Thick As Thieves Reread Chapters 1 - 3
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queensthiefWelcome to Week One of our Thick As Thieves reread! This week we’ll discuss Chapters 1 through 3, pages 1 - 85 in the hardback edition.![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
ninedaysaqueen said we can structure this however we want, so I decided to break it into the elements I like most to consider when I’m reading one of Megan’s books. For TaT, those would include an important theme, the hints and tricks that Megan lays out for us, the humor in the book, the growth of the main character(s), and the stories/poems. Add your comments and let’s start a discussion!
Numbers in parenthesis refer to page numbers in the American hardback edition.
Slavery is a theme that plays a tremendously important part of TaT. Kamet is a fascinating mix of feelings of superiority and inferiority. He remembers his mother and a life before he was a slave, but it’s been his life for a long time. He’s fortunate to be such a highly placed slave and has learned to make the most of it. He prides himself for his skill in “handling” Nahuseresh (5) and blames himself for his “foolish mistake” in offering a congratulatory toast, rather than being angry at Nahuseresh for the beating (1). He has flogging scars on his back (38). He wears a shift and a gold neck chain, with bare legs and short hair. He says things like, “I knew from long experience how tiring fear is…” (40). The household has slaves who are “dancing girls” that are almost certainly concubines.
Questions:
Why do “The Medes fear little in quite the way they fear their own slaves.”?
How hard do you think it will be, as Kamet lives his life, to get beyond his past life and really become a Free Man?
Did you think Kamet used the term “Master” sarcastically, sometimes?
I know we talked about this when the book first came out, but did anyone else feel sick at Nahuseresh’s treatment of Kamet after the beating, and all that was left unsaid? “When he was done with me” (6) caused me to infer some pretty awful things.
Hints and Tricks
“I think Leala had a friend among the servants set aside for the Attolian ambassador.” (10)
“..she (Laela) was sickly pale. ..” and “I could smell the cosmetics on her skin…” (16) Did you figure out that Laela was in on the plot to trick Kamet into leaving? I certainly didn’t! I assume she made herself up to look pale before she spoke to Kamet.
“In fact, if my eyesight had been better, the whole course of this narrative might have been different.” (11) He meets Costis in the dark hallway then, but it also foreshadows the court scene in Attolia.
“He had a gold ring in his ear, dangling a polished cylinder of stone--the stone was solid black, semiprecious at best.” Later we learn the importance of the earring, but I immediately thought of the obsidian from the maze in The Thief.
Questions:
He told me his name, as if he expected me to use it.” (38) and on page 78, Costis says his name is Aris. How long did it take you to decide yes, this Attolian IS Costis?
Humor
Nahusersquish has a wife! (2) For some reason, that made me laugh so much. Maybe I was thinking what Attolia would have done to him, had she known.
“It was like being lectured by an earnest, oversized child.” (14)
He was almost certainly not educated.” (37)
“If there was not much intelligence in his features…” (37)
Attolians are for the most part uneducated. (47) Part of the reason I found these comments funny was that they were not only wrong, but showed Kamet’s prejudice and sense of superiority.
“Good thing it isn’t deeper,” he observed. If he had previously displayed any sense of humor, I would have suspected him of laughing at me…” (55) This is when they jump off the burning ship. We know Costis’s dry humor from “not noticeably, your Majesty” and “the heir or the assassination.”
“What sort of idiot can’t keep his purse tied to his belt?” (56)
“It seemed like hours that he sat on the small stool by the bed, lost in his thoughts--or whatever he had in his head that approximated thoughts.” (64)
“The Attolian waited, far and away the most eloquent nonspeaker i think I have ever known.” (73)
Question:
What were your favorite snide remarks and humorous parts of the chapters?
Growth of the Characters
In this first part of the book, Kamet and “The Attolian” have barely begun to bond and become comfortable with one another. Both are hiding things from the other, especially Costis, who hardly talks at first. We learn about him and his motivations much more slowly that those of Kamet, whose head we’re in. He’s polite to Kamet, sharing his food and insisting he not be called, “Master.” He thanks Kamet for telling him the first story of Immikek and Ennikar.
Toward the end of Chapter 3, the tables start to turn as Kamet gets glimpses of what Costis is capable of. Clever Costis, tricking the innkeeper into thinking they were headed to Zabrisa, and disposing of Kamet’s slave clothes in a way no one would find them. (67)
“We aren’t going to the West Caraban site,” the Attolian replied, and his words were knife-edged. “We aren’t going to Zabrisa, either, he added, and I swallowed, my mouth suddenly dry. He had seen what I had been thinking. “Don’t call me master again,” he warned, and we walked on.” (69) “He was not the fool I had taken him for.” (75)
Questions:
Who set the fire? Costis? Ennikar? The Namreen?
Why did Kamet oversleep at the inn when he was so determined to leave?
What other signs did you see to indicate the shift in their relationship, and their ideas about one another? To paraphrase Casablanca, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful Bromance.
Immakuk and Ennikar
Lastly, a few words about the epic poem. There’s only one in this section of the book (47), along with two visits from the “wine merchant.” My favorite parts:
Immakuk (Kamet)
Cloaked in wisdom
Bound but not bound well
Bound but not committed
Bound but not performing
In shame sent out to wander the world, to learn the ways of welcome and unwelcome
Learned about blessings accepted and blessings deserved
Ennikar/Costis
Greatly strong clothed in strength
Great in strength greatly admired
In the city from whence he came
In the world Ennikar learned about blessings denied and blessings shared
Learned I like to wander said Ennikar
And hmmm...is this yet to come?
Wander with me then friend Immakuk of friend Ennikar asked
together they went seeking the day of their return to Immakuk’s city
no subject
Date: 2/18/19 12:39 am (UTC)As an aside, I've been browsing some old threads and loved a discussion on 'what more is there MWT can do with POV? There isn't anything left'. Also, checkers65477 - I saw a comment from you where you called the main idea of TaT pretty closely (something like predicint Costis and Gen enter the Mede empire to go after Nahuseresh). I was impressed.
Slavery:
Kamet is a fascinating blend of superiority and inferiority throughout the book with his rigid attention to his place in the universe among other slaves, free men, 'masters', and the Attolians as a whole. I think this theme is an interesting carry-over from aCoK, with the differences highlighted between slaves and free men working with Sophos and their own little field hand hierarchy.
- Why do “The Medes fear little in quite the way they fear their own slaves.”?
My spouse points out that this is a historical question, as there has always been a challenge in civilizations owning and training slaves to the point that the masters become more competent in watching slaves than actually doing the work themselves. I think the entire book of TaT bears this out, as it shows pretty clearly just how devastating the damage can be of a very well-trained, efficient, and well-placed slave who uses their training and inside access to do more damage than a frontal attack by a small country to a larger one.
- Kamet becoming a free man: I'd imagine there will probably lingering issues for Kamet to confront for the rest of his life. I wonder if this might be some of the "Wander with me then friend Immakuk of friend Ennikar asked" journey you mentioned, although I can absolutely still see this being in a very literal sense later. I wonder how much longer this process would take were Kamet to try finding his footing in the Attolian court rather than in a free version of his little nook back home with a friend who has always seen his value and treats him as free instantly.
- I definitely feel there is some sarcastic Master use, especially considering Kamet's attitude toward Costis at the beginning of the book. He feared and possibly loathed Nahuseresh, but he had a healthy respect born of fear for him.
Hints and Tricks:
- I missed Laela's involvement 100%. If I thought anything of the description, it was to assume that she also knew the possible future of the slaves of a murdered Mede.
- I have some thoughts about this for the discussion I'm hosting in a few weeks, but I think Kamet is nearsighted in overall perspective as well as literally. I think this 'course of the narrative' might have changed comment is another of those lovely layered statements that can be interpreted multiple ways.
- I have wondered in the past if Gen would ever return to the Seperchia and look for bits of Hephestial glass. I could certainly see it being something of a personal emblem, like unto the Hamiathe's Gift flag.
- I knew Costis was going to have a special mission as the new Attolian-order King's Thief, so I knew it was him as soon as the book started. The "Aris" naming did throw me, because it did seem possible and I believe there's a hint in aCoK he's got a job of his own, but rereading it I think it's probably the result of training with Gen, that if you pick a pseudonym, pick one you can respond to at least semi-naturally.
no subject
Date: 2/18/19 12:56 am (UTC)I can't edit, but I meant to write: 'What what more is there MWT can do with POV? There isn't anything left'. TaT: hold my Remchik.
"Who set the fire?"
- This question has bothered me from the first read-through of TaT. I have a half-formed theory that the fire was part of larger world action heading toward open warfare with Attolia, but I tend to lean more toward Ennikkar. The fact that the mysterious traveler is highlighted so specifically makes me feel he was involved, and possibly another visit from Ennikkar. There's a certain irony to Kamet thinking 'I'm going to jump ship' turning into into a plot point of 'okay, everyone's going to jump ship now'. I don't think Costis and Kamet would have become friends at all if they'd had a simple voyage by boat for a week or so rather than a lengthy overland trek. I saw many more instances this re-read of Kamet's decisions being railroaded, particularly when each time he decides he's going to run (like Kamet oversleeping when he was going to leave).
Humor:
- N having a wife was almost one of the bigger plot twists of the book for me. One would think after QoA and even KoA your opinion of him couldn't sink lower, and then the double-whammy of N's wife and the beating hits you, not to mention the continued overwheening pride and possible scummy acts perpetrated on Kamet.
- I really caught so much more of Kamet's personality and humor this time around, and his character fleshed out a lot more for me. It was a very enjoyable read.
Not humorous lines, but I saw so many little hints in understated sentences both of Costis' capability (asking about Mede words he didn't understand after stories, etc.), and hinting at the end - "I hadn't known my master was in such danger" p. 20, or " It seemed the news was still too fresh to have traveled north from the city." p. 51
Character growth is such a huge part of these chapters, and something I could go into more depth but I feel like I've already responded at much too much length.
no subject
Date: 2/18/19 06:38 am (UTC)What what more is there MWT can do with POV? There isn't anything left'. TaT: hold my Remchik.
XD That's perfect!
no subject
Date: 2/23/19 11:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/19/19 03:20 pm (UTC)That was certainly true in this book. Kamet's insider information turned out to be the ruin of the entire Mede navy. I also think he could have meant it in a more straightforward than that. The keep their slaves in line through violence and intimidation so those slaves, who probably make up a pretty big number of people in the country, aren't able to put together an uprising.
no subject
Date: 2/19/19 03:24 pm (UTC)I love this! As he wanders with his friend, Costis, he'll come to realize just how small his world was, and how wrong his perception of so many things. Including his judgements of other people.
I could certainly see it being something of a personal emblem, like unto the Hamiathe's Gift flag.
Wait, is this a thing? If it isn't, someone who's a better seamstress than I needs to make one!
no subject
Date: 2/19/19 11:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/23/19 11:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/24/19 10:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2/18/19 05:57 am (UTC)One of the reasons for the fall of Rome was over-reliance on slave labor. Giving power and knowledge to someone who has every reason to hate you (loss of freedom, physical and emotional abuse) doesn't seem wise.
I love how Kamet turns master into an insult. He's obviously been very trodden down over the years, but he's still got that small spark of rebellion.
Kamet's "skill" of handling Nahuseresh comes about with the serious consequence of eggshell syndrome--common in abuse victims. In other words, constantly trying to judge their abuser's mood and manage their reactions. He repeatedly does this with Costis, which is so painful to read, but very cathartic when he realizes he doesn't have to.
I still have a hard time reading the "when he was done with me" scene. Urgg, I don't like it. Gives me all sorts of bad feels. Not because of Megan's writing, but the gross undertones are really uncomfortable.
Hints and Tricks
I figured out the Attolian was Costis from the moment Kamet said his Medean was terrible. The Aris alias didn't make me think it was Aris, because it was Costis who had obviously been groomed for this mission.
Humor
Considering KoA starts with Costis writing a letter, he can indeed read and write. He also mentions a tutor, so he's well educated, and a member of the landowning upper class. So Kamet thinking he was some uneducated country bumpkin was more amusing than offensive, and it was especially funny when Costis proved him wrong.
Kamet trying to drown in shallow water was my favorite. JUST STAND UP! XD
Character Growth
Didn't the fire get in the way of the Namreen searching the ships? I'm starting to think it was the random merchant (Ennikar) Kamet mentioned not wanting to carry for.
I'm also wondering if the gods didn't have a hand in Kamet sleeping in. At first, I thought Kamet was starting to feel safe and had simply relaxed, but he doesn't really feel safe yet. Every time Kamet tries to escape, they tend to get in the way or nudge him back towards Costis.
Kamet starting to respect Costis is the biggest shift in this section. Costis seems to be able to read Kamet easily and the disdain Kamet was expressing had obviously started to get on Costis's nerves. Good thing Costis is good at dealing with difficult people. XD
Immakuk and Ennikar
I do love how the poems foreshadow their journey. The only question now is how will their wandering play into RoT?
And now for Random Thoughts with Lady Jane
Date: 2/18/19 06:21 am (UTC)Chapter One
“...crooked men assume others are crooked, as well...” p8
I really feel like this is a call back to Helen’s line in QoA about thieves always thinking others are stealing from them. That whole scene in QoA was about a traitor, hmm? Is that a hint about what Nahuseresh is up to?
The accounts from Nahuseresh’s home estate are unbalanced. Where's that extra money going to? And I don't believe the sexist stereotype of Nahuseresh's wife spending all of his money.
The secretary of that estate hired this shady, Rakra guy. I’m really starting to think that this is foreshadowing for Nahuseresh planning a rebellion against his brother, just like Gen suggested to Costis.
“I smiled politely. Well trained, I would have smiled so at my executioner.” p24
There seems to be a heavy tone of disgust in sentences like these. I don’t think I’ve previously taken note of the sheer number of times Kamet uses expressions like “well-trained” and “obedient.” Almost like he’s talking about a well conditioned dog. There does appear to be some undertones of disgust in his retrospective narrative, as if he's disdainfully about his compliance.
Chapter Two
“...the first of my many lies.” p32
Kamet is writing this before he leaves the Attolian palace. At this point, he’s still thinking that he’s never going to see Costis again, and he’s beating himself up for lying… aahhhhhh! Dear, Kamet.
“I’d thought the Attolian was a talker, but I’d been mistaken.” p41
This time reading the book, I had this image of Costis practicing exactly what he was going to say to Kamet in a mirror. Like… before going to find Kamet, he’d planned out his entire speech, trying to get his Mede perfect and everything. XD
First Immakuk and Ennikar poem. p47
There are some interesting parallels here. Immakuk loses his position, because of his failure as a gatekeeper. Ennikar fails in much the same way, though perhaps, a little more embarrassingly. Kamet and Costis also perceive that they have failed, which starts the journey for both of them. Costis thinks he has failed when he punches the king. Kamet when he fails to foresee Nahuseresh’s "assassination." This, however, is only the beginning of their story.
Chapter Three
“We aren’t going to Zabrisa, either.” p69
So, so, so... this took me a ridiculously long time to get, but I finally figured out exactly why Costis’s words were “knife-edged.” Costis knows that Kamet thinks he is foolish for selling his ring and letting the innkeeper know where they are going. In that one phrase, Costis is actually saying: yes, I know you think I’m a bumbling idiot, who is leading the Namreen straight to us; but I am, in fact, leaving a false trail as a distraction. I’m not quite as dumb as I look, thank you very much.
I can’t think of a more Costis thing to do. So much expressed in so few words!
“...and it appeared that the caravan was going to be safe even if I was one of the people responsible for protecting it.” p78
I appreciate this line so much. It’s so relatable! XD
Re: And now for Random Thoughts with Lady Jane
Date: 2/18/19 07:56 am (UTC)I love how often the 'thieves see others thieving' line is applicable throughout the books. One of my favorite lines. I was really struck with the account inaccuracies this time as well. I could see it being a couple of different things, but hadn't considered it being Nahuseresh funding his own rebellion. We have seen examples of this with the fabulous 'baron misrepresents types of grain grown and Gen/Costis learn the error through a painfully enthusiastic lecture' sideline, so someone 'mismanaging' the estate and 'misplacing' funds could make sense. N blaming it on his wife would just be one more nail in his coffin of despicability.
I could also see it being a pretty sweet revenge for N to overconfidently overreach and destabilize the Mede empire enough for Attolia and friends to swoop in and destroy it.
"many lies" - this actually partially answers a question I had myself. The many mentions of his deception being partially because he's writing this after the fact and trying to explain or justify his decision a little to himself and the reader.
I LOVE the image of Costis practicing before a mirror (possibly in the Attolian envoy suite), and imagining himself as proving himself to his king, serving his country, and being a great rescuer of the downtrodden Kamet. He doesn't seem given to much drama, but I could see him earnestly taking this assignment very seriously and imagining this balancing out his ten gold cups debt.
I really love your interpretation of of the Immakuk/Ennikar poem. The 'myths' in the books always take me the longest to sort through and understand on a deeper level than 'Hey, two dudes on a bro-venture. It sounds just like Costis and Kamet!'
Re: And now for Random Thoughts with Lady Jane
Date: 2/19/19 03:32 pm (UTC)Oh man, that would be tremendously satisfying. Better than beating Nahuseresh's ass with an entire army. I can just hear Gen saying, "Hey, you brought it all on yourself, bro."
Re: And now for Random Thoughts with Lady Jane
Date: 2/20/19 04:22 am (UTC)Re: And now for Random Thoughts with Lady Jane
Date: 2/23/19 11:37 pm (UTC)Re: And now for Random Thoughts with Lady Jane
Date: 2/24/19 03:38 am (UTC)