A Conspiracy of Kings Chapters 17-23

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

This week we finish our community read-along, as we’ve reread all the books to get ready for the release of Thick As Thieves, woohoo! This section covers the last seven chapters of A Conspiracy of Kings, beginning with the change back to to 1st person POV as Sophos says, “ We left Attolia with all the provisions we had missed on our previous journey,” and ending with, “They both laughed.”

This discussion should be spoiler-free for the new short stories and Thick As Thieves. Which we’ll be discussing SOON.

All page numbers I refer to are from the original hardback book.

Although A Conspiracy of Kings is a more linear story than QoA or KoA, these last seven chapters are as complex and layered as any in the series.  When I first read them, they seemed straightforward. But, at the same time, I had a vague feeling there was a subtle undercurrent going on, and I was missing something. I gradually realized that feeling was from not realizing how much of what happens in these final chapters is entirely from Sophos’ (ok, with some help from Gen, Irene, Helen and maybe the Magus) plans and manipulations.  But Sophos is the key player here and it is his leadership, patience, determination, and even his acting ability that lead to his final success as he assumes the throne and becomes, in every sense, the king of Sounis.

As we’ve seen in past story arcs with Gen, Helen, and Irene, an overarching theme of the series is what rulers must do for love of  their countries, and whether those difficult decisions are justified. All the rulers in these books must act in ways they wouldn’t have chosen as an individual. It’s heart wrenching to see Sophos realize his limited choices and that those choices must involve war and violence. Some of the most powerful parts in the book are where he compares himself to his uncle, and when he smiles at the end and the barons see his uncle in him, it gave me chills.

I liked pendrecarc ‘s idea of discussion questions in comments, so see my five below. The comments are titled:
You Shot the Ambassador
From Bunny to Mankiller
He couldn’t offend the gods with a pointed stick
These Are My Dead/My Hands Are Covered in Blood
I Love Stupid Plans!

Feel free to also leave a general comment about the entire book. I would also ask that folks stay away from partisan political comments, so everyone feels welcome. Let’s stick to the politics of Eddis, Attolia, and Sounis, which leaves plenty to talk about.

Also, some random questions:
What do you think Helen said in her love letter? Sadly, it’s probably in the slush pile along with the Wedding Night scene.
What did you think of Helen’s clever letter? Did you get it right away, or not until Sophos did?
What’s the significance of the two Ions? Why do you think Megan made the choice to give them the same name?
Who knew Sophos wore an earring??
What’s the significance of the library, that everyone from Gen’s great-great-grandfather to Sophos has dreamed about it?

HAHAHA moments:
I love the humor sprinkled throughout this book, most of it from Sophos’s sotto voce comments about other characters and himself. What are your favorites? Some of mine:
"All I could do was wave my sword around to defend myself and try not to cut the ears off my own horse."
"I landed badly, just exactly like a sack of rocks…"
"Eurydice could be heard, if she chose to exert herself, across several fields and a small river."
"It was all I could do to keep myself from grabbing Comeneus’s finger and biting it."


 

Comments

You Shot the Ambassador

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

So, here’s the part I was referring to, about feeling I was missing something during my first read. I thought Sophos was the victim here, subject completely to the Medes’s plans. On pg. 263, we learn that Sophos had instructed his troops to feint an attack, then scatter and reform a few times. They retreated with few casualties, and allowed Sophos to be captured and taken to Brimedius. Sophos could have faded away with the Magus, but chose to remain and be captured. Once at Brimedius, Sophos killed time until he was sure his mother and sisters were safe, and he’d given his father’s/the Magus’s/Gen’s troops time to get to Elisa. Even though Sophos was a captive, he was mostly the one pulling the strings here.

Remember in The Thief when you went back and read all those clues you’d missed the first time? A reread made me feel like that. Here’s the evidence I missed the first time around:
Both of them had urged me to keep my plans to myself (p 211)
I had prepared my Attolians and my Eddisians carefully. (p 212)
It was an excellent place for a trap, and we had sprung it. (p 213)
Without needing a signal, the Eddisian captain whistled a retreat. (p 214)
The battle hadn’t been unanticipated or forced on me, as the raid in the villa had been. (p 215)
(To the Magus) “You aren’t supposed to be here!” I shouted. “Get back!” (p 216)
When the first men of Sounis reached the top of the hill, I shouted clearly, “I am the king of Sounis,” on the slight chance that the silvered breastplate with the Sounis colors in velvet underneath didn’t identify me clearly enough. (p 216)
“What a surprise to see you here,” I said to him, not surprised at all. (p 217)
And so by late afternoon I was in Brimedius, almost exactly as I’d originally planned. (217)
I am not Gen. I cannot tell a convincing lie. He and I had agreed that I was foolish to try… (219)
I practiced firing Attolia’s gun… (225)

So, how much of the plan do you think was conceived ahead of time, versus Sophos improvising as needed? Had he planned from the start to shoot Hanaktos if he could find no better way of convincing the barons that he should be king? And, once he got the barons to support him, did he have any hope that his army could stop the Medes?

Re: You Shot the Ambassador

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

The thing with the first reading of ACoK is that after having read The Thief, you can just tell there's /something/ going on here ... but still miss it!

Re: You Shot the Ambassador

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Springing the trap and telling the Magus he wasn't supposed to be there* definitely clued me in to there being a devious plan afoot, on my first read. What I'm still not entirely sure of is why Gen waited to send more soldiers. Did he think Sophos needed to prove himself as a leader, first?

(*That part makes me want to cry... imagine having to leave Sophos in the middle of a battlefield to be captured and very possibly killed?!)

Re: You Shot the Ambassador

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

The part where the magus's tells him that he never saw his uncle doubt himself or regret the dead is one of my favorite magus scenes. He told Sophos exactly what he needed to hear and also what he wanted to say if he never saw his king again.

WAAHHHH!!!

Re: You Shot the Ambassador

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

Yes, same! Even in my reread (after a few months, I'm prone to forget the intrigue in ACoK, because it's *so* complex and there are so many more players here than in the other books), it was definitely frustrating for me to read about his captivity in Brimedius's megaron. I felt like he was wasting time. And then I found out that was the entire point! He was supposed to waste time. And it's such brilliant storytelling.

(See, I had to edit this because I mixed up two barons' names already.)

From Bunny to Mankiller

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

A Conspiracy of Kings has a stronger theme of “coming-of-age” than any of the other books. Although Gen is young in The Thief, his personality seems nearly fully formed. Sophos is more of a blank slate when we first meet him and changes in a more dramatic way. In this last part of the book, Sophos has already changed into the king he’s going to be, although not all his decisions have been made. He compares himself, usually to his detriment, to Eugenides, to his father, and to his uncle.

What evidence did you see of Sophos’s growth and transformation from a boy with little talent or self-confidence into a king, as he accepts his fate and steps into his role as leader?

Re: From Bunny to Mankiller

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I think it's funny how Sophos doesn't give himself any credit, really, for helping his mother and sisters escape the bandits. I love the way Megan wrote that drunken tutor in there, waving his wineskin and shouting, "You're being attacked by six men with swords," as practice. And then, after Sophos had been taken captive, he kicked and fought and made the others afraid of him. We all know about self-fulfilling prophecy, and that may be what helped Sophos grow and change. He'd always seen himself through the lens of what his father thought, but once he was labeled as a "mankiller" he began to act that role. The others treated him so, and he began to see himself differently.

There's such a difference between Sophos' first captivity and his second. At the beginning of the book, he shirks sword and riding practice, but he's completely focused and driven when he's being held at Brimedius.

Re: From Bunny to Mankiller

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

We all know about self-fulfilling prophecy, and that may be what helped Sophos grow and change. He'd always seen himself through the lens of what his father thought, but once he was labeled as a "mankiller" he began to act that role. The others treated him so, and he began to see himself differently.

Whoa, I never thought about it this way!

He couldn’t offend the gods with a pointed stick

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Many of the QT characters are visited by Moira. She was distant to Nahuserish (“I only ask that you hear me.”). She shows Eddis the destruction of her country, and tells Gen to stop whining. To Sophos she is kind and patient. She invites him to sit down, smiles at him, teaches him and tells him stories, and accepts his decision that he doesn’t want his dust mote moved into the sun. Why are the gods so gentle with Sophos?

In the past, the gods kept Irene from having Gen executed, and told Nahuseresh where to find Irene. How come the gods didn’t intervene to help Sophos when he needed it? Or did they? Is that how he knew just where to find the army Gen sent?

Re: He couldn’t offend the gods with a pointed stick

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

The "pointed stick" line goes down as one of those famous last words. The funniest thing is that it's Gen of all people who said it. He didn't expect Sophos to shoot the ambassador!

Re: He couldn’t offend the gods with a pointed stick

[sclerotia.livejournal.com]

Actually, I thought this was going to be another discussion of the "pointed stick" remark. I have never been able to figure it out. It seems like one of those lines that has to mean more than it means, but what? We had a discussion of this sometime, and I never felt that the comments nailed it to my satisfaction.

But on to Moira and Sophos: I think the gods want something different from Sophos than immediate action. Something that he is not ready or in a position to give at that point. So they ready him for what they have in store for him. I think that the discussion of Poers history of Komanare of the Bructs contains the seminal ideas for what follows. Sophos says about Komanare "if a king can't make his people behave, then yes, he is a bad king" and Moira says "Well, at least he stayed."

So later he chooses to move his own dust mote into the sun by his own actions and to "stay" in that he chooses to approach and then, as it becomes necessary, rescue his father. And he chooses all the "kingly" actions that follow from that. And he chooses, since he is king to make his barons behave by violence, since words don't suffice, and to "stay" to fight the Medes at Oneia rather than flee to safety.

Re: He couldn’t offend the gods with a pointed stick

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I always took the pointed stick reference as just a funny comment of Gen's, along the lines of "toddler with a toasting fork," rather than thinking it means more than it seems.

Maybe Megan is a Monty Python fan?

Sgt.: Huh! 'Flu, eh? They should eat more fresh fruit. Ha. Right. Now, self-defense. Tonight I shall be carrying on from where we got to last week when I was showing you how to defend yourselves against anyone who attacks you with armed with a piece of fresh fruit.
(Grumbles from all)
Palin: Oh, you promised you wouldn't do fruit this week.
Sgt.: What do you mean?
Jones: We've done fruit the last nine weeks.
Sgt.: What's wrong with fruit? You think you know it all, eh?
Palin: Can't we do something else?
Idle (Welsh): Like someone who attacks you with a pointed stick?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me!

These Are My Dead/My Hands Are Covered in Blood

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I worry about Sophos as the years go by. His country has been stolen by his best friend. His true love has deceived him (or at a minimum kept him uninformed) and manipulated him into saving her country. (“But Sophos had to know that she and Eugenides had let him ride away with an Attolian army at his back, believing he had needed it. With more faith in himself, and his father’s army, he could have retaken his throne without Attolia’s aid. He might not have followed that bloodier and more costly path, but Eddis and Attolis hadn’t offered him the choice.” p. 310). His barons have forced him to resort to violence and act as his uncle would have (including his smile).

Similar things turned Irene into a person who wore a cold mask and chopped off people’s hands. How will the events in ACoK change Sophos in the future? Will he be able to gain the respect of his barons and countrymen/women? Or is he doomed to infighting and sand in his food? Will his role as king change him from the kind and sensitive person he has been? “If I couldn’t be Eddis, I would be Attolia.”

Re: These Are My Dead/My Hands Are Covered in Blood

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

I think there is quite a lot of hope for Sophos for the future, compared to Irene when she used almost the exact same manoeuvre to gain the throne. She was entirely alone, whereas Sophos has his family, the Magus, Gen, Irene and of course, Helen. And I suspect her "magnetic personality", as the Magus termed it in QoA, might just bring a few Sounisian barons and their wives into line.
Also, Sophos, like Gen, can act in his own strength and the Barons, a chauvinistic bunch frankly, respect that. Irene had the problem that she had, by and large, to rule by her Guard, which didn't achieve the same long term respect from the Barons. Though I am quite sure she would be capable of shooting an ambassador if she wanted to :D

Re: These Are My Dead/My Hands Are Covered in Blood

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

"Though I am quite sure she would be capable of shooting an ambassador if she wanted to :D"

She gave him the first gun, after all. The second (from Gen), he only discovers later. I'll take the liberty of interpreting that thusly...

Attolia: "Boom!"

Gen: "I really hoped it wouldn't come to this, but she has a point."

I wonder if the matched set is destined for Sophos and Helen's respective bedposts?

And while I'm being silly and irreverent, Sophos's big moment always makes me think of this scene from Muppet Treasure Island (with Sophos in the role of Silver, obviously, and the rest being Medes and skittish barons.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWSYiGpLrHY

Re: These Are My Dead/My Hands Are Covered in Blood

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

Miss Piggy as Lady Hanaktia?
XD

Re: These Are My Dead/My Hands Are Covered in Blood

[11rod88staff11.livejournal.com]

WOAH WOAH WOAH!!!!
Thank you so much for this. Of COURSE that matching set of guns are destined for Sophos and Helen's bedposts. I just spent a significant amount of time today pondering the meanings behind the inscriptions:

"The Queen made me." (from Irene)
"I make the King." (from Eugenides)

I thought the inscriptions on the gifts were referring to Irene and Eugenides... but... if they are really intended for Sophos and Helen... and the inscription refers to Helen the Queen and Sophos the King.. and their union... it makes more sense to me.

It's foreshadowing a union in marriage and in nation...

THANK YOU.

Re: These Are My Dead/My Hands Are Covered in Blood

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

I'd probably say more about this topic, but I'm just going to start off by saying that that entire scene -- If I couldn’t be Eddis, I would be Attolia -- was so haunting and amazing at the same time in ways I can't probably explain more.

Oh, and I love the whole ton of sass he conjured out of nowhere when he raised his hand and felt for thunderbolts, and was all, "Nah, the gods are on my side."

EDIT: Okay, right after I sent this comment, I realized I do have more things to say. I'm actually really glad that Sophos had to be more like Attolia than Eddis. If Sophos had managed to take back his country peacefully when he was under almost the same circumstances as a younger Attolia, it would have reflected poorly on her. I think given the choices that Sophos had and the situation into which he was forced, his decision sets up an interesting parallel and dynamic with the other three rulers. I also think it was a way for him to develop some empathy for Attolia. If *he*, the soft-spoken, kind-hearted bunny, could resort to shooting his barons and ambassadors, then it isn't much of a stretch to believe that Attolia could have once been someone who wasn't stony and ruthless.

Re: These Are My Dead/My Hands Are Covered in Blood

[11rod88staff11.livejournal.com]

maderelee, thank you, this post, particularly with your Edit absolutely made my evening. I couldn't have said it better.

I too see Irene and Sophos relationship blossoming and evolving. Amongst the four sovereigns, they are the only two that don't go way, way back together: Whereas, Helen and Gen are cousins, Helen and Irene were rivals as children, Gen and Sophos had their Hamiathes Gift adventure together)... I really see MWT giving Irene and Sophos a chance to forge an equally significant bond over the next two books. Everytime Irene asked Gen about Sophos in the times leading up to CofK, MWT used the word "softly." Attolia asks about Sophos "softly." I really .... drank in that singular word used to describe Irene's curiosity. Like just that WORD when referring to Irene gives me a rush of love for her. It was full of this already-present intuitive tenderness for Sophos long before she knew anything about him. She knew that Sophos was very special to her husband and because she trusted her husband, that fact in and of itself made her trust Sophos.

Additionally, even though Sophos was still feeling reticent about Attolia (because at this point in CofK, Irene's much better than when she was when at the brink of losing herself completely in QOA-- she's still really not fully healed or fully showing herself to others yet but getting there...) like he was still perceiving her as "cool and icy" .. Attolia was actually pouring her heart out to him, in the only way she knew how-- by candidly sharing everything she knows about ruling a country with him, clearly with the hope of helping him in anyway she could.

I feel like while the circumstances under which Irene and Sophos have to take back their country as young monarchs are similar, at the same time I feel like there was an additional layer in Attolia... it was Irene against the patriarchy, like her barrons resisted her even more because she was a woman and "going where a woman has no right to go without being affiliated with a man" kind of thing.

And this gets me thinking about how Helen did not, in comparison, seem to face gender discrimination from her country when she was crowned but from what I understand the Eddisians are more spiritually connected to their gods than the Attolians (where spirituality has faded into going a festival here and there and using the gods' names for cussing-- lol) And it was known that the Eddisian gods had chosen Eddis Helen and endorsed by their deities, the people accepted that.

Re: These Are My Dead/My Hands Are Covered in Blood

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Oh, very well said! Irene is in awe of Gen and Sophos's relationship of dear friends who really care about one another, and she realizes how important Sophos's good opinion is to Gen. And she's giving Sophos a huge piece of herself, even though he doesn't understand that.

And I completely agree that it was Irene against the patriarchy, where with Sophos they expected him to behave in the same angry, uncaring way as his uncle, and didn't see him as a competent ruler if he behaved differently.

I do remember that at some point it's said that Helen became ruler of Eddis on the force of the Minister of War's hand, who swore no one but she would rule. Do you suppose he had visions, too, that she would be the last Eddis?

I Love Stupid Plans!

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Sophos is sent off to Brimedius without enough soldiers and counts on Gen to provide him with more help when he makes his final stand at Oneia against ten thousand Medes. He breaks the truce at Eisa, kills an unarmed man, and shoots an ambassador. If you accept that most of what happens in these chapters is due to the plan Gen and Sophos dreamed up in the wine shop, how is this plan, compared to all the other stupid plans? Let’s review…

Stealing the king’s seal, bragging in a wineshop, getting sent to Sounis’s prison
Depending on a fallen tree bridge you’ve constructed in order to escape the queen’s soldiers
Sneaking into Attolia’s megaron just because your queen asked you to
Sneaking back into Attolia’s megaron after she’s cut off your hand
Sneaking into Attolia’s bedroom while she’s sleeping and leaving her presents
Kidnapping the queen and getting her to accept your marriage proposal when you didn’t really think about being king
Demanding an answer from the gods
Jumping over atriums 4 stories up, just because
Taunting a member of your guard into slugging you, in order to change the mind of the man next to him (and reduce the guard by half)
Jumping around on crenellations when you’re drunk
Agreeing to fight the entire king’s guard when you have a hangover and want breakfast

What have I missed?

Re: I Love Stupid Plans!

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

Jumping off a large rock into a bunch of cavalry?

Re: I Love Stupid Plans!

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Two words:

Fake cannon.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Just a general comment here:

You mentioned Sophos' acting ability and how it served him, and it dawned on me that all those years of him watching, memorizing, and obsessing over plays, were not wasted!

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

Indeed! And not just in being the chief evening orator in Baron Hanaktos' field house!

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Oratoring at the field house also gave him practice for giving speeches. Funny how that works? XD

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Would it be possible to request that the headers for the questions in the comments be appended to the post itself? I find the comment discussion questions methods really hard to follow.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Sure! I also created links that will take you straight to that question/comment. Hope that helps.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Fantastic - thanks so much! :)

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I had to stay up all night to finish the book, but I am finally current, yah! Anyhow, I will get to the questions later, but I just wanted to leave this here.

Earlier in the book Sophos described Akretensh as "saturnine." It's not a common word, so I looked it up and here's that.

1. sluggish in temperament; gloomy; taciturn.
2. suffering from lead poisoning, as a person.

Lead? Guess what Sophos's bullets were made out of?

AAAHHHHH!

saturnine

[(Anonymous)]

lead--very good

But I think you need a dictionary with more definitions of "saturnine". "Sardonic" is the one I would choose as a synonym in this case.

Not signed in,
Sclerotia

RE: saturnine

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, I'm confused by what you mean by synonymy. Synonyms are different words with similar meanings. In this case, it's the same word with multiple meanings.

I was quoting the archaic meanings, which come from associations with the planet Saturn.

Of course, I'm sure she meant sardonic as the primary meaning, but the word also being associated with lead, is an interesting coincidence. Possibly an accident but accidental foreshadowing, nonetheless.

Re: saturnine

[11rod88staff11.livejournal.com]

I feel she absolutely meant BOTH definitions. Very very very sharp of you to find the lead allusion.

plain

[(Anonymous)]

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[manderelee.livejournal.com]

Did anyone else find Sophos a little out of character in the last chapter? I found it a little startling that he would not only interrupt Eddis (a queen he's long admired) while she's trying to tell him something important, but to also announce his engagement carelessly to Eugenides, and then demand answers from Eddis. I just thought he was more circumspect than that.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

The first two things you mention, interrupting Eddis and carelessly announcing his engagement, I chalked up to his boyish exuberance and the excitement of finally having things settled with Helen. And his outburst where he says he certainly can't marry her because he can't ask her to bow down to Eugenides--maybe that was coming from his newly found leadership as king.

He deserved to demand answers from Eddis. She kept so many things from him, including that library in Attolia after he'd told Eddis all about his dreams.

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

Oh good point. I thought that Eddis was angry because of Sophos's behaviour, but now I think she might have been angry more with herself and her frustration with the situation.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I think she might have been angry more with herself and her frustration with the situation.

Oh, I think you are right! I didn't fully understand why Helen was so angry with Sophos. But she had so many ulterior motives she couldn't tell Sophos about, plus her complicated plan had so many ways it could have gone badly, or crushed Sophos' feelings for her. No wonder she was frustrated and angry.