On Lader and Gen's childhood

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Spoilers spoilers spoilers! Beware!

I have been trawling through various books to figure this out...

Gen was no more than ten when he was forced to kill Lader, possibly younger than that.

Read on and weep with me...

“Sophos started to say, “Your mother, did she--” and then stopped when he realized what he was asking.
“Fall out of a window when I was ten? Yes, but not out of the Baron Eructhes’s villa. She’d been dancing on the roof of the palace and slipped coming back in.” (TT, 1998 edition, pg 215)

So, Gen was ten when his mother died.

We know he "did not wait" after her death to declare his intention to be the next Thief of Eddis to his father, and that they fought in front of the whole court:

“When his mother had died, Eugenides hadn’t waited to tell his father his intentions to be the next Thief of Eddis. His father, the loss of his wife still fresh, had been enraged. Eugenides and his father had fought, both of them exercising their grief in anger with each other, in front of the entire court.
The cousins, who idolized the minister of war, increased their attacks on Eugenides, and bad feelings grew until Eddis moved him out of the boys’ dormitory and into the only free room that she could think of, an anteroom to the rarely used palace library. (QoA boat edition, pg 55)

So he'd be ten still during this fight, presumably, since it happened very close after his mother's death.

It's hard to know how long he was in the dormitory before Eddis moved him out, but it sounds like the fighting with his father precipitated the increased hostilities with his cousins, which made Eddis move him into her library. So perhaps not too long, several months or a year??

"Earned his tattoos, Cleon?" Eddis had lost all patience. "He killed his man before he left the boys' house!
[...] Eddis had always known what precipitated the horrendous shouting match between Gen and his father when the minister of war had tried to force his enrollment as a soldier. She knew why he hated the business of killing so much." (RotT, pg 272)

Lader died before Gen left the boys dormitories.

Either Gen had two horrendous shouting matches with his father in front of the court, or the shouting match after his mother's death where he declared his intention to be the next Thief is the same famous shouting match where Gen tore up his enrollment papers to the army and declared "in front of an embarassing number of witnesses," to never take a sword by the handle unless his life was in danger. I understand that his mother being dead means not only that he was grieving, but that he was now eligeable to inherit the Thief title directly from his Grandfather. And as the Thief, he would have full control over who and when he must fight and kill (or so he expected). He says in TT that he became Thief to avoid the killing:

"I had become a thief, to avoid the killing. See where that had gotten me." (TT)
"It is like a sheepdog who suddenly turns on the sheep," he said. "It feels utterly right in the moment, never afterward. That's why I wouldn't let someone else send me into battle. I never wanted to fight until I believed it was neccessary."

So the fact that he had had this experience of killing someone already was what was behind his desire to become Thief, not soldier.

As the Thief, he'd have control over who and when he killed (or so he thought; obviously, as the fight in TT shows, it isn't always easy to defend yourself without causing death. This casts Gen's anguished reaction to that death in TT in a new light; it was not the experience of killing someone that was new, but the fact that as Thief, he'd been no safer from doing so and avoiding something he'd already given so much to never experience again. How awful. How painful the aftermath of killing Lader must have been.

It is possible that maybe there were two famous shouting matches, and that the killing happened sometime between the first shouting match and his moving out of the dormitories, but I think the evidence points more to it being an event that happened before or when he was ten, likely before his mothers death, and that it was why he wanted so badly to be Thief when inheriting that role was suddenly opened by her death. He would not have to fight at anyone else's instruction again.

It also explains why he empathized Attolia so well, seeing her having to do cruel things, and indeed why he is so able to understand people and show compassion to them.

Comments

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

This has been a hot topic, so here's my take on it... (with textual evidence) :)

Helen became queen when Gen was ten or bit older. (Thief! & The Queen of Attolia, chapter four)

Helen has been queen of Eddis for five years in TT. (The Thief, chapter 12)

So, Gen is fifteen or possibly sixteen in The Thief. Going on if his birthday is indeed in summer, as was implied in RoT. TT takes place in late summer.

Gen tore up his enrollment papers and swore to never take a sword by the hilt two years before the TT takes place. (The Thief, chapter 12)

That was the horrendous shouting match Helen is referring to. Gen would've been thirteen or fourteen when this enrollment paper fight took place. Gen killed Lader before this fight, but sometime after his initial quarrels with his father, which started after his mother died when he was ten.

"You tore up your enrollment papers during the last fight with your father." (The Queen of Attolia, chapter four)

The LAST FIGHT not THE FIGHT, meaning there has been more than one if not several fights between Gen and his father. Also, ten is a little young to enroll in the army. I know thirteen is young too, but the kid would've at least hit puberty by thirteen.

It's unclear exactly when Helen moved Gen into the library over the course of these three to four years between his mother dying and the enrollment paper fight.

The word precipitated means to hasten the occurrence of, leading me to believe the enrollment paper fight took place not long after the death of Lader.

Conclusion, Gen was forced to kill Lader when he was thirteen or fourteen.

Still a child, and something I cannot wrap my head around. It breaks my heart for poor baby!Gen. Still, it's not implausible for a twelve or thirteen year old boy to be able kill an adult. (I bring this up not because you said it was implausible, but I've seen other people say it was implausible for him to kill an adult when he was that young.) Masashi, the famous samurai, killed an adult man, who was a samurai, when he was thirteen. I'm sure there are other examples throughout history.

Love your observation that this is why Gen empathizes with Irene.

[(Anonymous)]

My memory fails me but why was gen made to kill lader? And was it his grandfather who was eddis who made him
Do that?

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Gen was forced to kill Lader by his grandfather who was the Thief of Eddis. As for the why... Lader offended the gods when he deliberately broke some of Eugenides's fingers. Eugenides is sacred to the god he is named for. This implies the gods are offended if Gen is harmed in such a way that he can longer serve as the vessel for the Thief god.

Gives new meaning to Irene asking if she had offended the gods...yikes.

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

I agree the breaking of the fingers was an offense to the god, but I also wonder if the fact that they were retrieving what Gen stole at the time had something to do with it. Also, I bet you that Lader had intentions to go much farther, and was an extremely violent man. I'm guessing it was becoming a situation where Lader may have attempted to kill Gen (whether premeditated or in a fit or rage), and the king's Thief knew it would only continue to happen, so it was Gen or Lader.

I'm also going to assume that the King's Thief was a very skilled assassin, and it was a normal part of his duty to kill people. He wanted Gen to be trained and used to the business before he became Thief.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

Gives new meaning to Irene asking if she had offended the gods...yikes.

And at the response to her question is worded "...and he heard someone whisper with his voice, 'No, Your Majesty.'"

I always thought this meant Eugenides the god was answering through Gen, and after everything in RotT, I'm even more certain.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

OUCH. Yes.

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

What wrecks me about this is that I think the specific wording of "he heard someone whisper with his voice" means Gen knows this was Eugenides and explains a lot of Gen's grief and emotional state throughout QoA. I think this is confirmation in Gen's mind that the gods have abandoned him, that he failed as Thief and lost his hand in just punishment (maybe an archaic punishment that means a lot more in terms of being Thief than we know). He's not only physically recovering from some serious injuries and a loss that's already going to be difficult to cope with, but trying to figure out what this means for his life:
- after what happened to Lader, what should happen to Irene because of those rules, but then Eugenides confirms she hasn't offended the gods, so the conclusion has to be that he failed them
- so does that mean he's no longer the Thief and supported by the gods, because he failed?
- but he's still needed by his court and returns to some Thief duties and succeeds, so if he is still the Thief, why did they let that happen without retribution? And if he is the Thief, will they let retribution fall on Irene, the woman he's fascinated by and coming to love?

It took a bit for me to better understand Gen's anger at the gods specifically for a punishment for thieves that's common across many cultures and stories, but after RotT it's not only something I've slowly made a case for, it makes total sense to me.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Good point, wow.

I think Gen doesn't take it as proof that the gods betrayed him -- he doesn't know that until the end of the book when he learns that they betrayed his hiding places and told Attolia how to catch him.

I think he takes it as proof that he made a mistake. The gods are not offended, so he did something wrong and paid the price and that must have been in some way right. He squares it by thinking the mistake was his.

He blames himself until the end when he learns that he made no mistake except trusting them.

It explains to me a bit why he doesn't blame Attolia. If the gods were ok with her punishment...

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

You said this better - I agree

[canonisrelative.livejournal.com]

Oh, wow. OUCH indeed.

[colinne patrice (from livejournal.com)]

Wow... I had'nt noticed that one at all in my latest reread after RoTT. Now I have to read QoA again.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Ooh two years before TT... I missed that bit of evidence. Very good.

So our timeline goes:

-death of his mom (age 10)
-declares that he'll be the next Thief, fights with his father in front of court
-bullying gets worse due to being at odds with his father, who the other boys hero worship

-lader and cleon break his fingers after he steals some earrings (age 13 or 14)
-Helen as queen gets on her knees to beg for Cleon's life
-the Thief makes Gen kill Lader
-enrollment fight, vow to never take a blade by the hilt (age 13 or 14)
-Helen moves him out of the boys dormitories

-sounis threatens to give the stone to Gen if Eddis won't marry him (14 or 15)
-counsel votes to kill Gen
-MoW bankrolls Gen to get the stone

Where have people been talking about it? I have so much to process about this book.

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

There's a shared google doc for figuring out timelines, with references.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CbK881SkxXuQ0oDdFDjle3VPmm_k1IuP505-DG6DknY/edit

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

This topic specifically has been discussed at length in the Discord server. LiveJournal is great for a more organized discussion of specific topics, but Discord has been a good place for dealing with a lot of emotions and general reactions.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Ah! I love Discord but if you're not there at the right moment you do miss things. Thanks!!

[readsintrees.livejournal.com]

One note...you said, " I understand that his mother being dead means not only that he was grieving, but that he was now eligible to inherit the Thief title directly from his Grandfather."

I don't think his mother dying cleared the way for him to take the Thief title....because his mom wasn't the Queen's Thief. She was called Queen Thief, but I don't recall it ever being implied that she was the heir presumptive to the official Thief title. I think we've assumed it, but I don't think it was ever stated.

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

So, can someone poke holes in the theory below? I really can't picture a 10 year old killing someone unless they were directly under attack.

Possible timeline:

- Gen's mother dies (10 years old)
- Fight about next Thief (10 years old)
- Time passes (could be years, for all we know)
- Lader is killed
- Time passes (could be years, for all we know)
- Fight about enrollment

Also, Gen's grandfather dies sometime after Lader. What if:
- King's thief dies
- MoW realizes Gen still has ambitions to be Thief. Also, MoW realizes Gen's ambitions put him in danger from the council. MoW presses the issue of enrolling in the army as a last resort to get Gen off the Thief track. Big fight ensues, Gen refuses very publicly, which unsettles the council further. Two years later, Gen steals the gift.

So there could have been a two-year period for things to grow to the point that Sounis threatens to make Gen king by the gift, and the council finally votes to have Gen killed. Eddisians don't want a Thief to be king, Gen insists on being the Thief, but has not proven himself loyal to Eddis. The act of giving her the gift, when he could have kept it and been king is the ultimate sign that the council was wrong about him.

[(Anonymous)]

sorry, this isn't really in relation to the post but i actually was curious about his cousins so i went back and re-read some bits of the thief and queen of attolia and noticed that he has a cousin named cleon who dies in QoA. does this mean there are three cleons, since i think? there are two in RoTT?

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

I haven't tracked this down specifically, but it seems to be a relatively common name like Ion so it's totally possible.

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

You are thinking of Creon. QoA chapter 7, page 86. When Gen first learns Attolia/Eddis are at war.

A cousin of Gen named Cleon died in QoA

[lady_ruthless]

QoA,Chapter 11, page 172 (ppk) "Two others [cousins], Cleon and Hermander, had been wounded in those battles and died of infection over the summer."

[empmai2.livejournal.com]

This book made me not like Gen's grandfather. Especially the Lader story and his grandfather making him kill the guy.

This was a much more intense book, I don't know if it was the narrator, as Pheris isn't a character that seems to have a lot of social fun or commaudree sp?) (whether that's just his upbringing or also his personality I still don't know).

I think it is awful that Gen killed his first person so young. But it didn't even phase me when I first read the Thief and Sophos had a sword and was expected to perhaps use it when the Attolian guards were attacking them? Sophos was only like 12?

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I always got the impression the MoW had good reason to be a little dubious about Gen's grandfather's interest in him, but you're right, this book makes the grandfather look even more sinister. I thought Gen had a fond relationship with him, but now I'm wondering.

I'm confused about Lader's age. As Gen's cousin, I was picturing him young, but I realize cousins can vary greatly in age. Was Lader a grown man when he broke Gen's fingers? That would frame it a little differently, like Sophos having to defend himself while still a boy from armed-and-ready-to-kill guards. (The broken fingers could also be an indication of worse abuse, but there's so much that's left to subtext, I don't even know what to make of it.) Death for broken fingers is extreme, and if Lader was still young, it's especially distasteful to think of a boy being made to kill another boy.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really like the darkness this adds to story, especially The Thief.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I don't either. I have been struggling with it.

It says Lader was at least twice his age, and also describes him as a grown man. So he was at least in his twenties.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Okay - thanks for clarifying for me. I've been waiting for my hardcopy to arrive so I can reread and hopefully get a better grasp of some of these details. Grown man makes a little more sense to me. I wonder if Lader is the type of person Gen's grandfather would normally deal with (sparing Helen the potential political backlash), and in this case, he decided it was time for Gen to learn how to defend himself. Though, it is presented less like self-defense and more like a vengeance assassination, which is still a lot darker than I would like it to be, and messes with my previous concept of Gen's character and his arc within the books. I'm going to have to ponder this one. You're not the only one struggling. And I say that as someone who is still very much enjoying RotT.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I think it is meant to be a darker look at Gen. Of what he could become. Not saying it's not okay for you to not like that of course... :) Here's my take on it.

I think the strong parallels between Emtis (Pheris's abuser) and Lader are deliberate and are meant to flesh-out some things for us. Implying that Lader (a grown man) was deliberately seeking out a child he thought was weaker than him to abuse on multiple occasions.

Also, the deliberate character shots: He was posinous. Helen wouldn't beg for him. They assumed a jealous husband got him. (Translation: He was sleeping with married women.) All there to tell us he wasn't a great guy.

Not that any of that justifies killing him, of course. However the deliberate parallels with Pheris reveals a child without adult protection acting out of fear. Fear that had turned into hatred, which lead to vengeance.

"He'd hurt me, and I thought I was justified in hurting him. Perhaps I would have been if I'd acted from fear alone. Instead, I'd taken revenge and only afterward asked what my hate had made of me. (...) Fear and hatred twine together." p371

What will you become when you're afraid was a major theme of the last volume of RWBY. The song, FEAR (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b2b_uKfxkU), and this monologue (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBORAA1gPdw) from RWBY kinda hits the theme I think Megan was going far.

Gen not acting out of fear and resentment in his handling of Sejanus and showing mercy ties back to this theme. He's not a child anymore who can somewhat justify his actions with self-defense and a lack of adults taking responsibility. He's a king and a grown man. He can't act out of his fear. That's what happened to Irene.

I also like how this ties back to the whole series's overall themes of forgiveness, loving your enemy, and not seeking out vengeance. Cruelty begets cruelty and someone has to break the cycle. That's kinda what Sejanus was saying too.
About Gen starting a new rebellion with each one he puts down.

[empmai2.livejournal.com]

Re - paralleling Pheris and Emit's story.

Maybe factored into this, is Pheris as the narrator, and him bringing in his pre-conceived emotions and paralleling Gen's childhood experiences with his? The Eddisians whole depiction is a lot different in this book than even Kamet's take on them.

Or maybe influencing my read is the state of the real world. Would I have had a different read if this book was released a year ago? Back when intense reads where escapism from the mundane? Mostly these past 7 months I've just been reading light books since March.

Don't get me wrong - I loved the book, but am struggling with the sadness of how this book flips TT.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

that's so valid. I find because mwt leaves so much work up to the reader's memory and imagination, my take on the books varies widely when I reread.

she leaves much of the emotion to be supplied by the reader.

[canonisrelative.livejournal.com]

Remembering that Pheris is neither impartial nor 100% reliable (no 1st-person can be) narrator is key. Just think about the scene we got in TaT, where Kamet describes meeting Pigeon. “Rarely have a seen a smile so transform a face.” We get no hint of that smile in the scene when told from Pheris’s POV. memory and perspective is such a fickle thing.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

I really, really connected with Pheris, and found myself hating Gen for scaring him and for not looking after him the way he needed. That Pheris was mostly looking after Gen was awful for me when I wanted it to be the other way around.

I always imagined Gen's grandfather as a master Ninja with his student. Definitely a harsh taskmaster. This adds more horror to him. It does absolve Gen of some of the responsibility.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I was disappointed with Gen in that scene. But, I think we're supposed to be. Gen is fallible and there's a theme throughout the book of Gen needing to be saved from becoming everything he's tried to save others from becoming. It's clever but uncomfortable sometimes. And Gen does apologize to Pheris and amend his behavior. *thumbs up*

(Though, I do kinda wish he hadn't made his apologies in private. He behaved badly in front of his attendants and needed to correct it in front of them too, I think, since it sets a precedent. But I'm grateful for Philo and his kindness and Ion and his morals.)

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

There's a lot to unpack for me with grandfather Eugenideides. I have always had some discomfort with Gen's grandfather that has burgeoned into horror with RotT. The little lines like 'his father would heap scorn on him like coals' or baby!Gen breaks both arms and his grandfather gets mad(?!? although in retrospect I can see some of this as fear for what the consequences might be for letting the Thief break both arms he needs for Thief work) make me cringe inside.

I know I'm judging it from a place of a very different cultural outlook than, say, Sparta, but even in-universe grandpa's expectations and demands seem a little harsh. I had a college professor once say that the Greek gods were the manifestations of human characteristics, like Zeus philandering all over the place or things like petty in-fighting. IT seems to work both ways in this series, but it seems like grandfather's Eugenides is a much more vengeful, dark god than Gen's Eugenides has been (what we've seen to date anyway). I imagine some of that is intentional. Idk, this is definitely one I'm going to need time to process and think through.

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

Okay so I can't remember where this is, but in RotT somewhere (I'm re-reading right now so when I come across it I may update): Cleon/Lader is compared or likened to Sejanus/other attendent(s). Something is said about "standing by watching while someone tried to kill" Gen.

A whisper if an idea fluttered around my mind but I just kept on reading and figured the idea would surface if it was important. It keeps nagging at me that perhaps Cleon also "stood by watching while someone (Lader) tried to kill" Gen, similar to the attendants. Cleon and the other attendants had just enough innocence in the situations to be spared, but Lader/Sejanus didn't.

If this is so, it feeds the "It's either Gen's life or Lader's" position which would better justify why Gen killed Lader (more than breaking fingers, which really feels unjust).

Also, was I the only one who saw parallels for Gen/Lader and Pheris/abusive relative (I can't remember/find his name right now)? It had a theme of young/child victims taking vengeance on their abusers.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Also, was I the only one who saw parallels for Gen/Lader and Pheris/abusive relative (I can't remember/find his name right now)? It had a theme of young/child victims taking vengeance on their abusers.

Definitely not the only one. I noticed it too.

Did Pheris kill his abuser? I can't remember now if it says what he did to him. I got the impression he pushed him out of a window but I don't remember if we know if he survived?

There is certainly a theme of people who do grievous harm to another person then being haunted by or regretting their violence and choosing another way in future. Attolia in QoA, now Gen with Lader and then (with Pheris's help) forgiving Sejanus. Pheris with his abuser and then Sejanus. Sophos with Ion Nomenus and Irene being upset at having been asked. Ion's ultimate future betrayal and help to Pheris and murder.

Pheris being described as a little monster by others, etc. also relates to it for me. Feeling monstrous after having been victimized is so common; but the narrative then ascribing actual harm to both these children, that is hard for me to process. Granted it's something that happens with child soldiers, who are victims themselves just as Pheris and Gen were.

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

If I recall, the book doesn't specify what Pheris did, but that it was very severe and did not kill. It says something like "He lived, but he would not hurt me again."

There are indications that Pheris pushed Lader out of a window - which is why Pheris is freaking out about Costis/Gen goofing around at the window/play strangling. Pheris is sobbing and nobody can figure out why, and Pheris doesn't bother to explain so we just have to try and figure it out.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I think what you're talking about is on page 371 when Pheris is talking about Emtis, his abusive relative, and comparing him to Lader and Sejanus.

I'm pretty sure the strong parallels between Gen and Pheris are there to help us flesh-out some details on Gen's childhood that are left vague due to Pheris's narrative and his own limited knowledge.

Since Lader was a grown man same as Emtis, I think the implication there is that Lader had been deliberately abusing Gen on multiple occasions and not just a childhood bully or even one of Gen's peer cousins trying to get back at him for stealing.

"He'd hurt me, and I thought I was justified in hurting him. Perhaps I would have been if I'd acted from fear alone. Instead, I'd taken revenge and only afterward asked what my hate had made of me." p371

So, this is a big theme in the book. I think Pheris and Gen both initially acted out of fear and a desire for safety. After all, someone twice their age is deliberately physically harming them, and there doesn't seem to be any responsible adults protecting them. Still, they carry guilt because they feel they were mainly acting out of hate and revenge.

Gen's Grandfather

[lady_ruthless]

I agree that ROTT makes Gen's Grandfather Eugenides out to be harsher than I had imagined before, but he would have been the "vessel" for the god Eugenides. Hard to tell who is insisting Gen kill Lader: Grandfather vs. god.
??
Lader harming Gen required retribution by god Eugenides.
Reference chapter 6 of CoK, where Sophus relays what happens when the Magus and Pol beat Gen for allegedly stealing food. "It was as if he was a different person, some stranger who'd manifested in Gen's body."
And yes, it is god Eugenides who tells Irene that she has not offended the gods by chopping off Gen's hand.

imho, as always