Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

What an interesting idea to ponder!

I never thought of Eugenides as non-white; rather, I thought of him as dark like Spanish, Italian, or Middle Easterns are dark. More along the lines of swarthy (think Capt'n Jack Sparrow) than non-white.

And I thought the contempt felt by the Attolians was along the lines of the contempt British Aristocracy felt for their Irish counterparts (or, for that matter, the contempt felt by non-Irish Americans when the Irish immigrants hit our shores).

From:

avian-xj.livejournal.com

I've always thought of Gen as rather Italian/Spanish dark as well, and now that you mention it, though I never really noticed before, the cover does make him look too pale. I suppose I've kind of merged the cover image and my own thoughts of Gen in my mind. It's a good thing too because it would be very difficult to change my mental image :P

From:

dannybailey.livejournal.com

Well, there is a lot of ethnic diversity in Harry Potter, did they mention that?

As for the races described in the books, I have to admit that I'm constantly overanalyzing them. Every time I go over the Greek period in Art History I keep trying to piece things in the history and geography to fit in with the books. So far, I haven't decided which explanation fits best. I keep finding contradictory information. That might have something to do with the fact that it *is* fanstasy and I'm looking way too far into it. :)

From:

Sorry, I forgot to respond to this earlier. Yes, they do mention Harry Potter and his multi-ethnic classroom, as well as the "racial purity" issues raised with "mudbloods," etc. However, they also point out that Harry, Ron and Hermione are all white.
It's the kind of thing that doesn't matter in the sense of changing the plot of the book -- but it might well matter to many readers.

From:

To quote the same article: "Indeed, in conversation Turner has said that the images in her head of the Eddisians were 'deeply influenced by the people of the Himalayas.'"
I hadn't heard that before, but that image seemed about right to me. And apparently the Eddisians look enough different from their neighbors that Eugenides has to make up a plausible explanation for his skin in The Thief. No one seems to insult him based on skin color -- they prefer "goatfoot" as a putdown -- but even though it's so seldom mentioned, it must be a constant reminder to the Attolians that a FOREIGNER is ruling their country.

From: (Anonymous)

That is very interesting...

I had always pictured Eugenides as having fairly dark skin...and Irene as having a very light, almost porcelin complexion, and both of them having black hair.

I wonder what sort of beard Eugenides has...he's never described shaving/clean shaven/five o'clock shadowed, etc. in any of the books thus far...

~Feir Dearig

From:

bon-accord.livejournal.com

Probably because he was too young to have one. That is certainly the case in The Thief, and he is referred to as a "beardless boy" in QoA.

From: (Anonymous)

True. But what about KOA?

*pictures Gen with a mustache*

*flees*

~Feir

From:

He carefully shaved and dressed before his official audience with Eddis, when he proposed the Attolia Coup in QoA.

From: (Anonymous)

I always thought of Gen as Greek/Spanish/ looking.

In terms of having very different skin tone than the Attolians - the three countries live less than a week's walking apart - genetically how different would their ethic origins be? I thought it was more of a facial feature thing.

Since they live in the mountains where winter is longer, wouldn't Gen be a bit more pasty looking then the Attolians (the working Attolians, not the Royalty) who have a shorter winter?

From:

kilerkki.livejournal.com

I'd agree with you as having thought of Gen as Mediterranean, but I tended to think that the Attolian aristocracy (and perhaps a large part of the country) was descended from the invaders--who never made it into Eddis. Possibly the invaders were quite a bit lighter-skinned than the natives, and thus Attolians are lighter than Eddisians.

Higher altitudes can mean darker tans, too--I've been sunburned on a cloudy day in Utah (5,000 feet) just as well as on a sunny day in South Carolina (sea-level)!

From:

jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com

completely off-topic

but ICON LOVE LIKE WHOA

*scurries off*

From:

haleysings.livejournal.com

Agree'd! <3 Westley.

From:

*seconds icon love*
*decides to watch Princess Bride tonight instead of balancing her checkbook*

From:

Yeah, I always go back and forth myself about how different they could possibly look, since they're such close neighbors. But you do get these ethnic clusters when a population has been isolated for a while and there hasn't been a lot of intermarriage, so maybe.
(aside: what is a Spanish "look"? Isabella la Catolica was a redhead, they say. And there are a lot of blond Spaniards out there.)

From:

haleysings.livejournal.com

To be honest, I only just recently caught the references to his darker skintone in the books (I'm slow on the uptake sometimes), so my mental image of him isn't very dark. Tan-ish, but....still rather...caucasian looking. Actually, ever since I realized some things about my image of him were wrong he comes out a little muddled looking in my head. XD I like the remark about the Eddisians being similar to "the people of the Himalayas", though, that makes sense in my mind. (Although part of me wants to say "He should look italian!", because one of my favorite actors is Italian.)

Actually! Someone mentioned that the Attolians might be lighter skinned because the invaders married into their people, right? That reminds me...I lived in India for a little while as a kid (less than a year). Waaaay back when, India was taken over by invaders (I want to say they were muslims from the middle east, but I can't remember for sure), and they had lighter skin, if I remember right. I'm not *completely* sure on this, but I think the bloodline of the invaders is more prominant in high-caste hindus than lower-caste--and I do remember my higher caste friends being lighter in color. That might be more because they typically spend more time indoors, rather than simply being genetics, though (in general anyway--it's supposedly illegal in India to descriminate based on the caste system, but the higher castes are still often more favored when it comes to the nicer jobs.)
Anyway, the point of that ramble is, I can see the Attolians being noticibly paler than the Eddisians because of having more of the invader's blood in them.

Also, I do think the version of Eugenides on the KOA cover is a bit pale. It's not horribly so (or as noticibly pale as the version on the Japanese cover of the Thief!) but it could stand to be darkened a bit. Great cover otherwise, though.

From:

willow-41z.livejournal.com

The Aryan invaders were from the steppes of Central Europe. And yes, some historians think the caste system was invented to subjugate the conquered, so the higher castes would have had more Aryan blood than Dravidian.

From:

I do think the illustration of Gen on the cover of KoA is too "white," just as I think Gen looks too young. But I adore it anyway. We really know very little about Gen's looks. He has dark hair (does it ever say "black," or just "dark"?) and dark skin and is short. That's all, isn't it? Like Peggy, I picture him as swarthy, Italian/Spanish/Middle Eastern looking.

There's a bit more description of some other characters. Sounis is blond, and isn't Sophos, too? Or is that just in my mind?

Excellent point about the Eddisians being isolated in their mountains and so possibly more genetically separate. The royal family married within itself enough that they needed people to keep the relationships straight so close relatives didn't wed. Perhaps Attolians and Eddisians hated one another enough that there was little intermarriage to blend the countries' cultures.

I haven't seen the Horn Book article, but I imagine it talks about Ged from the Earthsea books. He is most definitely described as black, and folks were upset when a white actor was cast in the part in a recent movie.

From:

As a matter of fact, Ged is mentioned is the selfsame paragraph! And as the same sort of example -- dark-skinned character, white cover art.

Their point being, how is a young person of color to know from the cover that this book contains the rare fantasy hero who physically resembles him/her?

I agree that in other ways the cover is lovely.

From:

aged-crone.livejournal.com

I thought I remembered reading that Ged was, according to LeGuin, more American Indian; it was whatsit (quick search - it's been years since last I read the books) Vetch who was black. None of which I noticed when I read the books. Which apparently sends LeGuin into a snit, because she rants that only white people have the luxury of ignoring race in books.

But then, she thinks Tehanu is the crowning glory of the series, and I didn't much like it.

In looking up Vetch's name I discovered that LeGuin's mother was Theodora Kroeber, who wrote the book about Ishi. I didn't know that!

Leslie

From:

You are right, Leslie. I remembered reading an interesting interview with Le Guin. Here is a portion of it. It's from The Guardian, but I was too lazy to check the date:

Q: My brothers and I felt 'included' when we read the Earthsea books. We were black children growing up in Britain in the 1970s and we perceived very early on that books like Lord of the Rings or Dune (as much as we loved them) didn't really 'include' us - indeed, they felt exclusive. You describe Ged as being dark-skinned, and my brothers and I have argued for years over whether he was black or not.

UKL: I see Ged as dark brownish-red, and all the other people in the book (except the Kargs and Serret) as brown or brown-red, to very dark or black (Vetch). In other words, in the Archipelago "people of color" are the norm, white people are an anomaly. Vice versa on the Kargish islands. That much is pretty clear in the books. How dark you want Ged to be is pretty much up to you! Why not? Readers rule, OK? But what drives me up the wall is cover illustrators - trying to get them not to make everybody white, white, white. Did you ever see the very first English edition of A Wizard of Earthsea? It was a Puffin paperback, I think. I was really excited about it - I think it was my first English publication - until I saw it. The Ged on the cover was this marshmallow-colored guy drooping like a lily in a sort of nightgown. Oh Lord! I think most white people have failed to notice that most of the people in most of my SF and fantasy are not white people. So. What else is new?

From:

emmaco.livejournal.com

I think that casting decision was dodgy. I read something by the director saying it was just a coincidence that the actor was white, but really, it wouldn't kill them to have a black male actor play the hero, would it? Not that I've actually seen the adaptation but stil...

From:

queenofattolia.livejournal.com

Interesting. I think there's white and then there's white - I've known light-skinned, blue-or-green-eyed Arabs, Persians and Indians, so imagining Eugenides as someone like the indeterminate-looking Scots actor James McAvoy was almost inevitable for me (I think his turn as the exotic Leto in Children of Dune is mostly responsible for this).

I think there's some mention of Eugenides' dark complexion in either QoA or KoA, but what's dark to one person is light to another. Unless we get a definite description from Ms. Turner herself, I think this issue is open to both interpretation and imagination.

From:

aged-crone.livejournal.com

On my dad's side I'm Italian; on my mom's, Irish, German, and Dutch. My brothers and sister tan if you light a match in the next room. I am of a pallor so ghastly that light reflected from my legs could probably blind passing motorists. We're all "white," but I'm the only one of whom that's nearly literally true.

From:

jyms.livejournal.com

i don't remember any particular mention of skin colour that struck me. i didn't really imagine Gen with a skin colour, when reading i usually just visualise the facial features. but now that you talk of it, i think Spanish.

From:

rowana.livejournal.com

Mmm, I have to agree with most other people. The cover art is beautiful, if a little incorrect, but no cover ever seems to really capture a character properly. I guess I see Gen as looking more Spanish or Italian. Though someone mentioned people of the Himalayas - that seems to fit in with the fact that Eddis is the Mountain country.

I'm more interested in their respective accents - Gen with a Scottish accent is wonderful to imagine.

From:

My main objection to the KoA cover art is the scar on his face is all wrong (assuming it is the scar from the end of Thief). It should be a leaf shape, and healed. It is mentioned in the later books how he is so pale when sick/injured/upset the scar shows dark against his skin.

Does anyone (you Brits, perhaps?) know if the British paperback of KoA will have the same cover art as the hardcover, or if it will be by the artist who did the UK Thief and QoA covers? I have an order in to amazon.co.uk trying to get the British versions of the pb's (TT and QoA), but they keep getting delayed; I have a feeling they are no longer available and I will never see my order.

From:

Feather-shaped, I think (the scar).

From:

You're right. I always pictured it in my head as sort of a narrow birch leaf shaped => feather shape

From:

So think about it -

The stories are in a Mediterranean setting,
the Eddisians have a Scottish accent,
and they were modeled after the people of the Himalayas.

From:

I'm really intrigued by the comment of Megan's. We all assumed Greek/Italian, but people of Nepal (is that right?) have a unique look. I wonder if she pictures the Eddisians as having Asian-like eyes.

From:

emmaco.livejournal.com

Sorry for the late contribution. I didn't really notice Gen's skin/appearance in the book (kinda small and brownish maybe?) but recently read an excellent essay pointing out that white readers often don't notice this aspect as their appearance is the default. It's when you're a minority trying to find a hero that looks remotely like you that you notice.

On this topic, Martha Wells pointed out recently that her book The wheel of the infinite (http://www.marthawells.com/wheel.htm) (great book BTW) had a black woman lead and a white male secondary lead. In the hard back the main character was on the front (picture the image in the link folded in half) but in the paperback they flipped it to have the white guy on the front, perhaps thinking it would appeal to more people. Pretty appalling I think!

From:

jen94kp.livejournal.com

I have to admit I always thought Gen was a little darker too. I figured he was a little pasty in the QOA cover because he'd been sick so much. Since I read somewhere the landscape was supposed to be similar to Greece. I was thinking he looked, well, Greek.

From:

jen94kp.livejournal.com

I meant KOA, Although the poor boy seems to get sick in every book.

From:

rowana.livejournal.com

I have to say, his skin tone seems closer to the books on the British cover of 'The Thief': http://www.amazon.co.uk/Thief-Megan-Whalen-Turner/dp/000712175X

Then again, that could just be due to the fact that he's in a dark cave. :)

From:

By the way, I'd like to point out that MWT's story "Leroy Roachbane" (in "Instead of Three Wishes") is about this very issue of nonwhite children being unable to find themselves represented in books at their local library. And what a creative take on the issue it is!

From:

haleysings.livejournal.com

Ooh! I remember that story! That was one of my favorites in that book. (Although my absolute favorite was the ghost story, about the girl in the construction site...that's the one I remember the most detail about.)

From:

netslefj.livejournal.com

I've always seen Gen as slight, Mediterranean skin tone, dark haired, and physically maturing slowly - he may never have much facial hair, he may look young for a couple of decades more. That's part of what throws the Attolians off when they are told to consider him their King. The KoA cover bothers me because it seems like the illustrator didn't quite bother to comprehend the story.

Here's hoping Gen doesn't have to tempt death or fight off any more massive infections for a while. I've never known another character who throws his mortality into the equation so wholeheartedly and often as Gen does.

From:

I picture Gen pretty much the same way. As not having filled out yet, although the description of him in KoA in the steam room didn't make him sound too immature. Maybe a wiry build.

Why do you think he is so careless with himself? Maybe because he hates to lose so much? Because he never gives up? Even more than his injuries, I think of Ornon's comment that he sometimes thinks he can't manage the jumps but he always jumps anyway. The scenes where he is sick and feverish seem to be used to make us more sympathetic to Gen and his sense of honor.

From:

netslefj.livejournal.com

The more I reread, the more I think that Gen's belief in his god is behind his apparent risk-taking. Maybe it's immaturity, too? Eddis doesn't think this way. Remember his conversation with Eddis just after his unauthorized scouting mission to Attolia in QoA?

From:

"What would I do if they send back the pieces?" "Bury them?"

Is that what you're referring to? I don't have the books, and so not the exact quote.

From:

Or maybe it's something to do with his training/position as Thief. Isn't there a line somewhere about the thieves not being trained in self-preservation? Or did I just dream that up?

Gen took a lot of risks and carried out stupid, foolhardy plans before he really believed in the gods. That's how he ended up in Sounis's prison.

From: