The Hands of the Gods in Thick as Thieves (SPOILERS under cut)

[piartemis18.livejournal.com]

Hello everyone! Been watching the community for several years and figured it was time to log back in to LJ and join up proper, so hi. May see some of you Salt Lake folks tomorrow night!

Ever since I finished TaT Wednesday night I've been pondering the references to gods in the book. Last night (as I'm rereading but haven't gotten very far yet) I had an epiphany that has made me want to list everything I can remember (without my book in front of me) and see what you guys think and if you have any thoughts or additions!


So it's pretty universally accepted that the wine merchant is Immakuk and the camel guy is Ennikar.

But I also immediately assumed that the farmer with one rheumy eye was also a representation of Immakuk (it was the one-eye thing). Does that sound reasonable? Else why mention his eye?

The epiphany I had was when Kamet goes back to rescue Costis from the well and IMMEDIATELY almost gets stabbed in the eye by a splinter. It made me think of when Gen gets a feather-shaped divot cut out of his cheek and knew it was a sign of Eugenides' approval. I think the close-to-eye injury (while luckily not actually getting his eye) was also an indication of godly approval for his course of action. I actually did expect someone to lose an eye by the end of the book, I wonder if Costis and Kamet know how lucky they were.

One thing I have been wondering, though, is how Costis was able to recognize Ennikar when he saw him. Was it because of the play? He didn't seem surprised by godly assistance, was it because he had a fever or had he been helped along the way outside Kamet's perception?

I also wonder WHY Ennikar and Immakuk were getting involved. Aren't they Mede gods (or, I guess, immortals)? Why are they helping the Attolian steal a Mede slave? Maybe they're buds with Eugenides and he called in a favor?

Anyway that's all I remember right now.

Comments

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Your last question is an interesting one. My guess is that the gods are in favor of a long term plan that is better for the world, and the Mede empire being in charge of the whole world is not the best option, even for the Mede people.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts! I'm still re-reading, as well, so I'll keep an eye out (er, no pun intended) for the details you've mentioned.

At times, Costis does seem semi-cognizant of the gods' "meddling," so to speak. Recall how he heard (though he didn't see) the god Eugenides speak to Gen on the parapet. I don't know if that's just something he's born with ("maybe it's Maybelline") or simply a growing sensitivity as a result of his proximity to folks like Gen, for whom the veil is thin, as Eddis puts it.

I like the idea of the god Eugenides calling in a favor. :) I was thinking of Immakuk and Ennikar as being something like patron saints of bromance, in which case the god Eugenides might've been like, "Guys, this is totally your department."

By the by, how are people pronouncing their names? My best guess is "I'm a cook" for Immakuk and "In a car" for Ennikar.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Yes! Thanks for making a post on this topic! The thing with the splinter made me yell when I reread it. Also, in this parallel to the underworld story, the miller's dog is Unse-sek, right? (Unse-sek to Costis, Unse-sek squared to the rodents)

I agree that the farmer they meet on the road is Immakuk. I also ended up thinking that he (as the wine merchant) is the one who sets fire to their boat on the river. His and Ennikar's mission seems to be to keep Kamet and Costis together, which usually ends up meaning preventing Kamet from taking off on his own (both as he had planned on the river and in Sukir, and when he believes Costis dead in the well).

So, what they do is definitely helps Gen's machinations, and therefore benefits the old gods of the little peninsula, but I ... don't think I'm ready to say that Immakuk and Ennikar are getting involved for that reason. Because the implications of that would be HUGE! Mede gods/heroes (although maybe, since their stories may predate the empire, they don't have an attachment to the Medes) serving the purpose of the unified Eddis, Attolia, and Sounis to the detriment of the empire pulls the conflict away from politics and into a morality where the empire is so bad that it's own gods answer to the gods of its "insignificant" enemy to aid its downfall. (This is getting dramatic. Does what I'm getting at make sense to anyone else?)

If it's not that, then, I suppose that Immakuk and Ennikar just turn up nudge along relationships that parallel theirs?

Oh. And I think it's cool that Kamet and Costis both pray to goddesses of mercy!

(I hope this makes sense -- I'm typing it very hurriedly. I just think that the god stuff in this book functions differently than in the others, and I'm looking forward to having more discussion about this. And! I still have a lot of comments from the other threads to read, so in sorry if some of this is redundant.)

[piartemis18.livejournal.com]

Yeah I went into the book assuming Costis believes in godly intervention due to his experience with Eugenides (the god) in KoA, but I do have to wonder if Immakuk and Ennikar were interacting with him besides what Kamet saw, and if he would have additional insights for that.

I've been pronouncing the names the same way. Sometimes I say "imm a cook" instead of "I'm a cook" but no real preference.

[piartemis18.livejournal.com]

I thought the Mede ambassador in Attolia said something about how it was the Mede that set fire to all the riverboats looking for Kamet. But...that was near the end of the book, which meant it was late at night and my reading comprehension was not the greatest then. I like the idea of Immakuk doing it because it was the best way to keep Kamet and Costis together.

I did not even think about the dog and Unse-Sek parallel! That is awesome.

Your comment about Immakuk and Ennikar predating the empire is a good one, and may help when trying to figure out their motivations. I can't decide if I want them to be plotting the overthrow of the Mede or just enjoy a good bromance.

It kind of seems to me that Costis and Kamet had some discussions about godly appearances offline, because of the way Kamet looks around the dock for them to appear. But also the time when they would've had that discussion it seems they weren't speaking, so maybe not. I just think I missed the part where Kamet switches from "Yeah that guy looks a little like the Ennikar actor but son you're feverish" to "These guys could show up on the docks with us at any time."

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I REALLY want to know what was going through Costis's mind in the well. Aside from trying to get out, and wondering where Kamet was. (Does Kamet ever admit to him that his first instinct was to run? For all Costis knew, Kamet could have been dead, or captured, or hiding...)

I wonder if Costis had any thoughts along the lines of, "Well, it's true I haven't died from falling... Does the God of Thieves make any promises as to climbing out again, or...?" He may want to discuss the fine print with Gen.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure we'll ever know exactly what the ultimate intentions of the gods are here, any more than the characters do. Remember what happened when Gen tried to demand answers at the end of QoA.

[savithny.livejournal.com]

At first I thought the wine merchant was an agent of Eugenides ... until the next one-eyed man showed up and wound up influencing where they went.

I was also definitely wondering why the gods of the Medes would be interfering in the acts of humans in order to prevent their own leaders from expanding the Empire ... although it could be argued that in expanding the Empire they move further and further away from being the kind of people their gods want them to be?

I think that Immakuk and Ennikar weren't just working to keep Kemet and Costis together though - it wasn't just about keeping them safe, it was actually about keeping them *on the road*. It seems like they could have helped by shortening the journey, but Kamet *needed* the journey to become the person he is at the end.

The Mede gods have plans for Kamet, it appears...

[frosted-feather.livejournal.com]

My pronounciation is "imma-cook" and "enna-car", changing the sound of the I and E from yours. They remind me of Icelandic names a little.

[frosted-feather.livejournal.com]

I like how I was reading one of the stories of Immakuk and Ennikar as fairy tale until I remembered, "Wait, the gods in the other stories were real, so probably these are too!" It was a big revelation because the culture (poetry) was so different that I went right back to the default of assuming they were myths.

Another thing I love about these books is that the gods are real, though most people no longer believe and only some people see them. I shall forever remember that first shock upon reading The Thief in the scene where Gen is in the temple, leaning toward the statute holding Hephestia's Gift, and then realizing that the statue is breathing! Still gives me chills.

And makes me contemplate the supernatural in our own world.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

:o oh dear, maybe we should be talking about something else.

So. The weather and the harvest, amirite?

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you're right, it is a bit of a leap for Kamet.... He does seem to be getting close to the truth when he asks Gen about the wine merchant, and, by the time they leave Attolia, he's already begun his written account, so maybe, with that reflection, he changes his opinion on his own.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I like this a lot; I also wonder if Kamet isn't a better representation of the Medes than the emperor and his ambitions are.

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

Yeah ... window glass is expensive, you know ;P

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

As Aravis and Emeth are better representations of Calormen than the Tisroc. :)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

LOL!

(That remains one of my favorite scenes in the series, ftr. Gen's emotions are so raw and the reaction of the gods so awe-inspiring. Things Get Real.)

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

I'm going for: Imm - a- cuck and Any-car. But I'm always going to sound different to the rest of you, with an English accent.
By the way, what are you all making Kamet into? Kam -et or Ka - mette, as if the end was French?

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

So, what they do is definitely helps Gen's machinations, and therefore benefits the old gods of the little peninsula, but I ... don't think I'm ready to say that Immakuk and Ennikar are getting involved for that reason. Because the implications of that would be HUGE!

Somehow this reminded me of the end of QoA, when the goddess asks Gen, "Would you have your arm back? ...And see Attolia lost to the Mede?" Maybe the gods aren't looking out for their own countries' interests (they betrayed Gen, right?) but for the least loss of life?

Or maybe the theme of gods' betrayal is continuing.

I do like your point about them predating the empire! That makes sense to me!

One last thing - I guess I don't see the gods' presence here as different! See: QoA, "go to bed," and also even Knife Dance, where

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

Eugenides the god shows up because the knife dance isn't being done correctly! Over the course of the series, the veil has been getting consistently thinner.

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

(This is getting dramatic. Does what I'm getting at make sense to anyone else?)

Yes!! I've tried to think about the mythology in the book, as strange as it seems, to be little more than Red Bull for plot. Something that started to bother me in KoA, but was only magnified in TaT was how every culture seems to be secure in their beliefs somehow of their own gods, and have very little conflict in terms of religion. I do wonder why people aren't more... defensive of their gods. Is everyone just in agreement that *all* the gods could potentially co-exist, and merely choose to worship the ones that belong to their pantheon? So far, I haven't seen arguments of "My gods are real and yours aren't!" type of thing. And TaT definitely confirms that all the gods are real.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I really, really liked how different the poetry was!

(...It reminded me, stylistically, of Gail Carson Levine's Two Princesses of Bamarre. I DON'T KNOW.)

That scene in TT is SO CREEPY and SO GREAT.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

“We might someday attain a relationship of mutual respect,” [the Magus] said softly.

First, I thought, I will see gods walking the earth.

Oooh, Gen! XD

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

YES! I love this comparison!!

[piartemis18.livejournal.com]

Since QoA I always just pronounced it exactly like "comet" (with a generic Midwestern American accent) but once we discovered his "undercover" name was Kay I'm trying to decide if I want to change that.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I thought the Mede ambassador in Attolia said something about how it was the Mede that set fire to all the riverboats looking for Kamet.

Yeah, that's how I read it, too. It was something like "You must have been on one of the boats that burned before we could search it."

- but now I'm thinking that doesn't necessarily mean they burned the boats. Maybe they were searching all the boats methodically and the fire messed with their plans.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, I just realized that all of the Mede ambassadors are totally Rabadash!