Quinalums and lethium

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

What are the Community theories surrounding Heiro's visit to Gen after his attack by the assassins and before the nightmare?  When I first read it, I assumed she brought the quinalums, at Gen's request, so he could spike his own lethium.  Now I'm not so sure.  What else might they have discussed?


And later, the queen accepts Petrus, the court physician, did not spike the lethium.  After the Dr leaves:

"You trust him?" she asked. ...
"I know something you don't," the king told her.
"Who put the quinalums in the lethium?"
"That too."

"that too" - What else does Gen know besides who put the quinalums in the lethium???

Comments

[willow-41z.livejournal.com]

I always thought he was referring to the whole situation with Sejanus, as well as the fact that the quinalums hadn't actually caused the nightmares. And maybe Gen had some quinalums stashed away for some reason or other anyway-- he had to have been setting this up for a while.

[(Anonymous)]

he had to have been setting this up for a while.

I agree. Gen's nightmares seem to be a bit unpredictable, so it makes sense he would have the quinalums available on an "as needed" basis. So what was he discussing with Heira then, that made her such a good friend?

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

sorry - that was me. Forgot to log in.

[rowana.livejournal.com]

I wrote out a whole comment and livejournal deleted it. :(

Anyway, I agree with Willow about the quinalums.

About Heiro, interesting idea, I'd never considered the possibility that she might have brought him the quinalums. But when would he have asked her to bring them along? He couldn't have forseen his injury. But you're right, there must have been something more to their conversation. I'm not sure what though. Anyone else have any ideas?

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Ok, here's what I think. Gen put quinalums in the lethium himself, but never took any. He just wanted it found there. It hadn't occurred to me that Heiro might have brought it to him, but that makes sense.

When Heiro came to visit Gen while he was in bed, I think she told him everything Sejanus and her sister were planning and that Sejanus was behind the assassination attempt. Gen didn't want anyone to know where he got the information from, so he made up the stuff about Sejanus putting doctoring the lethium. On pg. 236 of KoA Gen says Sejanus was on the balcony directing the assassins. Dite asks, "But you had no proof?" and Gen says, "None that I wanted to bring into the light of day."

I think he was protecting Heiro.

This is all just speculation, though.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

that's a very good theory.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

"None that I wanted to bring into the light of day."

I had noted that passage as well, but didn't connect it to Heiro. That makes a lot of sense.

[avian-xj.livejournal.com]

I agree that he was protecting Heiro.

I think that Gen put the quinalums in the lethium himself after he had Heiro bring them to him. Gen didn't have to take the quinalums to have nightmares - he had them all the time. He framed Sejanus, but because Sejanus couldn't prove that he didn't do it, it was his word against Gen's. Because Sejanus wasn't particularly well liked, and because Gen was king, Gen won.

Heiro took a risk in helping Gen. If he had not won, she could have been accused of drugging the lethium. She may also have been the one who saw Sejanus directing the assassins, and if he found out, that also would've had consequences. She had to trust Gen alot to chance all that.

...supposing that is what happened. I could be completely wrong. :P

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

after he had Heiro bring them to him

That's what I thought the first two times I read the book - now I'm not so sure. I think her tipping Gen off re: Sejanus-as-the-director-of-assassins is a good theory.

[rowana.livejournal.com]

Yes, that does seem to make sense. :)

[willow-41z.livejournal.com]

How would Hero have known, though? And how could Eugenides not have known? He knows everything.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Well, Heiro's father and sister were involved in the plan with Baron Erondites. Maybe she heard it from them. But, now that I think about it, the Baron wasn't involved in the assassination attempt. He thought Sejanus was going to be the main attendant, and Heiro's sister the mistress. So, hmmm, how could Heiro have known, now that I think about it.

Very good question, Detective Willow.

[hemisofia.livejournal.com]

I think Gen mentioned he himself saw Sejanus himself at the balcony but he didn't realize Sejanus was there to direct the assasins until they attacked.

But it would have been Gen's word vs Sejanus' word if it ever come to pass, and you are right that Gen wanted to keep Heiro out of it as much as possible.

I am still ambivalent about Heiro bringing Gen the quinalums. (I probably need to reread.) When did Gen have the chance to ask her to do this for him? I think Heiro came to tell him about the conspiracy and only then Gen probably decided to spike his own lethium OR he had always had the spiked lethium ready for the next chance of him getting a nightmare. I wouldn't be surprised if he had.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Very well said.

[rowana.livejournal.com]

I think Heiro came to tell him about the conspiracy and only then Gen probably decided to spike his own lethium OR he had always had the spiked lethium ready for the next chance of him getting a nightmare. I wouldn't be surprised if he had.

I agree, I hadn't thought of either scenario, but they both sound plausible.

[sandtree.livejournal.com]

Wow, I just finished reading that part... what a coincidence. The theories on this thread are great.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Every time you read "Who put the quinilums in the lethium?" does anyone else...?

[willow-41z.livejournal.com]

Hehe, yeah. It reminds me of a certain song... that's going to get stuck in my head now...

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Yes! It reminds me of a song but for the life of me I can't think of what it is. It's been driving me nuts. What is it?

[willow-41z.livejournal.com]

"Who put the bop in the bop-she-bop-she-bop, who put the ram in the rama-lama-ding dong? Who put the dip in the dip-da-dip-da-dip? Who was that man, I'd like to shake his hand, he made my baby fall in love with me!"

That's the one I was thinking of. Pure evil, really.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

Oh man. Now I've got the Bop-she-bop going through my head ...

Pure evil indeed!

[willow-41z.livejournal.com]

Or I suppose it could be "Who let the dogs out", but that's more modern.

[fabricalchemist.livejournal.com]

Quinalums and Lethium, Quinalums and Lethium, Quinalums and Lethium with a baseball bat

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Hee hee. No, none of that is it. It's like a chant we used to do in girl scouts or something.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Ok, I got it.

Who put the quinalums in the lethium?
Sejanus put the quinalums in the lethium.
Who, me? Yes, you.
Couldn't be. Then who?

Continue ad nauseum, using everyone's names.

[avian-xj.livejournal.com]

ahhhhhhh! I remember that!

[rowana.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, the cookie jar song! We ued to sing that in Brownies. *reminisces*

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

That one certainly fits the situation!

[hemisofia.livejournal.com]

It took me a 2nd reading to get what Gen was saying too. I really love this particular dialogue, because I think it was the first time we get an indication in KoA Gen was definitely into something.

[anon8.livejournal.com]

Hmm, interesting, I never thought of Heiro's favor to Gen as bringing the quinalums...only, when would Gen have had time to ask her? I just assumed that Gen told her she was a good friend because she, being somewhat timid by nature, was bold enough to come visit him, and be pleasant company, as opposed to all those boring politician types that wanted to visit him for their own motives.

The "know something that you don't," I had always thought it was the fact that Sejanus and Dite were really close. Everyone thought the brothers hated each other, but it was the contrast, between Sejanus's true concern for his brother versus what the court thought, that Gen as able to play upon and make the whole strategy work. Just my theory.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I'll admit that the scene between Gen, Sejanus and the attendants was the weakest part of the book for me. I didn't get it at all the first time I read it, and the second time it bothered me that Gen had created trumpted-up charges against Sejanus rather than charging him with what he actually did. We don't learn until later that Sejanus had stood on the balcony directing the assassins and I thought Gen had Sejanus jailed for something he hadn't done. The pleasure I would have gotten watching him destroy the House of Erondites was dimmed a little because I didn't know why Gen had done something so deceptive as poisoning the lethium then forcing Sejanus to confess to it.

OTOH, by forcing the situation before Sejanus could make another attempt or Erondites could put his plan with the mistress into play, Gen resolved it with no one dead and with Dite, who was a pretty good guy, happy in his exile as music master. I suppose he resolved it about as well as it could have been.

By showing us a bit of all three Erondites as they faced their destruction I felt a little bad for them, and it gave me a taste of what Gen must feel as king, making hard decisions that hurt others.

[hemisofia.livejournal.com]

I actually like this scene a lot. I thought it was quite a climactic scene that reveals the Gen that we know from the previous books is truly still there - and he hasn't turned into the pathetic king everyone thought he was.

I must admit I didn't understand it the first time I read it, but what Gen said in the end to Sejanus was revealing enough: that he was doing this to destroy the Erondites House because it was too powerful. I thought it was reason enough. Plus, we know Sejanus hasn't been exactly the good guy before.

I think you are right in saying Gen tried to avoid killing anyone because he hates it, and the only way to destroy the House besides killing everyone in it is to politically exile them with valid reasons.