"The Thief" Anniversary Read-along - Chapters 1-3

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

                                                   

If you haven't read all the books yet, these discussion post will have...

           

Thank you, Doctor Song. ..for all four books.

Reading this week from: "I didn't know how long I'd been in the king's prison." to "No one replied, and after a few minutes I fell asleep."

Favorite lines: This section brings us many iconic lines from the series.

“I can steal anything.”

“Why didn't you bring a cart?” p40

The “Howl's Moving Castle” reference - “What a lie that was.” p35

Our first use of, “So, so, so.” p36

“It had been a professional risk.” p46

“Get to the thief and you know you are halfway to Methana.” p23 Classic!

Gen even sports yellow for the first time. Well... beige.

Favorite scenes:  The part where Gen recollects sleeping in Sounis's treasure room, because it's always given me hilarious Scrooge McDuck vibes. It's also meme material.

                                               

Also, a new favorite: Gen observes that Ambiades is better looking than Sophos! (p22) Now, I really NEED to see a Cok Sophos annotated copy of “The Thief.”

Who's better looking now!!!???  XD

Things to Chew on and General Observations:

Taking a secret for granted.

Hiding Eugenides in plain site.

A long time ago, in a thrift book store, I was flipping through a used copy of “The Thief” and found a note tucked into the back. It was a note thanking the owner of the book for lending it to them and saying they really enjoyed it. All well and good, except for the final sentence. “That ending came out of no where.”

Now, I'll give you a moment to get over your initial outrage. I've been there. On the flip-side, I do understand people seem to have irrational bad reactions to surprise endings, even when they are well done. People are still panning “The Village” after all... (I love that movie, and no one will ever convince me that it's bad!) Much criticism I've read about “The Thief” often focuses on the ending. So, it's safe to conclude that some people feel angry when a work of fiction tries to trick them.

Even so, this note stuck in my mind and bothered me for a long time. Later on, I finally figured out why. The twist ending of “The Thief” doesn't come out of no where. It's not the book, it's you. It really is, because Gen's identity is never concealed in the book, not once.

That might not make any sense at first glance, but you have to remember that Gen is writing this story down in hindsight for people who know who he is and already know the outcome of events. Thus, nothing is being hidden. His identity and motivations are merely being taken for granted. Now, this is a brilliant way to hide something from your audience, and it's also extremely difficult. Every time Gen reveals who he is with a passing comment, you have to misdirect the reader to an alternate explanation that makes sense in their current frame of reference. This is why reading “The Thief” a second time is like reading a completely different book, because casual sentences take on whole new meanings when your frame of reference changes.

There are many of these in just the first three chapters. I will call them Hidden Eugenides for now. Alongside these Hidden Eugenides, is foreshadowing of future events--cleverly disguised as casual observations.

“I reviewed over and over the plans that had seemed so straightforward before I arrived...” p1

Gen is actually discussing his whole scheme to trick the magus into leading him to the Gift on the FIRST PAGE, but without the frame of reference we need to completely understand him, we later assume he must be talking about his theft of the king's seal.

“It was almost as good as clean clothes.” p7

Gen is embarrassed numerous times by how bad he smells and is frequently daydreaming about clean cloths, yet he protests washing.

“...I could see that they all three expected me to resent more soap and water.” p31

We simply assume he's being contrary to magus's order, but he's actually trying to appear much lower-born than he actually is. Lower-class people were not used to washing, and often protested against it.

“If I got out of the city of Sounis, no one would bring me back.” p11

Oh dear... It's so obvious.

“My uncle used to keep that much under his bed and count it every night.” p12

Yeah... he's probably not lying. His uncle was the king of Eddis.

“It was going to be a long trip. I grinned with satisfaction.” p16

Here Gen is pleased by the confirmation that they are heading where he thinks they are, directly to the location of the Gift. We see more of this when he shouts to Philonikes. He's further satisfied when the magus wants to keep their trip a secret.

“I ducked my head to hide my smile as my horse clopped along after the magus's.” p30

“...it was topped by solid stone lintel with two carved lions that were supposed to roar if an enemy of the king passed beneath them.” p18

Okay, he's talking about himself, but even if we do notice, we assume he considers himself an enemy of the king because he stole the king's seal. He draws even more attention to himself.

“They remained silent as we passed under.” p18

To quote Gen, You're killing me!

“I was counting the cannons bolted to their decks...” p19

He's seriously doing reconnaissance right under our noses!

“Outside the city I had felt like a bug caught out in the center of a tablecloth.” p36

Gen longing for his mountains to hem him in is mentioned a few times in the story. If you actually take a moment to think about it, you just assume he's longing for the familiarity of the cramped city.

“I wouldn't know not being scum from the gutter.” p43

Again, he's not lying...

“It had been a professional risk, but there was no point in saying so.” p46

Or... you don't want to blow your cover to save your ego.

“I'm a lot more important than anyone else here.” p46

Is he talking about being the thief or being The Thief who is a nephew of a king. Note, this actually puts him at the same class level as Sophos, but he doesn't know who Sophos is yet.

Wrapping up, guys, that was only the FIRST 3 CHAPTERS! Any others that you noticed?

Other moments worth mentioning...

“ 'We might someday attain a relationship of mutual respect,' he said softly. First, I thought, I will see gods walking the earth.” p8

Good thing he didn't say when hell freezes over. We wouldn't have anywhere to send Nahuseresh.

“One shop near the corner sold only earrings, and I watched wistfully as it went by.” p19

He doesn't even wear them!

“I sometimes caught small items in the hair at the top of the braid and hid them there.” p31

Hmm... This little fashionista just loves talking about his hair. I'm sure that won't be important later.

Personality vs. Physicality

(wait... you aren't done yet?)

Something that's always intrigued me about Megan's writing is how she focuses so well on personality and character, while putting off names, ages, and physical descriptions till much later and sometimes... never...

Our first impression of Gen is of his dry humor and snarky personality. Notice, we don't get any real physical description beyond he's thin, dirty, and not especially happy about it.

We learn Gen's name on page five. For those who thought he was a girl... XD ...the magus uses the pronoun him on the same page. We learn he's short on page twenty-four, and I'll keep an eye out, but I don't think we learn he is dark skinned and haired till almost the end of the book, when the magus mentions it.

Now, we're still waiting on the magus's name... but we do get a short description of his face. A high-bridged nose and light grey eyes, though this is an important foreshadowing of him not originally being from the city. Also, we later learn is pretty tall.

On the other hand, we get a very detailed description of Sounis. “He was short, just as his father had been, and stocky. His hair was dark gold color and curled around his ears.” p11 Now that ya mention it, how does Gen know what his father looked like?

Pol's names actually comes up first on p16 before comments on him being a soldier on p22.

On the Uselesses... Ambiades is described as dark haired and “better looking.” Sophos mostly gets a flippant “looks younger” and “completely useless.” Do we even learn Sophos is blond in this book?

What was your first impression of these characters and did it match later descriptions?

Word Choice &

Portraying a Non-western Setting

(yes... I'm still not done)

Another thing I noticed this time through is the number of new vocabulary words we get in just these three chapters. Mostly, Greek architecture terms. I'm sure the first time I read this, I was too lazy to look a lot of these up, unless I didn't understand from context the basic meaning. Also, Megan doesn't throw these out in cluster of new confusing words. They're spaced in small groupings pretty evenly throughout the text. I just had a thought about how important these terms are to convey the non-western setting. They are many distinctly Greek words from the spelling and pronunciation. Even if you really don't know what they mean, they do a lot of heavy lifting in developing a distinctly Byzantine world.

I'm using Dictionary.com as a main source.

Megaron - a building or semi-independent unit of a building, generally used as a living apartment and typically having a square or broadly rectangular principal chamber with a porch, often of columns in antis, and sometimes an antechamber or other small compartments. (PS: I had to correct the spelling of antechamber. From a dictionary website... XD)

Temple – We know this word, but in western settings, church is usually used. It helps set the tone using a word generally associated with eastern places of worship.

Basilica - (in ancient Rome) a large oblong building used as a hall of justice and public meeting place. Also, seems to be associated with early Christian churches. Gen appears to be using the word in a way that is synonymous with temple, but he uses it to describe a place of worship for the new gods, while using temple for the old gods. Interesting...

Agora – Basically, an indoor market place, which means the cells were once stalls for merchants. (Gen even says this.) Greeks generally had indoor or covered market places, also called porticos. Ancient malls?

Magus – Magus were what the three wise men were! From the Greek magos meaning magic. The word we're more familiar with is magi. Often associated with sorcery. Also, a priest or scholar in Persia.

Scrolls – Also, a word we know. I find it interesting she started with a word we associate with eastern culture and not book, even though they have books too in this world.

Gallery – We still use this word in the same way. An area for spectators, but you generally only see it used to mean the cheap seats in theater and opera. The Greeks did build some of the first theaters.

Portico – We often use this as another word for porch. It's also another type of agora. More similar to a modern strip mall. It's like a long covered porch with columns.

Amphoras - An ancient Greek or Roman two-handled narrow-necked jar for oil, wine, etc. Oh, those things! We generally call these Greecian urns, but that's the proper name for them.

Hypocaust – Basically, ancient heating vents. I immediately associated this word with heat, because of the word caustic, which goes back to the Greek word kaust, meaning heat or burn. Hypo- means below. I like how there is an ancient version of modern thieves sneaking through ventilation shafts!

                                               

“God forbid anyone else should learn how to crawl on their stomach through a tiny space!”

Retort – Oh, he means this thing. The magus has a lab!

We know this word to mean a snarky comeback. In Greek, this means to bend back or twist. So, the two meanings we have for the word are from literal and figurative uses.

Veranda and Villa – We know these, but they are not usually used to describe western buildings, so again an eastern touch.

Other stuff...

There is also a lot of Mediterranean flora and fauna mentioned: olive trees, eucalyptuses, almond trees, etc.

The etesian winds also come up. A real wind current along the Aegean sea. These actually start in April but are strongest in July and August. Late summer! Just like Gen says.

Vampire is a Slavic word, but Greeks did have vampires in their folklore. They called them vrykolakas. I see why Megan didn't use that word! The garlic repelling vampires trope is a lot older than the modern Dracula story, and may come from it being a natural repellent for mosquitoes!

Also, the word Attolia is interesting. I'm sure this comes from the word Anatolia, which is mostly modern Turkey and a small part of modern southern Greece. This is exactly where the early Byzantine Empire was!

There is also a city in southern Greece called Edessa. If you think that's just a coincidence...

Later, under the Byzantine Empire, Edessa benefited from its strategic location, controlling the Via Egnatia as it enters the Pindus mountains, and became a center of medieval Greek culture, famed for its strong walls and fortifications. -Wiki

It was also known for it's textile industry. Explain that!

Bonus! I just found a place in Greece call Cape Sounion. Site of the ruins of a temple of Poseiden, which is thought to closely resemble a temple in nearby Athens called the Temple of Hephaistos, god of metal working and fire.

Any word choices you noticed that assist with world building?

A random observation that doesn't fit anywhere else...

“The baseboards were painted with an occasional patch of lilies and a tortoise or resting bird. ...painted pack of hunting dogs chased a lion around a corner door...” p6

This is a very early instance of symbols that are used later in the books. Lilies are an Attolian symbol, so it's interesting to see it in Sounis. Lions are associated with Sounis many times, but why is the lion being hunted and not featured as a proud symbol? This is like America painting the eagle being caught in a net in the White House. Also, how does a tortoise look like a bird? Was this you Gen?

And that's my final joke! Dear lord... Did I have a lot to say about the first THREE chapters!

Please, discuss and share you observations and favorite bits.

PS: No, spell checker! I do not want to change the word Sounis to sound. What is wrong with you?

Comments

[sunsethill.livejournal.com]

You have done a very nice job on this summary. It was hard for me to stop reading the book after just three chapters, but I managed to restrain myself because I wanted to enjoy this discussion.

Your comments on the misdirection that makes the ending seem like a complete surprise on first reading reminds me of Agatha Christie. She was known to play scrupulously fair with her readers. All the clues you needed to solve the mystery were there all laid out for you, but she knew the way people's minds worked so well that she could wave a clue right under your nose, but you were focused on the shadow puppets she was making with her other hand! This is what Megan has done with this book.

In fact, she did it so well that I had trouble the first time I read this book as she does such a good job hiding Gen's real character. The character Gen is pretending to be is not appealing to me and so I finished the book the first time primarily because it was recommended by someone I really respect. When ever I recommend the book, I tell people that they may not really "get into" the book for quite a while, but that the end is worth it.

I also remember being a little confused by the world-building. I do know a fairly good bit about ancient Greek culture, but there was just enough that was anachronistic that it kept throwing me. I wonder if someone who knows less about ancient Greece is more or less confused? I think some of my confusion probably came because I'm old enough to not have been familiar with the similar type of thing done in steampunk stories. This is something I really enjoy now, but on first reading it was disconcerting.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Thank you, and I'm glad you decided to participate!

I may have gone on to listen to quite a few more chapters of the read-aloud... It's hard to stop!

Christie was a master of the misdirect. "The Mouse Trap" remains my favorite play for exactly that reason. "The Crooked House" is another great example. The answer really is quite obvious and hidden in plain site, but you're so distracted by implied clues and red-herring hints that you don't see it.

On the flip-side, I remembered people saying they preferred the common, dirty Gen to the court-breed Eugenides, but he is one in the same. I guess, I like both versions of him. Though I did understand from the get-go he wasn't being entirely honest with me, so I didn't take his character at face value.

That's why I feel like Megan could only pull that twist off with the first book. She tricks you into underestimating her too.

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

Responding to your last point, I know very little about ancient Greek culture other than the staple mythology lessons taught in grade school. I wasn't confused about the setting, and now that you've brought the point up, I do think you may be right that it was the reason I wasn't confused. In addition to that, the first time I read "The Thief," I wasn't very well read. I wasn't even an active reader. I was one of those people who had basically no strong reaction to the twist at the end -- I was just like, "Oh, his real name is Eugendes. Where have I heard that name before? Oh, he actually lives in a palace. That's neat." Heh.

But I think that in several interviews, MWT clarified that the setting is not actually "ancient" Greece. I'm a poor history student, so I don't actually know the time periods marked by the different eras, but she said it's really more like Byzantine. It's late enough that we get pocket watches and pistols.

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

The pistols, pocket watches and cannons are actually historical anomalies even for the Byzantine era. Pistols first appeared in Europe in the 15th century AD, watches even later. Viewed historically, the world of QT is very, very fantasy :)

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think a lot of people didn't know what to make of the setting when those things popped up. They were expecting Ancient Greece but got something quite different.

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

Short of an encyclopaedia or two, I’m not sure there’s such a thing as too long a post about The Thief!
Yes to ALL those favourite lines! Is it just all my friends, or are we as a fandom marked by a habit of saying “So, so,” at all occasions appropriate and otherwise?!? I also love the line about mutual respect. I think by CoK they have achieved it... :)
NO, that ending does not come out of nowhere! Even if one is inclined to join the Magus in saying “Gen, you viper!” There are so many, many clues ... Gen's just a master of misdirection. :)
All the Greek architecture, furnishings and other trimmings just made me wriggle my toes with joy the first time I read it – and every time since – for I studied Classical Civilisations at A’ Level (High School equivalent for all you Americans). ‘Twas nice to meet it all again! But it does also do its purpose of world-building: visualising the characters is limited, but there’s no denying you see the very scenes Gen’s passing through. Definite echoes of Rosemary Sutcliff, one of MWT’s favourite authors according to her notes at the back, here.
Yes, it is funny the way Gen /keeps/ fiddling with his hair, again and again and again, then quite suddenly stops. One quite forgets this explanation he offers right at the start!
The cannon reconnaissance was one I hadn’t noticed before.
One thing which always intrigues me is Philonikes. Gen is, basically, telling the truth at this point, albeit as Lady Jane describes, in such a way we either mistake, miss or explain away the real state of affairs. So when he says “I saw Philonikes,” we have to assume he really did see someone he knew, at least slightly, of that name. An Eddisian? A stray friend he’s picked up in Sounis?
So, so, so. For the moment, that’s my ha’pennorth on chapters 1 to 3. Anyone have any good fanfic they’ve read or written for these three chapters to recommend? I think somewhere in the LJ archive there’s one from the PoV of the innkeeper’s wife, which was pretty good and dripped with dramatic ironies...

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Oh, the "so, so, so" is used throughout the fandom. I believe it's homage to another book series... I can't recall. Someone spot me the name!

By the fight at the river, I'd decided it must be a nervous tick, because why else would he re-braid his hair immediately after a sword fight! Oh, you were hiding the Gift. Okay, that makes more sense! Of course, by then you've totally forgotten about a casual comment he'd made at the beginning of the book.

A review I read once described it much more eloquently than ever could, and I'm paraphrasing since I don't remember exactly...

"The twist reveal is not so much a bolt of lightening, as a gentle beam of sunlight illuminating a shadow you've been trying to make out for quite some time." Exactly!

There has always been some speculation that Philonikes was a made up dude, and Gen was just testing the magus's reaction. A student of Greek also worked out that his name may be a hint. Philo- means love and Nike is the Goddess of Victory. "I love victory!" Hmm...

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

The Nikes were notoriously fleeting, so maybe the name is meant to indicate a brief or fleeting acquaintance?

[enleve.livejournal.com]

Neat observation of the symbols painted on the baseboards. I hadn't noticed that.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Oh, joy! Discussions have begun!

A question--on pg 16 of my paperback when they are leaving on their quest, where the Magus yells to "look for it on the bench next to the retort," the so-called idiot returns with a small square leather case. Do you think that held Gen's tools? The Magus' compass?

I love how we get the first glimpse of the Magus' personality, and how he changes by the end of the book when he comes to respect and care about Gen even before finding out who he really is. Oh, Magus, how I adore you, you supercilious jerk. He really is quite different in the later books, in his dealings with Gen (whom he respects and fears, I think), Helen, who is a queen, and Sophos, who is a king. Maybe he has that Magus Attitude only toward people he sees as inferior to himself in some way?

The part where Gen is talking to the landlady, whose son is in prison, and he forgets the part he's playing enough to give her a real smile rather than the grin of an actor. I like that. Gen is not *quite* the uncaring brat he pretends to be.

I went to the British Museum several years ago and was fortunate enough to see ancient amphora.

http://worldalldetails.com/sightseeing/british_museum_london_270927.jpg (href)

And on that same trip I visited Bath, where the ancient Roman baths have the remnants of a hypocaust. The floor is gone, but the the space between the two floors, where the heat was pumped in, is still there.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Caldarium.JPG (href)

I read QoA before I read TT and it was really difficult for me to match the Gen from one book to the Gen from the other. The POV change is really huge. I'll talk more about that when we get to our QoA discussion.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I always thought it was Gen's tools, since those come up later. Hmm... It does say his tools were wrapped in leather when the magus's gives them to Gen, so I'd say it's the tools.

The magus can be real jerk in this book! Though, some of that is Gen's first-person POV, and even he admits the magus is a pretty decent guy in the end. He is very condescending towards Gen, which may have been his method for trying to control him. Goading him into doing what he wants maybe...? We forget, but Gen is technically his prisoner. Be it in a "Ransom of the Red Chief" sort of way.

By Cok, the magus seems much cuddlier and less ruthless, which is probably influenced by Sophos's POV. Did you notice Sophos called him Magus, with a capital on page 27? For some reason, that struck me as really cute! To think this little bunny Sophos turns into CoK buff and dangerous Sophos, who throws people across the room!

Gen really is an empathetic person, despite himself. He's really nice to the barkeep girl and the landlady. He can be charming when he wants to be...

The hypocaust is clever. A sub-floor held up by columns with a space for heat to vent into and warm the room. It's marvelous example of ancient building design.

Right now, I don't yet have a plan for a QoA read-along, but if this one goes well... I would like to continue the re-read this winter to celebrate the release of the new editions. I'll look into that after Thief Month.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Psst! Look what I found in the Wiki summary for The Thief.

"The journey isn't dangerous, and the travellers get on each other's nerves."




That is too perfect. I dare you to tell people that when you recommend the books!

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

Your comments on how the ending often throws people off is interesting. I've often heard the opposite--that the ending is what saves the book for them (I think a lot of people have difficulty with The Thief). Or, more specifically, Eddis's entrance is what grabs people.

Eddis's character is so important throughout all four books, and she and Gen are so close, that I'm always surprised how much she's NOT THERE. She's only in The Thief at the end. In KoA, we get one scene with her in the magus. She obviously plays a huge role in ACoK (the book is literally told to and for her), but she's actually not in there for many pages.

We see the most of her in Queen of Attolia, and I always like to savor that book for all the Eddis we get.

Props to MWT for creating such a powerful character with so few pages, but I'm greedy AND I WANT MORE. *chants* EDDIS, EDDIS, EDDIS!!!!

This veered far off topic from the first three chapters, but I wanted to post my thoughts. You did a great job analyzing everything!

[ejmam.livejournal.com]

Most adults figure out that Gen is more than he seems, but I don't know anyone who guessed that he's The Queen's Thief and that he's bringing her the stone. Some guessed one or the other and feel smug until the last scene.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Somewhat hilariously, the whole reason I read the Queen's Thief series in the first place was a series of fan ficlets which completely spoiled the ending of book 2. So I read The Queen of Attolia first (I don't remember if I read the other two next, then went back to The Thief, but it was definitely not the first one I read). Since I got into the series because of a spoiler, it is odd to me to think that someone would dislike the series because of the twists. I love the way the book makes new sense with that knowledge (though I read it already knowing the main twist, if not the Gift twist).

Awesome job on the summary! :)

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I read QoA first, too! With me it was because TT was checked out of the library and I had no idea that first book had a twist ending that the second book would spoil. I do think my reading experience was entirely different because of the order. I wasn't so attached to Gen when the chopchop scene happened.

I do wish I'd read TT first.

Eucalyptus

[etv13.livejournal.com]

As their ubiquity in Southern California indicates, Eucalyptus trees grow well in a Mediterranean climate, but they actually come from Australia and parts nearby. Their presence in Sounis underscores that Gen's world is not a close analogue to ancient or 16th-century Greece, but is a fantasy world of its own.

RE: Eucalyptus

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I'd describe it as Byzantine-esque. She pulls bits and pieces from different places and eras and makes a few things up too. However, the base is clearly Greek/Byzantine. Eucalyptus wasn't introduced to the Anatolia region till the 19th century, but they are cultivated there now, so why not?

She's said she wanted her world to be different from the western European based fantasy worlds we're used to. She didn't want to create yet another Middle Earth. XD

It's kinda like how Game of Thrones isn't the War of the Roses and the Sapranos isn't the Medici family, but they were inspired by them, so they bear certain similarties.

The Thief read-along and discussion

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

User pendrecarc referenced to your post from The Thief read-along and discussion (http://pendrecarc.livejournal.com/203795.html) saying: [...] in the discussion! No LJ account needed--anon commenting should be turned on.Post 1: Chapters 1-3 [...]