The Hands of the Gods in Thick as Thieves (SPOILERS under cut)

[piartemis18.livejournal.com]

Hello everyone! Been watching the community for several years and figured it was time to log back in to LJ and join up proper, so hi. May see some of you Salt Lake folks tomorrow night!

Ever since I finished TaT Wednesday night I've been pondering the references to gods in the book. Last night (as I'm rereading but haven't gotten very far yet) I had an epiphany that has made me want to list everything I can remember (without my book in front of me) and see what you guys think and if you have any thoughts or additions!


So it's pretty universally accepted that the wine merchant is Immakuk and the camel guy is Ennikar.

But I also immediately assumed that the farmer with one rheumy eye was also a representation of Immakuk (it was the one-eye thing). Does that sound reasonable? Else why mention his eye?

The epiphany I had was when Kamet goes back to rescue Costis from the well and IMMEDIATELY almost gets stabbed in the eye by a splinter. It made me think of when Gen gets a feather-shaped divot cut out of his cheek and knew it was a sign of Eugenides' approval. I think the close-to-eye injury (while luckily not actually getting his eye) was also an indication of godly approval for his course of action. I actually did expect someone to lose an eye by the end of the book, I wonder if Costis and Kamet know how lucky they were.

One thing I have been wondering, though, is how Costis was able to recognize Ennikar when he saw him. Was it because of the play? He didn't seem surprised by godly assistance, was it because he had a fever or had he been helped along the way outside Kamet's perception?

I also wonder WHY Ennikar and Immakuk were getting involved. Aren't they Mede gods (or, I guess, immortals)? Why are they helping the Attolian steal a Mede slave? Maybe they're buds with Eugenides and he called in a favor?

Anyway that's all I remember right now.

Comments

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Your last question is an interesting one. My guess is that the gods are in favor of a long term plan that is better for the world, and the Mede empire being in charge of the whole world is not the best option, even for the Mede people.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I like this a lot; I also wonder if Kamet isn't a better representation of the Medes than the emperor and his ambitions are.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts! I'm still re-reading, as well, so I'll keep an eye out (er, no pun intended) for the details you've mentioned.

At times, Costis does seem semi-cognizant of the gods' "meddling," so to speak. Recall how he heard (though he didn't see) the god Eugenides speak to Gen on the parapet. I don't know if that's just something he's born with ("maybe it's Maybelline") or simply a growing sensitivity as a result of his proximity to folks like Gen, for whom the veil is thin, as Eddis puts it.

I like the idea of the god Eugenides calling in a favor. :) I was thinking of Immakuk and Ennikar as being something like patron saints of bromance, in which case the god Eugenides might've been like, "Guys, this is totally your department."

By the by, how are people pronouncing their names? My best guess is "I'm a cook" for Immakuk and "In a car" for Ennikar.

[piartemis18.livejournal.com]

Yeah I went into the book assuming Costis believes in godly intervention due to his experience with Eugenides (the god) in KoA, but I do have to wonder if Immakuk and Ennikar were interacting with him besides what Kamet saw, and if he would have additional insights for that.

I've been pronouncing the names the same way. Sometimes I say "imm a cook" instead of "I'm a cook" but no real preference.

[frosted-feather.livejournal.com]

My pronounciation is "imma-cook" and "enna-car", changing the sound of the I and E from yours. They remind me of Icelandic names a little.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

This is bad...but when I read Immakuk, I instantly thought it sounded like, "I'm a cuck." XD I'm such a reprobate. That's how Steve West pronounces it, at least.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Yes! Thanks for making a post on this topic! The thing with the splinter made me yell when I reread it. Also, in this parallel to the underworld story, the miller's dog is Unse-sek, right? (Unse-sek to Costis, Unse-sek squared to the rodents)

I agree that the farmer they meet on the road is Immakuk. I also ended up thinking that he (as the wine merchant) is the one who sets fire to their boat on the river. His and Ennikar's mission seems to be to keep Kamet and Costis together, which usually ends up meaning preventing Kamet from taking off on his own (both as he had planned on the river and in Sukir, and when he believes Costis dead in the well).

So, what they do is definitely helps Gen's machinations, and therefore benefits the old gods of the little peninsula, but I ... don't think I'm ready to say that Immakuk and Ennikar are getting involved for that reason. Because the implications of that would be HUGE! Mede gods/heroes (although maybe, since their stories may predate the empire, they don't have an attachment to the Medes) serving the purpose of the unified Eddis, Attolia, and Sounis to the detriment of the empire pulls the conflict away from politics and into a morality where the empire is so bad that it's own gods answer to the gods of its "insignificant" enemy to aid its downfall. (This is getting dramatic. Does what I'm getting at make sense to anyone else?)

If it's not that, then, I suppose that Immakuk and Ennikar just turn up nudge along relationships that parallel theirs?

Oh. And I think it's cool that Kamet and Costis both pray to goddesses of mercy!

(I hope this makes sense -- I'm typing it very hurriedly. I just think that the god stuff in this book functions differently than in the others, and I'm looking forward to having more discussion about this. And! I still have a lot of comments from the other threads to read, so in sorry if some of this is redundant.)

[piartemis18.livejournal.com]

I thought the Mede ambassador in Attolia said something about how it was the Mede that set fire to all the riverboats looking for Kamet. But...that was near the end of the book, which meant it was late at night and my reading comprehension was not the greatest then. I like the idea of Immakuk doing it because it was the best way to keep Kamet and Costis together.

I did not even think about the dog and Unse-Sek parallel! That is awesome.

Your comment about Immakuk and Ennikar predating the empire is a good one, and may help when trying to figure out their motivations. I can't decide if I want them to be plotting the overthrow of the Mede or just enjoy a good bromance.

It kind of seems to me that Costis and Kamet had some discussions about godly appearances offline, because of the way Kamet looks around the dock for them to appear. But also the time when they would've had that discussion it seems they weren't speaking, so maybe not. I just think I missed the part where Kamet switches from "Yeah that guy looks a little like the Ennikar actor but son you're feverish" to "These guys could show up on the docks with us at any time."

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

So, what they do is definitely helps Gen's machinations, and therefore benefits the old gods of the little peninsula, but I ... don't think I'm ready to say that Immakuk and Ennikar are getting involved for that reason. Because the implications of that would be HUGE!

Somehow this reminded me of the end of QoA, when the goddess asks Gen, "Would you have your arm back? ...And see Attolia lost to the Mede?" Maybe the gods aren't looking out for their own countries' interests (they betrayed Gen, right?) but for the least loss of life?

Or maybe the theme of gods' betrayal is continuing.

I do like your point about them predating the empire! That makes sense to me!

One last thing - I guess I don't see the gods' presence here as different! See: QoA, "go to bed," and also even Knife Dance, where

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

Eugenides the god shows up because the knife dance isn't being done correctly! Over the course of the series, the veil has been getting consistently thinner.

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

(This is getting dramatic. Does what I'm getting at make sense to anyone else?)

Yes!! I've tried to think about the mythology in the book, as strange as it seems, to be little more than Red Bull for plot. Something that started to bother me in KoA, but was only magnified in TaT was how every culture seems to be secure in their beliefs somehow of their own gods, and have very little conflict in terms of religion. I do wonder why people aren't more... defensive of their gods. Is everyone just in agreement that *all* the gods could potentially co-exist, and merely choose to worship the ones that belong to their pantheon? So far, I haven't seen arguments of "My gods are real and yours aren't!" type of thing. And TaT definitely confirms that all the gods are real.

[smallsotong.livejournal.com]

I agree 100% with your observation that Immakuk and Ennikar predate the Mede Empire. The empire is relatively young (Attolia mentions in QoA that her megaron is older than the empire). And I think I remember Kamet mentioning: (1) that he personally translated some of the original texts; and (2) there were missing parts to the poems because one of the ancient tablets (?) was missing. I don't have my book with me so correct me if I'm misremembering. But I think there's good evidence that the tales are significantly older than Medea, even though some aspects of those tales have made it into popular stories/plays within the empire.

Also, the real Ennikar seems surprised that Costis knows of the stories. So maybe even the popular stories are not that widespread within the empire?

I think it’s likely that Immakuk and Ennikar are from an much older culture/religion that existed before the Medes. Maybe its remnants were swallowed up by the Empire, maybe it declined long before the rise of Medea.

[savithny.livejournal.com]

At first I thought the wine merchant was an agent of Eugenides ... until the next one-eyed man showed up and wound up influencing where they went.

I was also definitely wondering why the gods of the Medes would be interfering in the acts of humans in order to prevent their own leaders from expanding the Empire ... although it could be argued that in expanding the Empire they move further and further away from being the kind of people their gods want them to be?

I think that Immakuk and Ennikar weren't just working to keep Kemet and Costis together though - it wasn't just about keeping them safe, it was actually about keeping them *on the road*. It seems like they could have helped by shortening the journey, but Kamet *needed* the journey to become the person he is at the end.

The Mede gods have plans for Kamet, it appears...

[kitsune-rains.livejournal.com]

I thought the wine merchant was an agent of Eugenides all the way until Costis called him by name. Costis got at a glance what I was missing! Costis!

(He's grown so much, I love him.)

I like the interpretation about keeping them on the road! I wasn't thinking of it like that! Immakuk or Ennikar might have been able to make their paths cross with another Attolian's WAY sooner than they did. But if Kamet had been forced to choose at almost any point before Costis' fall/illness, I expect he would have gotten much more creative in escaping...

[frosted-feather.livejournal.com]

I like how I was reading one of the stories of Immakuk and Ennikar as fairy tale until I remembered, "Wait, the gods in the other stories were real, so probably these are too!" It was a big revelation because the culture (poetry) was so different that I went right back to the default of assuming they were myths.

Another thing I love about these books is that the gods are real, though most people no longer believe and only some people see them. I shall forever remember that first shock upon reading The Thief in the scene where Gen is in the temple, leaning toward the statute holding Hephestia's Gift, and then realizing that the statue is breathing! Still gives me chills.

And makes me contemplate the supernatural in our own world.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I really, really liked how different the poetry was!

(...It reminded me, stylistically, of Gail Carson Levine's Two Princesses of Bamarre. I DON'T KNOW.)

That scene in TT is SO CREEPY and SO GREAT.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

“We might someday attain a relationship of mutual respect,” [the Magus] said softly.

First, I thought, I will see gods walking the earth.

Oooh, Gen! XD

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

About Immakuk -- I recently had the bizarre pleasure of reading the Saga of the Volsungs (anyone?), in which Odin shows up in disguise excessivelyoften. You always know it's him because he has one eye and there's a footnote saying "Odin, again," so when the wine merchant appeared I kind of cracked up because my Odin-detection reflexes kicked in. And .... they actually proved to be kinda helpful!

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

LOLing at "Odin-detection reflexes." Guess you could say that's essentially what Gen has that other people haven't got. :D

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I have nothing to add to this discussion except to say that I dearly love the poems in this book. I cannot imagine how hard they were to write but the flow, imagery, everything...just so wonderful. I liked the stories in the other books (most of them, anyway) but the poems are soooooo great.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I loved the way they used repetition.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

piartemis18, I never said welcome! And thanks for starting a great discussion!

[piartemis18.livejournal.com]

Thanks! It's been a heady week (culminating, in fact, with seeing MWT in person tonight and creepily making her touch all my books in lieu of signing them so they are blessed when I lend them out).

I love to see everyone thinking and speculating. What fun we're having!

[anon8.livejournal.com]

Just as the Romans "imported" the Greek gods after conquering the Greeks, but gave them Roman names, I wondered if Ennikar and Immakuk are part of the pantheon of the old gods under different names.

I also wondered what Kamet would have thought of Phresine's story of Klimun and Gerosthenes?

[sgwordy.livejournal.com]

Oh I quite like this idea! It's the only one that I feel I can easily incorporate into the series and my interpretations of how/why gods meddle. I'm *trying* to be open minded to many possibilities but it is really hard for me to get on board with another country's/culture's gods helping their enemies.

[shadowgirlvg.livejournal.com]

Ok, so I have a theory about this. A common trope is that gods and mythical figures exist so long as people remember them. I think it's entirely possible that Kamet is the world's most prominent scholar on Immakuk and Ennikar. He knows a ton of their stories and variations of them. He's helped spread the stories into other languages and cultures. He's basically their bard. Maybe they see him as the equivalent of their most loyal follower and worthy of protection.

Also, on rereading, it feels like Immakuk and Ennikar may have been basically shoving Kamet towards Costis at all times. "He wants to leave the river boat? Set it on fire! He thinks Costis is dead in a well? Okay, give him a pep talk. Oh, but now he needs a rope? Fine. We'll shine a friggin' moonbeam right on it. Damnit! He's still trying to run away! We will make sure he gets lost for HOURS trying to find his way away from the docks!"

You and Costis are going to be best friends forever, Kamet. Whether you like it or not!

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

This is brilliant. It would make so much sense that Immakuk and Ennikar actually exist, in some realm, and would protect Kamet, their biggest fan. It explains a lot.

Also, "You need to get past the gate? Here's a nasty camel to keep everyone away."

gods and goddesses

[2b3g1gs3gd.livejournal.com]

I really appreciate the way MWT takes her gods and goddesses seriously. In my younger days I thought that once I started a book I was obligated to finish it. As a result, I read some really mediocre books. One of the tropes that really annoyed me was where, in chapter 2, somebody pulls down a tapestry (or finds a secret door, or digs up a stone) and lo, there written on the wall behind it is a mysterious message about a chosen one who will solve whatever problem just cropped up in chapter 1.

Does anyone every ask who might have written it there? No. Does anyone ask how that person might have known what would happen in the future? No again. It's often referred to as a prophecy, but there's no prophet, and no deity. Everyone just believes that it must be significant because that's what happens in fantasy books. In short, their lives are being directed by graffiti!

It's true that many fantasy books contain mysterious prophecies, but in good stories, there's always some sort of reason to believe it's real. In MWT's books, we know that the gods and goddesses are real, even if mysterious and often inexplicable. And we can hope that by the time she finishes writing about Eugenidies, we will understand more, I hope without severe damage to all of our windows.

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[oimaacoupon.livejournal.com]

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