Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

I found the passage between Sophos and Gen from "The Thief". This is what is says:

"Are you really named after the god of thieves?"
"I am."
"Well, how could they tell what you were going to be when you were just a baby?"
"How did they know what you were going to be when you were a baby."
"My father was a duke."
"So my mother was a thief."
"So you would have to grow up to be one, too?"
"Most of the people in my family thought so. My father wanted me to be a soldier, but he's been disappointed."

Notice he doesn't answer Sophos' question directly. He answers with another question, and doesn't just say "Yes" to the question of "So you would have to grow up to be one, too?" He just says MOST of the people in his family thought so. He also doesn't specifically say he was given that name at birth, just that he's named after the god...which he could have been named later on. This series is full of names-that-are-also-titles that characters are granted later in life (Sounis, Attolis, etc).

If being the Queen's Thief is strictly hereditary like being a duke, does that mean that Gen's mother was also named Eugenides (or Eugenidia)?? Was Gen named Eugenides because he was the oldest of his siblings (was he?) and was therefore destined to become Queen's Thief?

The fact that he says MOST of the people in his family thought he would be a thief makes me suspect that it's not in fact a straight forward title/name passed down in a straight line. Otherwise, wouldn't ALL of the people in his family have expected him to be Thief by virtue of his birth?

This is talked about again later on after they make it to Eddis.
Sophos asks, "Was it because your mother was the Queen's Thief that you were called Eugenides?"

Gen replied, "Partly. It's closer to the truth to say that Eugenides is a family name and I was named after my grandfather. But my mother, you know, was never the Queen's Thief. She died before my grandfather did, and I inherited the title directly from him."

If Eugenides is a name given to whomever is next in line to be Thief, why doesn't he say he was named after his mother (presuming she is included in the line of thieves who are ALL named after the god)? Instead, he was "named after his grandfather" who'd held the QT title last. And, again, him saying "Partly" makes me think that being Thief is not simply a matter of who's-next-in-line.

*overthinking galore*

Edited Date: 5/17/17 05:45 pm (UTC)

From: (Anonymous)

There was a short story about Gen and his cousins when he was younger (not in one of the novels). He was named Eugenides in that story long before becoming the Queen's Thief, as I recall.

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"Was Gen named Eugenides because he was the oldest of his siblings (was he?)..."

The short story is here: http://meganwhalenturner.org/books/bk_disney.html

And in it we learn that Gen has an older brother named Stenides (the same one who gives him a fancy watch in QoA). So, to answer your question: No, Gen's not the eldest of his siblings.

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Hm, so if he's NOT the oldest, then it's not a simple matter of lineage. How do they choose which child to name Eugenides with the expectation that they'd become Thief someday...

Edited Date: 5/17/17 07:59 pm (UTC)

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aged-crone.livejournal.com

They give it to the one who, at the age of one or two days and before being named, steals his mother's earrings.

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badtzphoto.livejournal.com

oh, I like this reason :)

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frosted-feather.livejournal.com

I always figured his mother wanted him to be the thief, which is why she named him that. I also picture him as the youngest child in his family. Perhaps his mother saw that none of his other siblings would be thieves, but she felt "this is the one".

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I wonder if Moira suggested the name to his mother.

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In TT, Gen says he has sisters (we don't know how many). In the short story I linked to above, he learn he has an older brother. In QoA, it says Gen's father, the Minister of War, knew "...that his youngest son, for all his complaints, had the concentration and the patience to be a great swordsman. They were the same virtues Eugenides's grandfather had admired in him." Since he calls Eugenides his youngest versus his younger son, I presume there's at least one other brother. So, we know Gen is one of at least 5 siblings, possibly more, and the youngest boy.

Perhaps, figuring the minister of war had a couple of other sons to take after him, Gen's mother decided to name the youngest one in honor of her father, his grandfather Eugenides, the Queen's Thief at the time, knowing that he'd appreciate having a youngster to train up after him in his old age?

And some cultural traditions don't formally name children until they are past a certain age. Perhaps as a toddler he was already showing promise... enough to warrant the name Eugenides.

Just my two cents!

Edited Date: 5/17/17 08:00 pm (UTC)

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I was wondering too if maybe they wait a bit before naming a child. Perhaps he showed a talent for stealing stuff even as a baby, so when his naming day came around....

In any case, him saying to Sophos, "So my mother was a thief" was a pretty vague non-answer (which makes sense since he was still being deceptive about his identity at that time). There's definitely more to it than that since he has other siblings whose mother was also a thief, but THEY didn't get name Eugenides. So...he basically didn't answer Sophos' question about how they knew as a baby that he'd be a thief.

Choosing a younger child to inherit a title is kind of a risky business. What if Gen hadn't been born? Would the title have gone to one of his older siblings? Or a cousin? Are there Thieves not named Eugenides, despite Gen's off hand comment that they're ALL named after the god?

Also, I'm not convinced that Gen was simply named after his grandfather. He says, "It's closer to the truth to say that Eugenides is a family name and I was named after my grandfather." So, that's not THE truth....it's just CLOSER to the truth.

Edited Date: 5/17/17 08:19 pm (UTC)

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Also, does anyone know if there's somewhere online to read the "Eddis" short story from the paperback KoA (I only have the hardcover)? I want to comb that for clues...

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You can read three of the short stories here: http://sounis.livejournal.com/639373.html

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agh-4.livejournal.com

Ooh! The third brother is named Temenus, and he's a soldier, if I remember correctly! Not sure which book or story that info is from, but I have it in my heart. :)

I like the idea of Moira suggesting the name, or the gods being involved somehow.

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*looks at my obsessively extensive charts and family trees*

...Did I really miss that info about his brother? How? Where?!

(Not to say I don't believe you! Temenus does sound vaguely familiar...)

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According to the character list in the back of the new paperback, Temenus is indeed Gen's brother!

Also....I want to see this family tree.

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He's the one who broke Helen's nose. :)

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I'm forming a clearer and clearer picture of why Gen's family has a reputation for being the black sheep in the Eddisian court. Stealing queens, breaking their noses, dancing on rooftops with the "Queen Thief"... (you just know the otherwise non-frivolous and businesslike Minister of War did this at some point). <3

Seriously, tho. I remember Helen's broken nose. But where in the books does it mention Temenus? Is it in QoA?

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No, it's The Thief. It says, "My brother Temenus had broken her nose with a practice sword when they were eleven." -269 new editions

So, Temenus is also older than him.

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Based on the info available at this time...I'm leaning toward Moira. Too wild of a coincidence to just randomly name a kid with a pre-destined occupation and have it work at brilliantly.

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Gen also has a brother who is the watchmaker, and who made the watch Gen wears in QoA when they are climbing up over the ravine at night to escape the water.

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Wait, Stenides of the impressive biceps IS the watchmaker, duh.

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Well, his mother knew to name him Eugenides because the gods told her to, of course! XD

In Eeddis, the short story, Helen says Eugenides is four and him being named after his grandfather caused an uproar in the palace, so there is cannon evidence he has been called that since birth.

Eeddis - http://sounis.livejournal.com/639373.html

Edited Date: 5/17/17 11:58 pm (UTC)

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People were somewhat suspicious of and embarrassed by the Thieves, correct, and hoping the "tradition" was going to die out...? One wonders, then, what the reaction was when Gen's father, a prince, married Gen's mother, the daughter of the then-Thief. Naming their son Eugenides must've confirmed everyone's worst fears. XD

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Thanks for posting the link! That confirms if then. Drat, I was kind of hoping I'd uncovered another mystery....like we need more.

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It's a fair point that he technically has a title for a name. Like we need another character who doesn't have a name!

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badtzphoto.livejournal.com

I'm glad you started this discussion. Thank you. The comments enrich my rereading of the series.

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savithny.livejournal.com

Gen seems very much like the youngest kid of at least 6. I've always felt that after giving her husband (aka: the King's younger son) plenty of heirs, she knew he was likely her last son and insisted this one be a Eugenedes.

Her father may or may not have been an influence, but I think he was both her baby boy and "one for me and my family."

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Hilariously, I'm rereading QoA right now, and had the exact same thought again...."Wait, is Eugenides his birth name, or did he take it as a title?" Certain that I can't have been the first to wonder at this, I searched Sounis to see if this had already been discussed....only to find that *I* had already asked it here, and then we all had this really interesting discussion. Apparently the answer didn't "stick" because I keep coming back to the same question....

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