Eddis, Attolia, Sounis

Yes, that's the passage I'm talking about....I'm just feeling that there was more to that chance meeting than chance...

From:

Hi, sweetie! Great to see you back! You got married when you were 13...? XD

Before, I comment on your question... If you could please, add a spoiler warning before the cut? Your entry isn't too spoiler-y but the comments will probably get into more detail. Thanks for hiding everything under a cut! :) I will add your post to the list of TaT threads.

I do wonder how well Irene got to know Kamet during QoA? I think we forget that he was there for more than two years. She immeditely knew he was the one who had set fire to Nahuseresh's rooms, so maybe she had some idea of who he was. Also, had she spoken to Kamet before that moment, since he'd got back with Costis? I guess not since she was sick.

I do think there is a difference between walking in the gardens alone and sitting while surrounded by guards and attendants. I thought Irene's objections were more Gen being by himself in the public garden and not the queen's garden which is more secure and for private use of the royal family.

I will say she is more open with him in that scence then she is as a rule, but maybe that's just the grief?

It doesn't strike me as a set up for Kamet, because he had already agreeded to tell them everything he knows, so why manipulate him further?

From:

You got married when you were 13...? XD I know, Books! Ugh, you didn't even invite me??? (Though we haven't had yet met for 5 years... if that sentence even makes sense.)

From:

Off topic, but I will take a moment to express my frustration with security questions when one is a teenager. They're always things like...

What was the model of your first car? What is your mother-in-law's first name? Where was your first job? Name of your eldest child?

None of which apply to a thirteen-year-old!

Apparantly, Elle_Winters got married. For real, not pretend for a security questions, and she didn't even invite us! XD

From:

LOL, yes! That's why I really like the question, "Who's your favourite character?" I won't tell you because it's my *security* questions, but you can all probably guess.

I know, I saw about elle_winters in the Conspiracy Room too. Still pretty bitter about it. meh. =P

From:

Lol, poor Elle! I'm not bitter at all! I swear, I'll forgive not being invited as long as she wore mismatched socks to the wedding.

From:

Hehe, I was just kidding!!

From:

I never pick the 'what's your favorite character' type question, because I feel like I'm choosing between my babies!

Also, to Miss elle_winters, if you're reading this, congratulations!!!

From:

Hello hello! Good to be back, it's like coming home :) too bad I have no recollection of my wedding, maybe if I track down my elusive maid of honor, she can fill me in XD

Ooh, I like your thoughts about Irene's knowledge of Kamet - maybe it wasn't just Gen who thought he'd be a valuable asset...I think I sometimes forget how cunning she can be, too...maybe she wanted the opportunity to talk to him about the passage Gen had mentioned and chose to speak to him in a informal, non-threatening way.

As for why they'd continue to manipulate him? I don't know, but I do know that poor Costis got manipulated again, so I wouldn't necessarily put it past Gen...

P.s. Spoiler tag added :)

From:

piartemis18.livejournal.com

When I read this scene again I definitely believed it was a setup. As you said, these aren't the gardens the queen's usually in and it's widely known that Kamet spends a lot of time there (and has a usual spot, too, right where Irene set up shop).

The purpose behind the meeting, though? I'm not sure. I think Gen wanted them to get together. He "couldn't remember" that poem that Kamet knew and wanted her to hear it from the source, to provide her some comfort. And I also think it was helpful for Kamet to meet the queen, as part of his induction into "the inner circle," as it were.

Maybe part of the point was to not have Gen have to tell him to go to the kitchens (since the whole Gen+kitchen thing is literally a sore subject for him right now) but still make sure he went. I took that part as a very kind/amused gesture on the queen's part, but one that needed to happen anyway.

Edited Date: 5/25/17 02:27 pm (UTC)

From:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Lol, Gen couldn't remember that passage like he couldn't remember the Mede ambassador's name....Gen's an elephant, he never forgets, and if claims he forgot, then you know he's up to something!

Maybe you're right - maybe it was an elaborate setup after Gen got his ear boxed, as an attempt to save Kamet from the same fate...as Relius told us, Gen is quite tender hearted XD

From:

checkers65477.livejournal.com

I didn't think it was a setup to have Irene talk to Kamet, but I do wonder if it was a setup for us, arranged by Ms. Megan Whalen Turner. It was a chance for Irene to say, "when she comes again," or whatever that line is. It was such a strange thing to say about a baby. Unless that baby has gone, I dunno, say, to Eddis to stay with Auntie Helen.

I was totally NOT on the Miscarriage Was a Coverup bandwagon. But I keep coming back to that one strange line of Irene's and how it just doesn't fit with losing a baby to miscarriage.

From:

I'm in the same boat as you. I was very firm about my position about the miscarriage being real. I still am in a way, but the biggest indicator for me that it might not be, is simply how polarized people are about the interpretation of the event. If the miscarriage was real, why would it be written as if there could be two interpretations, right? We know how careful MWT is as a writer. (Unless of course, this is one of those situations where the writer didn't intend to have all these double meanings, but readers found it.) And what is the purpose of it? It didn't serve anything.

I had assumed that the "come back again" might reflect some kind of spiritual belief about souls, but when I looked it up, it turned out that the ancient Greeks were one of the few polytheists who didn't actually believe in reincarnation.

I told booksrgood4u that for now, I'm going to pretend that the miscarriage didn't happen. I mean, I'm going to pretend there's no baby at all, dead or alive. I'm just going to wait it out until the next book, because I'm not sure what to feel about this.

From:

I thought the Greeks did believe in recarnation from what I know of Greek myths. Their version of Heaven was Elysium, correct? Good souls were sent there before being reborn again? Maybe, that was just certain Greek philosophers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation#Early_Greece) and not Greek culture as a rule?

Yeah, I don't think MWT is a false hope for the sake of a misdirect kind of writer. She's not Moffat, who shows you a beloved character might still be alive only to reveal this it's a backflash that happened five years ago. Boo, Moffat!

I do feel like there is more to the miscarrige, otherwise why include that in the story during a chapter that is already full of emtional scenes?

Edited Date: 5/27/17 03:10 am (UTC)

From:

I only saw one resource on it (http://www.allabouthistory.org/ancient-greeks-faq.htm):

Contrary to other pagan groups, the ancient Greeks believed that souls of the deceased were not reincarnated into another bodily form and placed back on earth, but lived on in either hell or heaven as a spirit. Their after life destination was presumably based on how well they lived their life prior to their death.

The other resources I saw seemed to attribute the idea of reincarnation to certain philosophers, like you said, and it didn't seem to be a commonly-held idea at that time.

EDIT: That was just a quick google search (like 1st page). I'm sure those who studied classics would have a more educated answer.

Edited Date: 5/27/17 03:17 am (UTC)

From:

I keep jumping on and off the miscarriage-was-a-hoax bandwagon as I convince and then unconvince myself. I do feel like there must be more to it!

The "when she comes again" lines sounds like a spirtual belief that the baby's soul could be re-born as another child. Alternatively, it could also mean the baby has been sent to a remote corner of the hinterlands to be rasied by Eddisian cousins. However, would Irene say that to Kamet if the later was the case?

From:

And considering how UN-spiritually minded Irene started as originally "Oh, I do believe, but I choose not to worship." (QofA), "her rage at the gods" (QofA)... it's so mind-blowingly full circle for Irene to say "when she comes again" if it is meant, in fact, with spiritual context. Honestly intuitively, I don't think this is the whole picture, her having grown more spiritually conscious through Eugenides's influence. It seems too simple.

Regarding the baby being fostered elsewhere this is a possibility but if it is because there is a threat to the child's safety, wouldn't it more likely be in some far away land of the Greater Continent?.... Isn't there a new character, an ambassador from there that Attolis introduces in TaT? Do they have close ties with the Greater Continent? To this day, I remain intrigued by the logistical travel between all these places during a time of horses and ships... I'm still not even sure how Eugenides got around in the early days with any time efficiency, considering how much he hated horses... did he just walk to Attolia four times a year?

Because, sending the child to Eddis for foster, even if Irene and Eugenides trust Eddis the most with the care of their infant, it seems unlikely that they would send their beloved child to the place they feel so pressed for time to evacuate before the volcano erupts that they would keep their friend Sophos in the dark to his true leadership potential CoK (where they made him believe they needed their help and had to resort to violence to retake his country).

From: (Anonymous)

Some times I think we make MWT's mind too clever and miss a more natural answer. Most women/girls if they want to have children first have a dream of having "a boy" or "a girl". I had great fun as a child playing family and my baby was always a girl I named Cassandra. I grew to adulthood again expecting to have children and the first would be a girl.... regardless of knowing that reality could be different.

I just think they were pregnant and hoped for a girl. When they lost "her", Irene returned to hoping again that that "she" the fulfillment of her hopes and dreams would come again this time for real.

From:

freenarnian.livejournal.com

Chiming in with all the other voices saying they aren't on the Setup Theory bandwagon and yet can't shake the inkling that SOMETHING is going on in the subtext of this scene. I have no idea what that something is, but there's evidence of it to be gathered, examined, and pondered (as we do).

I originally read it at face value, as a character development/closure moment for Irene (assuming the "her" was Irene herself, awaiting the time when she'd bear another child). But every good scene should be doing more than one thing at a time, right? And we know how careful and skillful MWT's writing is. So, after reading it again, with a sharper eye, I can definitely see where the theorists are coming from.

The fact that she ventured out to the very spot where Kamet liked to hang around (rather than using the safer, more private and aptly named Queen's garden) alone suggests a plot of some kind.

Hmmmm.

From:

It does appear she wanted to talk to Kamet, or MWT set up that scene so Kamet (our limited first-person POV) would run into her.

There is SOMETHING there, but I can't quite tell what it is yet. I'm considering jumping on the twin theory... XD

I feel like Sounis has turned into Watson and Sherlock during that one part of the TAB.

From:

freenarnian.livejournal.com

LOL!

From:

Lol, did you see the latest post on mwt's tumblr?

1808-1809 Andrea Appiani - Auguste Amalie de Beauharnais with her daughters Josephine und Eugenie

Ah. A woman in a red dress with two young children, one of whom is name EUGENIE. Nothing to see here. I'm half sure it's just another piece of history and culture she finds interesting and half convinced it means something, if only that she's teasing us a bit.

Edited Date: 5/28/17 08:24 pm (UTC)

From:

celebrilomiel.livejournal.com

It certainly arrives at an opportune time, when the fans have had a chance to read TaT and speculate about the miscarriage. I do think it is worthwhile to note that the original post (http://history-of-fashion.tumblr.com/post/160802478219/1808-1809-andrea-appiani-auguste-amalie-de) of the image was on May 18th, and MWT only reblogged it now, although she has been plenty active on Tumblr since the 18th and it is probable that she follows the History of Fashion blog, given what she has reblogged in the past. She is at the very least teasing us, I think.

From:

I saw that last night! Twin theory comfirmed, guys! TWIN THEORY CONFIRMED!!!!

From:

Where did the twin theory come from? The children in the painting, Josephine and Eugenie are not twins. Does the twin theory have any basis? It's positively banging in my mind, "twins! There WAS a miscarriage, AND there was another twin baby that was sent to foster abroad..." in one death, there was one life... But being a twin soul myself, the theme of twins permeates my life and I'm not quite sure if I'm separating my own leanings from MWT's canon. So where on earth did the Twin Theory come from, if there is one with any basis?

From:

I don't think it has much (or really ANY) basis -- it kinda branched off from the idea that either the miscarriage is a hoax or there's more (one baby more?) to it than that. And then mwt posted that picture at the exact same time as the discussion!

And I agree that the children in the painting don't quite look like twins.

From:

smills47.livejournal.com

I couldn't help noticing that the country they are pointing to on the map is Hongrie, which is Hungary, which is (hm!) reminiscent of Magyar.

From:

You know.... I really didn't feel like there was real grief being felt by the Attolias. (By the way... I just adore how it's a matter of one letter to the name to completely change who of three people it is referring to, now: Attolia = Irene, Attolis = Eugenides, now the Attolian = Costis) So I too have a strong feeling that it wasn't a straight up miscarriage... Was there ever a pregnancy? Was there a pregnancy, a birth and a transference of the child to foster elsewhere? (Hence, the "when she comes again...") Also interesting is how early on, some men are speculating that it was a "he," a son, because they favorite it to be so, whereas Irene, symbol of the feminine's lifelong clash with the patriarchy... distinctly says "she."

I agree it was absolutely a set up... to forge a a connection/initiation of Kamet into the inner circle (the queen essentially went to HIM in the more general palace garden, even while she was ill (could the miscarriage be hiding a real and genuine illness of some other sort?) To the poster who said, perhaps it was Irene this time who Saw something special in Kamet and handpicked him this time and not Gen, but in the same way that Eugenides essentially handpicked Costis (and if there is a real parallel here, how ironic the differing forms of their respective initiations, Costis's initiation being baited by Gen and subsequently punching him in the face in defense of Teleus, and the gentleness and seriousness of Kamet's meeting in the garden with Irene. If there is a parallel, it's exquisite to comparing the two monarch's differing approaches side by side.

I read a brilliant fanfic recently about Costis/Kamet and one observation that I LOVED that the author made was was that Costis treats everybody as equals (See: Punches Gen in the face, also best friends with Aris, who is a lower social class than he) and what results is Eugenides treating him as an equal (See: what results of Costis punching Gen in the face-- even though the ensuing dialogues are always very Gen-with-the-upper-hand heavy, there is a deeper undertone to it that was very man-to-man.

Whereas, as the fanfic goes (sorry I can't recall the title but it's from archiveofourown.com), Kamet, no matter how hard he tries, he is so damaged from enslavement that he can't treat anyone as an equal, he fluctuates between treating Costis like a master/someone much higher than him to "treating Costis like something stuck to the bottom of his shoe")... and...I feel like Irene and Kamet have something along these lines in common, being so damaged and untrusting that they struggle to approach people as equals. (and then you have the beautiful juxtaposition of the fact that they actually are at opposite ends of the social hierarchy... and yet... in a way... equally imprisoned.)

In Irene ... both she and Kamet are both "haughty" but I think it's more in how Irene approaches everyone like a bladed war chariot scythe, even her sense of humor is aggressive, and speaks to no one as an equal as she is (so understandably, after a lifetime of the patriarchy trying to take it from her) protective of her authority over all. And we arrive at yet another beautiful juxtaposition.... I just got done relishing in how Irene and Kamet, very unlikely reflect each other and then the beauty in the contrast of how Irene is prone to very real violence (by her own hands striking them, and ordering people hung, she ordered Gen's hand cut off and watched...) while Kamet has been so extremely, heartbreakingly enslaved against "even looking at a butter knife" that he can't bring himself to ever physically defend himself even in the most desperate situations.

From:

2b3g1gs3gd.livejournal.com

Thick as Thieves has been out for a whole ten days, and already I'm impatient for the next box to come out and explain things that I didn't understand and reveal more.

But I suppose MWT would merely smile and comment that "The novel knows its time."

From:

Oh nooooo.....

:)

From:

I'm glad you made it back here and into your account! I just stumbled back a month or two ago, and it was a very good decision.

Irene, a very private person, sharing something so personal with someone she chanced to meet in the garden seems uncharacteristic

I wondered about this, too, especially when she smiled at him, as Relius's thought about her infrequent smiles and who receives them is tattooed on my heart. Reading this as a moment of character development (among other mysterious and unclear things!), it's a sign of how she's changed the way she expresses emotions in semi-public situations since QoA and even KoA. Kamet notes her physical frailty in the garden, and although the ?miscarriage? clearly had an emotional impact, but I think that I see this as a continuation of her character development/mask falling away. Her role in the country has grown less precarious and stressful since Gen has come around to being king, and her relationship with him and friendships with people like Relius and Eddis probably make her more likely to be open or vulnerable.

I like Lady Jane's reminder that she was acquainted with Kamet for more than two years before this. Maybe, even if Gen did remember the entire poem, she wanted to hear the original from Kamet himself? She could have summoned him for an audience, but meeting in the garden honestly sounds like a more pleasant place for poetry, and perhaps she didn't want anyone besides her attendants to take note of the interaction.

It's so interesting (and, tantalizing? I dunno) for something with this amount of emotional impact to happen to two main characters, and for the most sustained glimpse of it we do see is this gentle moment of poetry and closure with Irene, who was previously defined by her lack of emotion.

From: