"My Queen"

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Hello everyone,

I just finished re-reading QoA yet again, and I have some random obvservations and a big (okay, big in my mind, probably not so big to y'all!) question. I'm sure these things have been discussed before, but I thought people wouldn't mind visiting QoA again. :)

Random thoughts:
1) Thinking about how Irene's feelings for Gen evolve, I thought there is a bit of a leap between having feelings of remorse for having sunk so low as to torture someone and having romantic feelings towards that person. It could be seen as sadistic and yet I don't think it is. Do you think she had some liking for him already, before the torture (even though she would have never known consciously herself)? It was her "favourite" amphora that she broke, not just any fairly nice amphora! :-P And she did have the box made for the earrings, and, as far as we know, kept the truth of those a secret (didn't call her attendants or guards to berate them for failing their duty!).

2) I get the impression she reaches for his love and forgiveness with some desperation ("you would offer him only to draw him away?"). I think of all the things that are extraordinary about Eugenides, it's his heart and his ability to forgive that is the most amazing, and that is really what the story is about (at least for me), even though it's hardly mentioned at all. This trait is obvious in the way he treats Relius in KoA, and in hindsight it makes all of QoA and the romance more believable to me. QoA *could* come across as making light of torture, but I think instead it's a testament to the amazing power of love and forgiveness.

3) the thought of him leaving the earrings on her bedside table (while she sleeps?): it could be seen as a little creepy (but considering what she does to him later I'll hardly call it the most messed up thing about them)... but mostly it strikes me as very sad and lonely. I expect that's the only way he could have gotten near her. Reminds me of Costis in KoA taking "a liberty few would be able to" by observing Gen asleep. (And then of course Gen leaves the earrings there so she'll *know* he's taken that liberty). He obviously was aware of his feelings towards her, but I wonder if he imagined himself in the role of king at that point?

4) The scene on pp. 316 of queen-holding-hook-book: finally got the joke!! When he woke up and looked at her, Attolia felt like she was "transparent" to him --I think she was, just a little, i.e. a hint of her love/recent grief must have shown on her face. Then he tested her with the jibe about mistresses, and she TOTALLY rose to the bait! Then she got it and blushed and called him a poisonous snake. Hahahahaha why am I so slow? (at least Eddis didn't get it either!)

5) My question is about the last scene. I love the last scene and I love Gen and Irene together, after having read KoA, and I've re-read them all many times, but somehow on this re-read I found myself questioning their relationship more and finding it less believable as it exists in this book (I will probably feel different when I re-read KoA again). I think some of the crux of my problem is in crucial last scene when Irene asks "Who am I, that you should love me?" and his answer is, "You are My Queen." This has always been an underwhelming response for me and surprisingly it still struck me that way. It echoes back to Gen's relationship with Eddis, in the way The Thief ended and in how he took his last leave of Eddis, but I've don't feel the parallel truly clarifies why he loves Irene. Let me try and explain...

When Gen tells Eddis that she is his queen, it's really resonant to their relationship because the love and loyalty Gen feels towards her is, or at least perfectly fits with, the love and loyalty of a vassal to their monarch (Thief to their Queen). After all, in TT, the fact that he loves his queen is his motivation for the entire escapade and the not inconsiderable trouble (not to mention pain) he went through to solidify her throne. (Actually, that's arguably sort of what happens in QoA as well, only it's the gods pulling the strings, not Gen). Someone on Sounis (someone brilliant! sorry I don't remember who :-P) once pointed out that with Eugenides's/Thief role the political and personal are the same thing and that's definitely true between Gen and Eddis. So "My Queen" works perfectly as the ending of The Thief.

But with the Gen/Attolia relationship, I have a hard time seeing how the parallel applies at this point. They aren't married yet and he loves her for who she is inside: the woman, not for the Queenly persona that cut off his hand. If he'd answered "You are Irene" that would have made more sense to me. He isn't her vassal or even her citizen the way he was Eddis's, and her being the Queen isn't a big part of why he loves her, at least how I've understood it.

I'm positive I'm just being slow.  HELP?! How do you all read that line? Did anyone have a similar reaction?

Actually just writing this I'll admit some answers are coming, but I want to wait and hear what you think first. :)

Comments

[bluestalking.livejournal.com]

Oh, nice question! I think...he's moving his primary allegiance to her. If he marries her, he can't just have Eddis's interests in mind. She has to come first. He's basically refuting what Attolia thinks at Ephrata, when Gen looks dead--she thinks that he's not loyal to me. He's saying she's wrong. :)

[heiros-acumen.livejournal.com]

I agree, both with the feeling that the response is a little underwhelming, but also with the idea that her being Queen of Attolia is actually a part of the reason he loves her. I like to think back to the part (I can't remember at all where it is or even which book) when Gen says he questioned whether Attolia really was an evil tyrant or just a woman trying to hold power in a difficult situation and he sent to the Megas for more recent information on her. I think this shows that he's looking not only for her personal humanity but also for her Queen skills, and when he does his research he discovers that she loves her country, which endears her to him.

[keestone.livejournal.com]

Very good point about Gen's ability to forgive. It's pretty remarkable, isn't it?

I'm kind of thinking out loud here, so bear with me... Another remarkable thing about Gen is his devotion. We get that even in The Thief . . . He's pretty young there, and he goes and gets himself clapped in chains and put in a dungeon for the chance he'll be in the right place, remembered, and chosen by the Magus to steal Hamiathes' Gift? Reading through the recovery he needs from being in prison, he spent himself pretty recklessly to keep Eddis from the position of having to marry Sounis.

Two of the things notable in the Queen of Atollia are Irene's isolation, and her jealousy of Helen. In particular, she's jealous of the devotion Helen inspires, and the Thief is completely symbolic of that. And looking back, it's pretty clear from The Thief that Gen knows of her jealousy and uses it against her from the start (Sweetheart comments, beautiful / kind). Again, the thing about the "Beautiful / more kind" comment, is that Gen is pretty much telling her that her isolation is her own fault. (And she wants him symbolically -- the absolute devotion of the Queen's Thief, someone she can trust not to betray her -- long before she really sees the Thief as the fragile young man she could love.)

So when Gen calls her "My Queen", it's not just some sort of transfer of vassalage, it's telling her that she has someone who not only loves and desires her as a person, but that she has someone she can trust her to be absolutely scarily devoted to her (even if he's likely to drive her crazy and turn her court upside down on a whim). And that she isn't just a shadow queen who rules out of fear and tortures young boys, but that she is someone who can inspire that kind of devotion.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

(And she wants him symbolically -- the absolute devotion of the Queen's Thief, someone she can trust not to betray her -- long before she really sees the Thief as the fragile young man she could love.)

I like this point. I hadn't thought of it that way, but that makes a lot of sense. The security he represents for her as the Thief would mean quite a lot to her, and is an interesting way of viewing the problem of whether or not Attolia "liked" Gen without realizing it before deciding to love him. To her, liking could manifest in this way, as an urge to possess the devotion of a useful tool, because having him and his loyalty as the Thief would make her feel safe.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Two of the things notable in the Queen of Atollia are Irene's isolation, and her jealousy of Helen. In particular, she's jealous of the devotion Helen inspires, and the Thief is completely symbolic of that. And looking back, it's pretty clear from The Thief that Gen knows of her jealousy and uses it against her from the start (Sweetheart comments, beautiful / kind). Again, the thing about the "Beautiful / more kind" comment, is that Gen is pretty much telling her that her isolation is her own fault. (And she wants him symbolically -- the absolute devotion of the Queen's Thief, someone she can trust not to betray her -- long before she really sees the Thief as the fragile young man she could love.)

This is excellent context, thanks for pointing out what the loyalty/devotion of someone like Eugenides represents to Irene. That makes a lot of sense actually, seeing as he's saying it to her he'd phrase it in a way that would make sense with what she's been yearning for. Strange how her human wants and needs are sort of symbolized here by the services of a political supporter, essentially, but that it does mean more to her than that.

(just reposted this b/c i didn't close the quote last time)

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

2. Yes, oh yes. Gaaah, I love Gen so much for just this reason. And I think this si something we see primarily in the 2nd and 3rd books, so I'm so happy the series didn't end with The Thief.

Your question: I think that bluestocking made a good point--Irene has trouble believing that anyone could be loyal to her, especially someone whose hand she chopped off. Gen saying that she is his Queen is a way of affirming her. The phrase has a lot of emotional weight throughout the series--think of earlier in QoA when Gen calls Eddis his Queen "perhaps for the last time"* and Teleus calling Attolia his Queen even when he's betrayed her.

I think it also sets up the main conflict for KoA, in a way. At the end of QoA, Gen is assuring Irene of his loyalty, of the fact that she is his queen. But she wants him to be her king too, and for a long time he's not willing to be that, or at least not fully. Huh, I'd never quite thought of it that way.

At any rate, I personally have always been extremely touched by that line, so I was interested to read your reaction.


* This was one of those moments that I read about three times, assuming that it meant he might get killed and only on the fourth reading did I realize that it was also a reference to him becoming Attolis. Oh, sneaky MWT!

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

I actually completely agree with your reaction. That was my reaction too, exactly, and when I saw other people gushing about that line, I knew there must have been something I missed. Even now when other people are explaining it away, I still find it kind of unsatisfactory. I understand that it has its aesthetic purposes. "You are my queen," is a very simple (and for some, poignant) line that can convey many meanings and be interpreted many ways. I mean, I don't expect MWT to have gone on a tangent and had Gen give a Chicken-Soup-For-The-Soul-esque type of confessional.

But I agree with you. I had a hard time reconciling "My Queen" from Gen to Attolia instead of to Eddis, especially on how many times it has been emphasized not only in QoA, but also in The Thief. Very much in The Thief. I remember how I felt after reading the last couple of lines in The Thief and feeling so... so bittersweet about it. It just did not have the same effect in QoA. It was like a let-down, and like you said, underwhelming. I'm not sure if I'd ever be able to completely articulate what I feel wrong about it; maybe it's just that Attolia seems like a substitute? Like Gen realizing that he has to be her husband, he has to live in Attolia now, so might as well just make her his queen. I'm sure it's probably not meant to convey that feeling, but that's how I felt. (And this is really why I don't want those ruby earrings to be Eddis's either.) It's like Gen trying to mold Attolia into what he likes about Eddis, instead of trying to bring out her good qualities that had been long overshadowed by her cruelty.

Anyway, I don't really have an answer to your question, but I can provide a link where you can find many answers: http://community.livejournal.com/sounis/442956.html

It's somewhere near the top of the comments. ^__^

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Yes, you've conveyed the feeling well, I think we must be on the same page, haha.

I think what it is for me... between Gen and Eddis I understand the personal and political relationship and how they are really similar. But with Attolia, the political relationship between them at that moment is murkier and doesn't necessarily reflect their human relationship the way the thief/queen relationship reflects Gen/Helen.

To go on a tangent... The conclusion that was coming to my mind when I was writing above was... well, "my queen" is resonant between Gen and Eddis because vassal/queen reflects how they actually relate to each other. "My queen" wasn't resonating between Gen and Irene for me because I was thinking of that phrase in terms of a vassal talking to his queen, which is the way it's always been used in the series up to that point. But maybe "my queen" is resonant between Gen and Irene because king/queen is how they relate to each other. Maybe Gen is thinking from the vantage point of being her king, not her vassal --not necessarily in terms of the full political ramifications of power that he has to grapple with later in KoA, but just with "king" as it means partner to the queen.

What if he's been thinking of himself in the role of her king (not totally about all the political duties, but just in terms of what that would mean between the two of them) for a long time, and this comes from that place. I think he is definitely pledging loyalty to her here, as drashizu said eloquently below and other people have said too, but... as well as pledging informal loyalty, maybe he's also sort of claiming her in some way. I would read it more that way if they were already married, but he could be identifying with it that way even if he isn't actually her king yet. he's inviting her to claim him as her king, maybe...

I don't know, if I think of it in terms of the king/queen political relationship it seems more equal and sits better with me. Does that change it at all for you?

Thanks for the link, good reading over there...

[chubbyleng.livejournal.com]

Oh, sorry for taking a while to respond to this. It's exam month for me. =/

well, "my queen" is resonant between Gen and Eddis because vassal/queen reflects how they actually relate to each other. "My queen" wasn't resonating between Gen and Irene for me because I was thinking of that phrase in terms of a vassal talking to his queen...

Yeah, that must be it for me too. I just got used to the idea of that phrase within the context between Gen and Eddis, that when it came to confessing the reason for his love for Attolia using those same words, it didn't quite fit. Not only is it in terms of a vassal, but it didn't have the romantic connotation that I felt was needed at that point.

And I was thinking that perhaps another reason why I found it so underwhelming was that I had to think about it. I mean, with MWT's books, thinking about things is usually the way to unlock most of the treasures, and I definitely don't have anything against thinking about her stories. But at that point in time, I felt like what I needed was some epiphany to make me go "Oh. THAT'S why he loves her.", that will make me feel fireworks and loss of gravity. But instead I get a four word answer, and I didn't exactly know what it meant. I didn't know why it was so important to Attolia. When I reread the book, she definitely had her fair share of "my queens" from guards and servants. And I was thinking of her as "Irene" in that scene, not a queen, which made me wonder, how would Gen's feelings for her change had she not been this cruel and lonely queen?

I like the king/queen concept of the phrase though. I certainly didn't think of it that way either. I always had it in mind that Gen had not thought about being a king, even when it comes to Attolia; lover maybe? But it seems to work. Lol, sort of. ^^

maybe he's also sort of claiming her in some way

Ooh, I like this even better. Hahaha.

T__T. Aww man, sorry for the rant. I feel like I'm hijacking your thread. Anyway, I guess I better go back to studying. ^^

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

I agree with what some people have said above, on point 5. When he says "You are my Queen," he is basically making a promise to love her. He is alluding to the kind of promise a vassal makes in terms of love and loyalty, but in this case it's more symbolic than literal. After all, soon he'll be her king, not her vassal. But that's part of why his calling her "his queen" is meaningful to the two of them: it *isn't* literally true. He's lowering himself before her, in a sense, by promising this love and loyalty that is normally associated with vassals, even though he doesn't have to. He was lower than she was the last time they met, and she hurt him; now, he's telling her that he trusts her enough to put himself in her power again, but this time willingly. And that means a lot to her, because she normally has to hurt and threaten people to keep her power over them. He's giving her this power voluntarily, and it's that more than anything else that I see as a testament to how much he loves her, *as a person*.

It also reminds me of the link drawn between Eddis and Attolia in The Thief, which is echoed a couple times in Queen of Attolia. In the scene where they first met, Gen tells Attolia that he has a sweetheart (read: queen that he is loyal to) who is less beautiful but more kind. This hurts her. In a way, during this last scene of QoA, he's reassuring her that it isn't true anymore. Attolia may still be less kind than Eddis, but she is "his queen" now. She is not less worthy of his love than Eddis is, nor less of a person. He is reassuring her that what he sees inside her is valuable to him and that he is capable of loving her for who she is.

Finally, I think that this line is necessary to mark the complete transference of Eugenides's emotional loyalty from Helen to Irene. Not that he isn't still loyal to Helen as her cousin and friend, but he couldn't proclaim his love for Irene while still considering Helen to be "his queen." We need this line to show that he is ready to be devoted to Attolia. I think this is the primary purpose of that line, frankly.

[magicsandwiches.livejournal.com]

Well said!

[queenofattolia.livejournal.com]

Very well put.

However, when Eugenides tells Attolia, "You are my Queen," to me he means, quite simply, "You are everything to me." It has the resonance of a heartfelt confession and the brevity of an epiphany. With that simple declaration, he wins her trust and love completely.

It is a perfect demonstration of MWT's superb (and subtle) writing skills. She absolutely kills me.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Oooooh.

I like that interpretation. "You are everything to me." It's short and sweet and sums up the sentiment so neatly. (And the last paragraph needs no confirmation, of course.)

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Finally, I think that this line is necessary to mark the complete transference of Eugenides's emotional loyalty from Helen to Irene. [...] We need this line to show that he is ready to be devoted to Attolia. I think this is the primary purpose of that line, frankly.

Good point, and I agree. I do get that it indicates a transferal of his loyalty, very overtly, from Helen to Irene. And on top of that, the idea that he's reassuring her that he's no longer comparing her unfavorably to Helen. Yes.

Maybe that's why I find it unsatisfying, because it's a line that's trying to do a lot of things at once, both answer the question and show how his loyalty's changed. It does show how his loyalty's changed, but for me that doesn't answer the question. I don't know... maybe I need to think about it more.

I'm not sure I like the idea that Eugenides is sort of lowering himself before her, because I really want them to be equal and I'm feeling very sensitive to any inequality between them, lol. But I know you're saying just on a symbolic level, that that could be part of it... yes. And it's true she did just renounce all sorts of things like her lip service to other gods, etc, which is quite humble of her. Hehe.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

This is a good point--that they have humbled themselves before one another, but I didn't see it as Eugenides lowering himself in any way. They are having their first truly honest conversation with one another and facing what she did to him. Irene has just told him that she loves him and would give up anything to keep him. So, she's lowered herself first. What he admits is slightly different--that he will not ask her to give up her country, but he will give his up and come there with her as his queen. Seems pretty equal to me.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree, I don't want them to be unequal in their relationship. I think if there's any sort of imbalance of power it would go very badly for them in the long run. In this case, I just meant it as a momentary, symbolic thing, like you said. It was more about the fact that he's putting himself in a position where she would be capable of hurting him again, more emotionally than anything else, in order to demonstrate his trust in her.

And I think that interpretation is basically a reader-centric one, anyway---that is, I think it's pretty much imaginary. It has to be "pulled out" of the text, rather than existing there in any substantial form, intended by the author. (Not to speak for MWT, or anything...)

As for the whole question-answer thing... "Who am I, that you should love me?" --- "You are my Queen." You know, poetic as it is, it doesn't really answer the question, does it?

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

5. This might be overly simple, but I read it as his promise to Attolia - that he isn't interested in her for her country, that he won't challenge her rule. Not only because he didn't want to rule but because most of her barons tried to marry her for that very reason.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I agree with all this, and would add that by telling Irene she is his Queen, Gen is saying that he is willing to give up everything he has, and has ever wanted--his position as Thief, his relationships with those he loves, his home, his country--all for her. So, it's not just his loyalty and devotion but much more.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

1. I saw Gen and Attolia as a possible couple during their small exchange in TT, whether it was intended or not. Besides everything else going on with her, I don't doubt that she may have had a small crush (perhaps one that had gone unrealized) on him :-)

(I'll get to the rest later--exams tommorow! wish me luck =P)

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Good luck! :D

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

...in hindsight it makes all of QoA and the romance more believable to me. QoA *could* come across as making light of torture, but I think instead it's a testament to the amazing power of love and forgiveness.

Excellent! This is what I'm always trying to get everyone to understand! QoA is about amazing forgiveness and love. Not about torture being romantic!

Well, he means she's the queen of his heart. Duh... :D No, really... I basically agree with Blue. He is indicating that his primary loyalty has shifted. AKA: his way of saying, "I love you, shortcake, and I'll be your slave forever!" Or something like that...

I can understand how that can be confusing, but it's not the alluded scene from TT that is really important, it's the different circumstances of this scene in QoA. Basically, Gen is in love with Irene and not Helen, which we know at this point. I might also point out Irene's difficulty with trust. "My Queen" indicates to her that he will be as loyal to her as he has been to Helen. Since she appears to believe him, this moment is full of earth-shaking progress for Gen/Irene, especially since she has been trying to convince herself that he is deluded for like two chapters.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

agree with all the above on 'My Queen'^^

<3

#3 I don't think Gen ever saw himself with the role of King, until After getting his hand chopped, and in saving Eddis AND Attolia he found no other option. King Of Attolia very much shows us Gen's surprise and shock at what he's basically gotten himself into, I don't think he ever considered it, even. In fact, as a thief who can basically do whatever he wants, I'm sure he had envisioned prettier pictures about himself and Irene ;-)

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

<3 - <3 - <3

Maybe, he did envisioned her moving into his library. Books, coffee, and the love of your life--who could ask for more? :D

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

<3 <3 (two time lord hearts ;-)

Definitely! He probably even wrote her a little note,

"Dear Irene Her Majesty Attolia,

I was wondering if you would like to come visit my library, sometime. I know you're busy dealing with your barons, spies and of course, the Mede. Especially, the Mede. But we could elope...well, you know you would do the eloping. Eddis is really nice, we have trees. And Eddis, my cousin isn't bad either, once you get past her tasteless sense of style...

bet you anything Magus found it in the trash ;-P

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

Hahahaha, YES! Awesome.

The Magus would have raised his eyebrows for sure!

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

<3 <3 (two time lord hearts

:D

Daahaahaa! He should've signed it, your almost-stalker.

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

Wha ha ha ha. Oh man.:)

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

In fact, as a thief who can basically do whatever he wants, I'm sure he had envisioned prettier pictures about himself and Irene ;-)

Hahahahah.

"Dear Irene,
Why don't you wake up, and we could have nice times together? I could show you how to climb down the walls of your own palace, and we could go back to my library in Eddis! Or, we could hang out right here! ;) I could take you boating!

Oh wait, you're the queen of a rival country, if you woke up you would probably have me killed. *sigh* Guess I'll just go, then... Here are some earrings..."

:( poor Gen!

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

How could that be tldr???

1) I don't think "like", even subconsciously, is the right word for how she felt about him, but I think he had definitely caught her attention and that her subconscious feelings might have been more like "attracted" or "intrigued."

3) YES to all the feelings. Probably no to the king thing. Perhaps stealing her away to live in Eddis's library. :p

4)May need to get back to you on this after reading the other comments, which I forgot to do, and checking in the book, and why am I commenting without doing those things first?...

5) Yes, that has always been a little huh? to me. Like, cool, but also ? And, whether we're supposed to or not, I just refuse to read it as, "I'm ditching Eddis for you!"

I read it more like, "You are the center of my life."

Not a political queen.

Not, "I love you for this specific reason, and if it changed, I wouldn't love you anymore," which is sort of what any real answer to the question would have implied.

More like, "I'm just crazy for you, okay?"

But in this I am very much aware that I am choosing meanings that sit well with me more than I am looking for clues in the text, which is a little bit naughty and not what I usually like to do. I'm seeing this as a parallel turned sideways. A perpendicular.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

"I'm just crazy for you, okay?"

Haha, yes! I like this one. I should write it in the margins...

However I look at it, it works best for me if he's already thinking from the pov of a king. Then "you're my queen" is basically "you're my partner/you're my love."

It still comes down to "why do you love me?" "Well, basically because I love you." Not a very illuminating answer, but hey, maybe love's like that?
The problem is, at that point in the story, I'm legitimately desperate for an answer. Most of the times I read it, anyway.

[hazelwillow.livejournal.com]

*I mean, "I feel that way during most of my re-reads of the book, not all of them, depending how much I've been imagining in stuff on my own."

[stubefied-by-gd.livejournal.com]

A slightly better answer is when he tells someone, Eddis, I think, about how Irene was like a princess in a tower with the walls getting higher or thicker each day and he just had to rescue her - partly for the challenge, yes, but there was clearly just something about her that called to him, so that he could see that she, deep inside, wanted to be rescued even when people physically much closer to her could not. The sort of thing only people who are made for each other can have.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Ah, that is another way of thinking of it. If he is king and she is his queen, it would mean more like "you are my wife/lover." Excellent!