities of vision loss, probably similar to Gen's time and hence his fears.
- Aquila trying to find alternative career when injury ends soldiering, decides to be a secretary (like Gen's university plans). Dealing with injury-induced career change
- Hespirades
- Losing the bronze cauldron - losing bronze cooking pot in TaT
- Stealing the Eagle, and the sense of sentience in the Epidaii holy place. Similar feeling in temple below Aracthus in QT
- Hiding in cave of wild animal (TaT)
- Triumphant return- no sense of homecoming for Esca or Kamet. Fainting dramatically upon return.

Silver Branch
- Carausius: Small, non-traditional ascent to throne, sees long-term future for his country, courts poison in his court in order to destroy it
- Senior surgeon throws pitch pot at someone's head
- Royal, wonderful wine
- Emperor's interest in two low-ranking soldiers of many, knowing he can trust them. Reposting them to "the hinterlands" and convincing them it's out of anger in order to protect them.
- Bath houses
- Justin and Flavius like Costis and Aris
- Justin/Sophos: unsure of selves, not violent, fatherly disapproval, effective in an emergency.
- Justin trying to explain his choices to his father - like Costis
- Carausius doesn't look like a king, but is one to follow (not seen the like before)
- "Euge" - possible Eugenides connection?
- "A little man, a very great little man" - I forget why this is here, but probably because it made me laugh and think of Gen
- Flavius: gains men's respect after cannon falls, like Gen fighting guard and showing them what kind of man/king he is.
- Hypocaust sneaking

The Lantern Bearers
Stopped writing things down, but major similarities between Gen/Ambrosius:
- Last hope of the country against invaders
- Overtures to different factions trying to solidify position against invaders, long-term planning toward success
- Thematic undercurrent of what makes a leader, and what makes a leader worth following
- Build, coloring, fighting skills
- Eugenus the physician

Frontier Wolf
Again, thankfully fewer notes:
- So much Costis! Opening scene with Alexios in his quarters trying to write his family, remembering what happened - so much like beginning of KoA.
- Young soldier, early command, losing command through one catastrophic decision
- Command in a foreign culture, gaining respect and uniting men with very different cultural norms and expectations.

Aren't you glad you asked now? ;)

[meltintall3.livejournal.com]

It's not Sutcliff, but did Kamet's observation about wanting a comfortable bed in Koadester remind anyone else of the side-trip to Harfang in The Silver Chair?

[ladyadeone.livejournal.com]

Ooh, no, I didn't catch that moment, but on pg 127 when Kamet said he'd trade a plate of nutcakes for a bath it reminded me of something and I assumed it was Jill thinking of Harfang's hot baths.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I think there's a reference to something from one of the Horatio Hornblower books in ACoK--I'll have to look back and try to remember what book it was from.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Oh! and I just remembered that I came across this a couple of weeks ago when reading The Black Moth by Georgette Heyer. Doesn't this remind you of Gen and Phresine, when he is all, "I'm not a boy!" and "I am getting up!"? I couldn't type it all, so I'm adding links to a couple of pics of the pages.

Sorry, Gen, you ARE a boy. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx7CuBgbWmPxODk1eWZ1ZnFBeHM/view?usp=sharing)
Your threats make me laugh. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx7CuBgbWmPxbU9aT091bUJNSms/view?usp=sharing)

I know Megan likes Heyer, maybe this is a shoutout to her.

[celebrilomiel.livejournal.com]

When Gen enters the hypocaust to hide at the beginning of QoA, it seems distinctly reminiscent of how the main characters hid in the hypocaust in The Silver Branch — there are parallel descriptions of the tight space, the pitch black, and the tramp of feet on the floor above.

[kiscakat.livejournal.com]

There is also the character Aulus (in either Eagle of the Ninth or The Silver Branch - I can't remember which). And, Gen's "So. So. So." in KoA is very similar to the "Sa. Sa. Sa." that is used by RS in these stories.