CoK ending questions

[m-chant.livejournal.com]

Hi, I'm totally new here and not completely sure what I'm doing...hopefully I'm creating a new entry.
So I just finished CoK and I'm so confused...

1. "He had been saved by the men Eugenides sent, though he did not yet know the ferocity with which the king of Attolia had stripped those men from other posts, the capital he had expended, the secrets that had been revealed in order to send help to Sounis. BUT SOPHOS HAD TO KNOW THAT SHE AND EUGENIDES HAD LET HIM RIDE AWAY WITH AN ATTOLIAN ARMY AT HIS BACK, BELIEVING HE NEEDED IT. WITH MORE FAITH IN HIMSELF, AND HIS FATHER'S ARMY, HE COULD HAVE RETAKEN HIS THRONED WITHOUT ATTOLIA'S AID. HE MIGHT NOT HAVE FOLLOWED THAT BLOODIER AND MORE COSTLY PATH, BUT EDDIS AND ATTOLIS HADN'T OFFERED HIM THE CHOICE."

The bold is where I feel like a complete vegetable. I don't understand it at ALL. Can someone parse this for me? I thought Sophos didn't know there was an army behind his back...

And then, later:

2. ""Well, I wasn't looking forward to it," said Sounis caustically. "But over our dead bodies the Medes would never have been accepted by the people of Sounis. Much more likely that they would have allied with Attolia." He looked at Eugenides, who was still eyeing him in surprise. "I didn't expect to die", he said. "I knew you would send help"
"Why?"
It was Sounis's turn to be surprised. He said, "You told me you needed me to be Sounis. I am. I needed my king to send me help. You did. There had to be reinforcements at Oneia, so they were there." To him it was obvious.
Eugenides swallowed. "I see"

I just don't understand the thread of this argument. What do Sounis' first two sentences mean? And why is Gen surprised?
And then, "It was Sounis's turn to be surprised"....Why is Sounis surprised?
And what is so obvious? I really don't understand Sophos's last statement. Is this supposed to be a show of complete faith in their friendship or something? And if so, why does Gen swallow? Is it not obvious to him? That last line bothers me...even if I don't understand what precedes it.

Please enlighten me. Sorry if this is a reiteration of others' questions.

Comments

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Welcome! Great questions!

(2) Sophos means he wasn't looking forward to dying. Gen is a bit disconcerted by Sophos's will to die in order to stop the Mede from getting a foothold in the tri-countries. Sophos is surprised because Gen didn't have the same faith that he did about the situation, considering his connection to the gods. Sophos had faith in both Gen and the gods. They needed him to be Sounis and so they sent help. Duh... XD In other words, Sophos is just a bit crazy! Which is why Gen swallows uncomfortably.

I'll get back to you on #1. And this thread should help.

http://sounis.livejournal.com/462130.html#cutid1

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

(1) The previous line goes "... it was as close as he would come to an accusation." And the part about "...believing he needed it." meant Attolis and Eddis made him believe he needed their help, so he would pledge his country to Attolia.

Remember that there were two armies? Gen sent an initial army to Sounis and sent reinforcements later. This section is all about the complex political games they were playing in order to secure control of Sounis, even if it meant pushing Sophos down the bloody path of murder. They weren't being his friends in this situation, but rather the leaders of their countries.

Sophos probably could have won the initial battle and have avoided getting captured. Attolis and Eddis didn't give him the choice.

(2) I should also clarify that Gen is a bit disconcerted by Sophos's faith in him and Sophos's faith in general. Gen doesn't have nearly that much confidence or conviction in himself or those around him. It's not the nature of his personality. Sophos is just a little more simple that way. I needed them so they were there, and either way, the Mede would have been driven out because my people would never accept a country who murdered their king and his army! Sophos's convictions are just a little amusing, in a way.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

The other thing about (2) is Sophos's faith in Gen, not just as his friend, but as his king. It means he's taking that new relationship very seriously, which puts a lot of responsibility on Gen. And we all know how much he loves being responsible!

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Absolutely! This serves to make Gen even more uncomfortable, because now he has someone he really cares about depending on him! Poor guy...

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

Sophos has such hero worship that when I read this I read him as having faith in Gen as a personification of a god and not just a king. Whoa! Gulp!

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

I also took #2 to mean that Gen suspected the gods were at play, since that "it had to be there, so it was because I needed it" thing has a very mythical ring to it. So there's Gen again, who suspects the gods might be doing "favors" for him again, this time by messing with his friend's faith in him.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

As ususal everyone has answered the question with a lot more articulation that I could manage *yay*

So I'm just here to say, Welcome :)

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

<3 - <3 - <3

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

*glomps*

<3 <3 (two timelord hearts xx)

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I'm probably the only person here who hasn't re-read yet *ducks*, but if I recall correctly (probably don't), Gen, Eddis, and Attolia all tricked Sophos into believing he needed Attolia's army to retake his throne, when he actually didn't really. And that was almost the whole army he sent with him. He had had to scrounge to get them all.
And yes, then the grand plan was of course one of those plans that could have gone all wrong very easily, so Gen probably freaked out ("swallowed") when Sophos was so matter-of-fact about it. I think. Maybe. I am starting to get really anxious to re-read now.

Hey! Welcome! You did just fine, and we all like to hash these things out over and over again, so perfect!

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I'm probably the only person here who hasn't re-read yet
This was exactly what I was thinking! *glomps*

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Same here, can we do a reread together?

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

That could be fun! When would you want to do it? (I'm for real; I've been meaning to reread. Actually, I want to do the whole series again).

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Welcome! Great questions.

1. I agree with what's been said, plus Gen and Eddis pushed Sophos into accepting their help to gain control over Sounis (that sounds so cold--merge the powers of the three countries?) although Sophos probably could have gained control of Sounis through a bloody civil war, instead. If he'd had enough faith in himself to be a strong leader along with the help of his father's army.

2. I agree with msmcknittington--I thought Sophos assumed that the reinforcements would be there because the gods would make it so, through Eugenides. Gen doesn't like this because of the uncomfortable favorite-of-the-gods thing, plus what a huge burden on Gen--to live up to Sophos' faith in him. I've said this very poorly, but I hope my idea has come across.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

the uncomfortable favorite-of-the-gods thing

That's him precisely! xD

[m-chant.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you! I understand #2 now!
But #1 still eludes me. So, to my understanding, Eddis, Gen, and Attolia all conspired against him so that he'd swear Sounis to Gen--yes? So that Eddis would also have to swear loyalty to marry, and therefore have an official reason to relocate her people? Why couldn't Eddis and Sophos marry without Gen's permission? I honestly don't understand why Eddis has to marry Sounis (the uncle or Sophos) in order to save her people...Man, I don't understand what the ultimate goal of Gen et al is! Is it to be unified and have Gen as annux? Or is it to save the country of Eddis from the eruption? Help.
And also, in the end, Sounis did end up needing Gen's troops, didn't he? How else could he have survived 10,000 Medes? "Believing he needed it"--who's doing the believing? Sophos or Gen and Eddis?

Man, I don't know about you guys, but I felt incredibly sad after this book. Especially with the mystery of Gen's health. I always expected Gen to come out on top, especially after his performance in KoA. But now I'm not so sure that MWT won't kill him off...Even if it is heroic. I want to end this series grinning, not crying.

[ladyelysia.livejournal.com]

But now I'm not so sure that MWT won't kill him off...
DDD: I think I died a little bit when I read that.

[m-chant.livejournal.com]

Haha, sorry. I had another thought just now, rereading The Thief. Eugenides, the god, tells Gen that he has 'not yet' offended the gods (except Aracthus); later, Gen says that he was a thief, not 'yet' a murderer (when he doesn't kill the ostlers whose horses he steals). I wonder if Gen will offend the gods in the future...I hope not.

[kaeyko.livejournal.com]

Sounis can't marry Eddis without Gen's permission because he is essentially Gen's... vassal. A very politically powerful vassal in this sense. Their original agreement involved Sounis swearing some loyalty to Attolis - this means that Sounis won't try to turn against Attolis. In exchange, Attolis allows Sounis to maintain political autonomy in his country and military protection. This ends the war between Sounis and Attolia, since Sounis has conceded by agreeing to be subordinate to Attolis.

Now, there are very big political consequences for Sounis to marry Eddis. Eddis is a sovereign in her own right, with her own political, economic, and social power. If Sounis marries her without the approval of Attolis, it is also an opportunity for a Sounis-Eddis alliance against Attolia. Sounis can't marry just anyone, if it create an alliance that threatens Attolia. This is why Sounis needs permission from Gen in order to marry Eddis.

This is why Gen suggests that Sounis can marry Eddis if Eddis also becomes subordinate to Attolis, because it means that Eddis does not have the authority to stand against him.

Of course, Eddis has her own ulterior motives for marrying Sounis and also agreeing to be Attolis's vassal. One, is that she knows the Hephestial Mountain will erupt one day and turn Eddis into ash. She wants to save her people and Gen knows that her charisma alone will be enough to make her people move if she gives up her sovereignty. Her reasons for not simply doing so sooner by marrying the former Sounis (Sophos's uncle) appears to be because she wants Eddis to join Sounis under terms favourable to Eddis, not Sounis. The previous books remark upon how the former Sounis's ideological standpoint would not be favourable to Eddis, which is why Eddis and Eugenides resisted him for so long. They don't like those terms. That's why they ended up going the roundabout way of forming an alliance with Attolia (with ulterior motives again, this time, Eugenides's own) first, rather than with Sounis.


Eddis and Eugenides set up Sounis to believe that he did need their help, they knew he could have done it without them if only he had the confidence. Instead, they undermined his ability to trust and rely on his few allies - the Magus, his father, among the few - and the use of other solutions and alliances he could have formed instead.

By forcing him to shed blood, they've forces him to join their side, because they've have forced him into a situation where he could not find the alternative. That alternative might have taken longer, forced Sounis to suppress the civil war in his country before tackling the war against Attolia, and ended things on his own. Sounis might not have had to face 10 000 Mede troops. In fact, with enough political saavy, he could have manipulated them as Attolia did. Sounis never gets to see the alternative, so he ends up going down the path that results in him needing those troops from Attolis.

But Eddis and Eugenides didn't want the possibility for Sounis to establish him in a position where they wouldn't be able to create circumstances that would be favourable to Eddis and Attolia.

[m-chant.livejournal.com]

This would make total sense to me, if they weren't friends. I mean, what threat could a Sounis-Eddis alliance possibly be if Sophos and Eddis are Gen's good friend and close cousin? Ugh, I just don't see why they couldn't have been like, "Oh, yea, my uncle's dead now. I'm king. Let's just stop this war", instead of surrendering, and then have a three-way alliance. Why would any of them threaten any other?

[kaeyko.livejournal.com]

Well, it's a matter of seperating personal interests from professional ones in a sense.

The fact that Eddis and Eugenides love Sounis, because he is their friend, that makes them feel guilty for manipulating him. What they've done is put national interests first, not friendship.

If it were just a matter of friendship, no, they would never attack each other. But they have the responsibility of ruling their countries and they can't just do things and be all nice because they are friendly on a personal level. Let say the trade between Eddis and Attolia means turning their backs on Sounis. It's great for the people of Eddis and Attolia, but it sucks for the people of Sounis because they're going to lose out of something as a result of this alliance. (Sorry I can't put it more concretely.)

Sounis has a responsibility to his people to ensure that they don't suffer because of this alliance. If this means declaring war to prevent this alliance so that his people don't suffer, he needs to do this, sadly, even if it means destroying Eddis and Eugenides in the process. As a king, he is not just responsible for his own actions as a individual, but also as a king who is accountable for his entire nation.

This is why Eugenides can't simultaneously be loyal to both Eddis, who is his cousin, and Attolia. By marrying Attolia, even if it was for love, he must take the responsibility of ensuring that Attolia the country survives.

Remember how Sounis makes that plea to Attolia, where he's telling her that he isn't her enemy like his uncle? And then Eugenides answers him by saying "The easiest way to end a war is to admit you've lost it." This is the heart of the issue and something that poor Sounis doesn't realize at that point.

Sounis is thinking in terms of himself as a individual, not himself as a king who must be accountable for the state of his country. No, he's not his uncle. Attolia knows this. Unfortunately, Sophos is not just Sophos, he is Sounis. Whether he likes it or not, as Sounis, he has inherited his predecessor's legacy and he is responsible for the direction his country will now take. He's responsible for thousands of people who are not going to be happy with a simple "Let's stop fighting because we're friends. Let's form an alliance."

There are thousands of people in Sounis and Attolia who aren't going to accept that - they will want someone to accept responsibility for everything that has happened in that war. Hundreds of people died, infrastructure has been destroyed, tons of resources, money, expended. Yes, the people want war to end and order to be restored, but they will want reparations for all their suffering and resources in order to rebuild what they've lost. Somebody needs to be accountable for all this and Sounis, as a monarch, must realize that he is accountable all those consequences.


This is why an Sounis-Eddis alliance is a threat if they aren't subordinate to Attolis. Being king isn't a matter of just saying so and people going, "Of course, Your Majesty," and reluctantly agreeing. Sounis and Attolia both had to struggle to get their barons to do as they say. And that was just within their countries to end civil war.

Imagine what happens when all the barons of Sounis agree that they don't want to surrender to Attolia because it's going to hurt their entire country? Sounis might have his kingsmen (soldiers under his direct command) and some foreign alliances and monetary resources, but against his entire country, with all his barons and their own private forces against him, there's a good chance he's not going to win against them. This is why as a king he must consider everything in terms of how it will effect his country.

In a war, someone needs to give something up to end it. And the someone who decides is the king. Eddis, Eugenides, and Attolia understand this very well. They don't forget that they are monarchs whose actions are accountable to their country. Sounis needs to realize this.

[kelllie.livejournal.com]

Exactly!!!! This is so well said!

[m-chant.livejournal.com]

Ohhh. I see. *sigh* I guess I'm just being stubborn and idealistic.

[m-chant.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think this is the most complex book/series I've ever read. I'm racking my brains trying to understand their motives and emotions.

[diadactic.livejournal.com]

Sounis's first two sentences mean that he didn't want to die, but he was willing to die (and lead his army to death) to avoid conquest from the Mede.

[bookishbabe.livejournal.com]

Welcome! I just finished re-reading this very section, moments before opening your post. In response: I think we have to remember the social organization in the three countries is rigid. An eddissian can't just move off the mountain, buy some lowland property, and slide right into society. There is a class system that keeps people in their places, literally and figuratively. The three countries must begin to be one people if the Eddissians are to find a place outside of their mountains. Perhaps Hephestia is making sure that her chosen people have a place in lowland society and can make a life for themselves, rather than fleeing the eruption in haste to be made subjects and beggars in the lowlands. Hmmm...even Attolia realized that shaking up the class system was the way to unify her country under her rule. She offers her loyal okloi promotion and land for service. Hello, upward mobility! Political and class barriers are being broken. So you see, the countries must be truly unified not just to fight off the vile Mede, but to ensure that Eddis can be absorbed by the other two countries when it not longer has a mountain to call home. At least those are my late-night musings on the mysterious conclusion of aCofK. Glad you've joined us!

[gkchesterton1.livejournal.com]

Another reason Eddis may need to be joined to Attolia is that Attolia has extra land to move her people to while Sounis does not. This is mentioned in TT.

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

I'm just saying hello and welcome because my thoughts are similar to what has already been said.

I agree about the complexity of the series. It's one of my favorite things about it.