Why am I so eager to make Gen's early years a tragedy?

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

Nonetheless...

(Apologies in advance if I am blatantly repeating stuff you've all figured out years ago.  I've looked about and not seen much, but that doesn't mean it's not there.)

Ok, so I've been thinking rather excessively about Gen's family lately, particularly his mother.  I think it would be amazing to get to know her a bit; I get the impression that a lot of Gen's characteristics might be hers (aside from skill with swords, etc., although who knows?) and that she would have the same...fierce but fascinating personality.  Not that I think Gen is excessively fierce, but he can be scary.

Enough babbling.  As a result of my aforementioned thoughts about Gen's mother, I've been thinking about her death, which was reportedly from a fall out of a window in the palace when Gen was young.  He says (to Sophos, I think) in The Thief that she had been dancing on the roof of the palace and slipped coming back in.

Fast forward to KoA, where Gen tells Attolia that he learned to dance square dances from his mother.  He says, "We danced them on the rooftops of the Megaron.  According to legend, the Thief and any partner the Thief chooses will be safe."  (p100 in the hardcover KoA).

Obviously, since his mother wasn't the official Thief, the safety rule didn't apply.  However, I'd always wondered why she'd been dancing on the roof anyway.  I mean, all right, if Attolia can dance in the kitchen gardens, Gen's mother can dance on the palace roof.  But it seems logical to me, knowing what we know now, that she would have been dancing with someone.  Like her son?

I feel like we might have heard more about Gen's mother's death if he had happened to be around, but it may be worth a thought.  I'll probably wake up tomorrow and think about this in a completely different way, though, so who knows?

Go ahead.  Tell me I'm reading things into the text that aren't there, and that I should stop trying to make Gen a tragic hero.  (Hero he is, tragic...hardly.  Anyone who can make me laugh that hard can't be tragic.)

Comments

[annikah.livejournal.com]

You know, that's really interesting. We also learn in QoA that Gen had the habit of disappearing ("All those times you didn't know where I went, mostly it was to Attolia." QoA p.338), so it's possible he could have been out on one of his errands. Do we know how old Gen was when her mother died? (And, follow up questions: How old was Gen when his grandfather died, and he became thief? Did his mother die before or after his grandfather? Argh, I've reread them recently, but I wasn't thinking about this, so I can't remember if we know these answers already...)

No, he isn't tragic. He succeeds at what he does. As of yet his stubbornness and recklessness have yet to cause him to fail utterly. But I'm sure the issue of a tragic hero could be it's own discussion...

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

As of yet his stubbornness and recklessness have yet to cause him to fail utterly. But I'm sure the issue of a tragic hero could be it's own discussion...

*firmly plugs ears and sings disney tunes. loudly*

[keestone.livejournal.com]

I've always assumed that Gen's mother died before his grandfather did.

And I don't think Gen can fit into the tragic hero mold with his recklessness and stubbornness as his hamartia, because he learns from his mistakes. Nyah! :)

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

Yah, I don't really think he's a tragic hero. As you mentioned, he learns from his mistakes, and sheer pigheadedness simply isn't, well, tragic enough for a hamartia. He also actually gets what he wants--his world doesn't just fall apart, it gets put back together.

His past, however, is rather tragic in its own right.

[ricardienne.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that tragic heroes are usually screwed over by circumstance.

And Gen does not let that happen.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Gen was 10 when his mother died, I think. His grandfather died after, but we don't know when. My guess would be sometime between when his mother died and when Gen fought with his father and tore up his enrollment papers for the military. If his grandfather had still been alive, wouldn't he have supported Gen as the next thief, even if it was against the Minister of War's wishes?

[annikah.livejournal.com]

OK, I was thinking he was 10 at one of the deaths but I couldn't remember which. That sounds like a sensible guess to me. Though if so, the interval couldn't have been very long, as Gen and his father are described as "exercising their grief" by fighting about Gen's role as thief (though I'm second-guessing this as I can't find the passage). Unless they were grieving over the grandfather's death, but it seems more like Gen's mother's death is implied.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

IIRC, I think Gen and his dad fought right after his mother's death, then I got the impression there were a series of fights until the "last one" when he tore up his enrollment papers. I assumed they argued this out over a series of years but I certainly could be wrong about that.

Hey! I just realized. There's no mention in the books of Gen's *becoming* the Thief. Is there some sort of swearing-in ceremony, do ya think? Or is it all done in a secret/stealthy way, like other Thief things?

[pigrescuer.livejournal.com]

Lol! I would imagine it was a private thing between the Thief and his Queen. Also, presumably, he became the Thief as soon as his grandfather died, because of the whole thief till you die thing.

[viviolo.livejournal.com]

Wasn't there a small addendum somewhere in QoA that you officially become the Thief after you've stolen something for your ruler? For symbolism, rather than value.

I don't know, maybe my brain is just making things up. :3

[annikah.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can't recall exactly either, even though I just read QoA recently, but I wasn't paying attention to this thread of inquiry. I wouldn't be surprised if it was over a long while that they fought about it. I just wonder when his grandfather started training him, and if this was done in earnest after Gen's mother died? Which would definitely provoke hostility between Gen and his father.

Re, ceremony: hmm... I wonder? One would think it would be 'official,' if it's a life-long title and not necessarily an active role.

[tearoha.livejournal.com]

I had the impression Gen became the official Queen's Thief (as opposed to 'Court Nuisance And Sneak-Thief') by virtue of stealing Hamiathes' gift. Isn't that what cemented both his status and the Queen's? (Especially in the case of Sounis' challenges to her sovereignty)

*tries to think of canon evidence for this*
*fails*

Or I could be accidentally making things up again...

[keestone.livejournal.com]

Considering that Gen goes quiet when he is really hurt, our lack of information could be an argument for your idea. Of course, the loss of his mother would qualify for really hurt either way. But then, would he know she was coming back from dancing on the rooftops if he hadn't been there?

I expect that at the very least he adopted his attitude towards falling and the god of thieves from his mother at least as much as from his grandfather. As you say, "according to legend . . ." and didn't Eddis mention that his Mother was an excellent storyteller in QoA?

[inkasrain.livejournal.com]

Wow, interesting catch-- I wonder if Gen was at the scene. Very, very interesting.

In terms of Gen as a tragic hero, I suppose it depends on how you define the term. He has undeniably suffered quite a lot, whichever way you shake it. But the way I think of it is that the brilliance of Gen is how he makes us forget just how much a part of him the darker/more tragic aspects of his character are. This is one of the reasons I love the rooftop-hopping scene between Gen and Costis-- it combines the humor and the darkness perfectly.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Doesn't it say somewhere that Gen's grandfather died a year before Thief begins, or am I making that up? In a hurry or I'd go check....

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

I would like to learn more about Gen's mother and grandfather also. I've wondered about them for quite a while. Mostly because they are the ones who inspired and encouraged Eugenides, so they've GOT to be interesting people, right?

[pigrescuer.livejournal.com]

I hope he wasn't on the roof when his mother slipped. Poor dear.

Do we know whether or not his mother was alive when Eddis became Queen? Because she became Queen when he was 10. Interesting...?

[viviolo.livejournal.com]

Oooh, that does make a lot of sense... I mean, how else would Gen know that she slipped trying to come in through the window specifically, unless someone witnessed it? (And it was probably him, he has terrible luck with these sorts of things. Poor Gen.)

I've always wondered about their family dynamics! How did Gen's mother and father get to know each other? I would love some insight into THAT courtship process. :D

[themaskedpostit.livejournal.com]

You make an interesting point. It always amazes me how little we actually know about Gen. Or any of the others, for that matter. I'm hoping that we'll get some more background information as the series unfolds.

It wouldn't surprise me if Gen was there, though. He does seem pretty tight-lipped about the whole thing and that usually means that there's a lot more to the story than he wants to tell. It does paint the rooftop scene with him and Costis in a different light, though.

You're reminding me how much I need to reread these books. XD

[kulai-raito.livejournal.com]

man i always thought sounis is full of in depth analysis thinkers!! you guys are so intuitive!! and that why i love it here!
good point! only one person knows that answer the best, but i don't think its going to be address in the books, unless like their kids ask Gen XD or Eddis tells the Magus one dayy...

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Whoa.
I now have Gen's mom on my brain... I think it's time to pull out the ol' fanfic writing maddness again.

I am very interested in the idea of Gen being at the scene... I wonder...

My opinions on timeline:
1) Gen's mom died when he was ten years old (canon)
2) Gen's mom died before his grandfather - otherwise the title would have gone to her (my own crazy assumptions)
3) Eddis took the throne at age 14 (again, my own assumptions, but it comes from a lot of in depth character analyzing about ages in an earlier post)
4) Gen is four years younger than Eddis - his mom would have died the year Eddis took the throne (more age analization, and some algebra-fu [that's what my geometry teacher calls logic of any kind.])

From this, I'm going to assume Gen became the 'Thief' in title, if not in practice, only a year or two before TT. He didn't seem very well known outside Eddis, except by Irene... Magus didn't seem to think he was important, at least. He mentioned the 'thief of Eddis' in passing once, but wasn't sure about who he really was.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Ok, I found this: (from Thief, pg 214 of my older copy)

"..."But my mother, you know, was never the Queen's Thief. She died before my grandfather did, and I inherited the title directly from him." "

And in the disney story, Gen is 10. And this:

"...The King of Eddis was ill, and both his sons had died...Breia had insulted not only Gen's mother, who was the daughter of the King's Thief and strictly speaking not a member of a landholding family, but also Gen's father..."

If Gen's mother was dead, the story probably would have mentioned that. Sounds like the Eddis's brothers died first, then her father, then Gen's mother. Wow, all in the same year? That's rough.

[thelasteddis.livejournal.com]

Well, there was a plauge... that accounted for most of the deaths.

[(Anonymous)]

And by the time of the short story about Eddis as a child, she would loose three brothers, two older and one younger, before she became the last Eddis predicted by the gods.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I forgot about all those brothers! AND her mother, right? Her mother is mentioned in the Eddis short story, so she was alive then. But after that--in QoA--I only remember mentions of a sister and an aunt.