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Jan. 6th, 2006 09:11 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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queensthiefWe're getting very close to the publishing date for The King of Attolia now, but Caroline found a great page full of great discussion questions for The Queen of Attolia, so we figured a new thread would be the best place to discuss them - and to ask other burning questions, like 'Who was the Goddess at the end of TQoA?', or to just speculate on the upcoming book.
They can all be found here: http://www.harpercollins.com/global_scripts/product_catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0380733048&tc=rg
So let's start off with an some interesting ones which haven't really been talked about.
When Eugenides retreats to the library in internal exile after his injury, describe his state of mind and how he views himself in relation to the Eddisians. Why is he so embarrassed, and how do these feelings resurface when he realizes the magnitude of his decision to become king of Attolia?
This could perhaps relate to:
What is Eugenides’ reaction when he is informed that Eddis declared war on Attolia in his name? Does this change his relationship with Eddis? Does he like being called a “sacred relic, a hero” (p.133) in the eyes of the people of Eddis?
I picked these because I figured we've talked about the Gods, and Gen's relationship with Irene a fair bit. Do you guys have any thoughts on his relationship with Eddis, and how that might change in KoA?
Also, everyone check out the continuously updated Spoilers thread for more teasers and summaries. :)
They can all be found here: http://www.harpercollins.com/global_scripts/product_catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0380733048&tc=rg
So let's start off with an some interesting ones which haven't really been talked about.
When Eugenides retreats to the library in internal exile after his injury, describe his state of mind and how he views himself in relation to the Eddisians. Why is he so embarrassed, and how do these feelings resurface when he realizes the magnitude of his decision to become king of Attolia?
This could perhaps relate to:
What is Eugenides’ reaction when he is informed that Eddis declared war on Attolia in his name? Does this change his relationship with Eddis? Does he like being called a “sacred relic, a hero” (p.133) in the eyes of the people of Eddis?
I picked these because I figured we've talked about the Gods, and Gen's relationship with Irene a fair bit. Do you guys have any thoughts on his relationship with Eddis, and how that might change in KoA?
Also, everyone check out the continuously updated Spoilers thread for more teasers and summaries. :)
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Date: 1/9/06 08:09 pm (UTC)Now my second question . . . how old do you think Eugenides and Attolia are? And how old was Eugenides when he first saw her dancing in the garden? I'm guessing Attolia is somewhere in her early 20s and Eugenides is in his late teens.
Thanks!
from,
Jessica
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Date: 1/9/06 08:22 pm (UTC)It is the scene where Eugenides & Attolia have climbed up the cliff and are met by Eddis's ministers. (It's on page 197). The chamberlain starts making the introductions and 'only once did he falter, looking over his shoulder. "He said he wouldn't be here," one of the ministers said in a carrying whisper and the chamberlain went on with the formal greetings of the queen of Eddis in absentia.' Who is the minister referring to?? Is he referring to Eugenides--as in Eugenides had told the ministers that he would not be there to meet them at the top of the cliff with Attolia? If that is the case, that gives the implication that Eugenides thought Attolia would have killed him or perhaps tried to escape after he had given back her knives at the bottom of the cliff. But then, why would Eugenides had gone through all that trouble to capture the queen if he was just going to let her kill him? Or maybe I'm just making too much out of what the minister was saying--who knows, he could have just been referring to somebody else who was supposed to have been there. What do you think?
Great question. Um, I have a theory. I think that the person who is being referred to is Gen's father - he appears later, when he lifts Attolia down from her horse, though she doesn't know then whom he is. So I figured it must be him. If it were Eugenides then that's undermine the whole point of the ending, and all of the romance - as you said.
Now my second question . . . how old do you think Eugenides and Attolia are? And how old was Eugenides when he first saw her dancing in the garden? I'm guessing Attolia is somewhere in her early 20s and Eugenides is in his late teens.
*nods* That's what I'm guessing too. Gen has to be young enough to be considered 'a boy', or at least, in the last stages of adolescence, at the beginning of the book, but old enough to make a credible King at the end. So I'm guessing eighteen or so? Perhaps sixteen at the time of 'The Thief'. And - Gen said that he was older than six when he watched Irene right? perhaps eight or nine then, and Irene was maybe eleven or twelve. Which would make her three or four years older than him.
But yes, I'm guessing. :) I'm sure we all see them and their respective ages slightly differently.
Welcome again Jessica!
--Ro
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Date: 1/10/06 01:50 am (UTC)I'd have to agree with this. Gen's father is probably who was being refered to. Although why he didn't want to be there beats me. Oooh, thats another thing I want to see in the next book - how Gen's father reacts to Gen and Attolia's marriage. He hated her, from what I could gather from the last book, and I had the feeling that he was really mad with Gen for being in love with her and all.
I saw Gen as around 16/17-ish (hehe my age!) in the Theif, and 18/19 in the Qoa. Young enough to be childish, but old enough to be calculating and shrewd when it comes to getting want he wants.
Which leads me to an interesting tangent,lol, .In fact, the only part of the QoA that made me a little nervous was Gen's blackmail of Attolia into marriage. Obviously at the end of the book, Gen's love for Attolia and hers for him is what saves her, but do you guys think the ends justify the means? And if she had said no, does anyone think that he would have killed her?I don't. To me, this is an example of Gen's dual perosnalities, like his two sides.
Another thing:Was it the gods who intervened and caused Gen's had to be cut off, or did they use the events humans had created on thier own, and turned them the way they want? If its entirely the gods doing that would absolve Attolia from any blame; and this is obviously not the case.
And in reponse to your previous post Rowana, yes, I agree Helen is like a mother figure to Gen. Does it say how old Gen was when he lost his mother?
Ok, this is my last question in this post, promise!;) How do you pronounce Gen's name? you-gen-NIDES or you-GEN-ih-dees? The last one is what I say.
- Caroline
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Date: 1/10/06 01:51 am (UTC)-Caroline
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Date: 1/10/06 04:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 1/10/06 04:44 pm (UTC):) I love the way we can all read things differently in MWTs books. I didn't get the impression that Gen's father knew he was in love with Irene at all. Or if he did, he was being rather stoic about it (like Pol would have been - anyone else see the similarities between them?). I thought he largely took it that Gen was doing this for the good of Eddis - to eliminate the instability of the Attolian queen, as he said.
I've a feeling he was asked not to be there because the others were worried that he might acuse a scene - she'd mutilated his son after all. So when he turned up, they were worried because 'he said he wouldn't be here'. Yup. :) But again, that's just how I read it.
"In fact, the only part of the QoA that made me a little nervous was Gen's blackmail of Attolia into marriage. Obviously at the end of the book, Gen's love for Attolia and hers for him is what saves her, but do you guys think the ends justify the means? And if she had said no, does anyone think that he would have killed her?I don't. To me, this is an example of Gen's dual perosnalities, like his two sides."
This is really interesting Caroline (*loves this discussion*). This is partly why Gen's loyalty to Eddis the country is interesting, because presumably he would have drowned her (thinking that she was treating with the Medes) in order to protect his country. Though this would contrast with what he said earlier about 'everyone being willing to throw everyone else's country to the dogs'. Hmm, perhaps he knew that it wouldn't come to that? That's why he used the ploy of Attolia (the country) on Irene - to show her how the people would be lost without her, so she had to live and marry him.
And again, I think the only reason Gen blackmailed her into marriage, was because he honestly wanted to stop the Mede from marrying her. At least partly. That's what they meant by 'eliminating Irene's instability', I think. I dunno, I could be very wrong on this. :) It's just - I see Gen as being more forthright (despite all his lies, yes) than the other characters, because at least he's consistant. Bleh, I'm rambling again.
"Another thing: Was it the gods who intervened and caused Gen's had to be cut off, or did they use the events humans had created on thier own, and turned them the way they want? If its entirely the gods doing that would absolve Attolia from any blame; and this is obviously not the case."
Interesting! I think that the only way in which the Gods intervened was in two places - sending moira those two times. Other than that, I think that they simply knew what was going to happen, and sent Moira to tell certain people things in certain places, in order to direct events. I don't think they intervened in any other way. Hmm.
Does it say how old Gen was when he lost his mother?
Wasn't it ten? Fairly young, but old enough to have begun training (as a soldier) then.
"How do you pronounce Gen's name? you-gen-NIDES or you-GEN-ih-dees? The last one is what I say."
:D I say it the same way as you, but as the Eddisians pronounce the country as 'Eedis', I think Gen himself would probably pronounce it the first way. :) He is meant to have a slight (probably Greek?) accent.
Jessica
Date: 1/10/06 05:06 pm (UTC)Duh, that makes perfect sense. I can't believe that never occured to me! Thanks for clearing it up for me
On a side note, here's a overview of the King of Attolia that I found off the Greenwillow publishing site:
(See spoilers thread)
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Date: 1/11/06 04:54 am (UTC)I don't think Gen's father found out on his own, if thats what you mean Rowana. But he must have found out when Eddis found out, which I think was at the council meeting Gen had with the ministers and queen of Eddis, when he was telling them the intracacies of his plan to 'steal' Attolia. I'm guessing that he must have told the Eddisians at that meeting that he planed to marry Attolia; (when she climbed up the stairs and reached the minister of ceremonies he was telling her about the engagement and dowry, and Eddis tried to get him to send 'someone else' remember?)and from that all those who knew Gen must have guessed. It really reveals how brilliant MWT is though-her ability to suprise her reader by telling only half the story like in the Thief.Then after you read the book, you can go back and find all the little clues she left in the first place.
Yeah, thats true, that WOULD have made a pretty embarassing scene for poor Gen to deal with, lol. And thats why I think Gen's father will have to be like Hespira's mother too, in the KOA, cause otherwise it would lead to some interesting family drama.
Maybe he would have drowned her, but I have a feeling it was like how he didn't think about being king. He probably didn't plan what to do if she said 'no , I'd rather die', he just went along with it, hoping she'd do what he wanted her to do. It would have been quite an interesting scene if Attolia had decided to make a break for it, and run, lol.
And of course because he loved her too, but eliminating Irene's instability was probably the reason why Eddis as a country allowed her resources to be used in stealing Attolia, because it was for the common good of Eddis, not just what Gen wanted.
But about the blackmail- was there some other way to get her to marry him? Or maybe it doesn't really count as complete blackmail because Attolia made her 'real' choice to marry Gen after the Medes had saved her and it was Gen at her mercy? And therefore does that make the catalyst of Gen's and Attolia's relationship when he abducted her?
Speaking of that whole blackmail scene, what was up with Attolia telling Gen about how she stood in front of his cell door listening to him after she cut his hand off? We as readers needed to know that, but why tell Gen, especially at that time? It always seemed to me a little out of place with Attolia's whole 'ice goddess' personality.
Oooh, yes, thats true; the Gods knew Gen was going to get captured, but not exactly how he was going to be punished, so Attolia would still have some blame. And with Nahuseresh, they told him where Gen was, but not what to do about it, so we can blame him too.
- Caroline
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Date: 1/11/06 04:55 am (UTC)Sorry about being really oong winded, btu I just have to get this out there, lol.
About Nahuseresh - I'm guessing he plays a fairly significant role in the next book, even if indirectly. Attolia hinted at the end of QOA that there would be some powerplay going on in Medea for the throne. Could Nahuseresh possibly become emperor and then launch a campaign against Attolia to make her pay? I alwyas thought he was an interesting character -ironically, kind of like Attolia herself, in the sense that he was willing to do absolutely anything for his country.
Oh was it ten? So then afterwards Gen decided to become theif of Eddis instead of a solider. That doesn't give him much time to become a really proficient solider though, like it said in the Theif, if the events of Qoa take place when Gen was around 16.
The accents part interested me. If Eddisians sound Greek, then how do Attolians and Sounisians sound in comparasion? And do they all speak the same language, or do they each have their own local language? Heehee sooo many questions!
-Caroline
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Date: 1/11/06 03:51 pm (UTC)I don't think Gen would have killed Irene. He hated killing, and he loved her. And he did give her every chance later in the book to get out of the engagement. In the end it was her choice to marry.
The topics of Gen's loyalty to both queens and countries, and everyone's accents are included in KOA.
You-GEN-i-dees. I listened to The Thief on cassette, and that's how they said it. Also, Am-BUY-i-dees, MAY-gus, SO-fus, and Paul.
~checkers
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Date: 1/11/06 04:55 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 1/13/06 03:06 am (UTC) - Expandno subject
Date: 1/11/06 04:52 pm (UTC):) The more comments the better.
About Nahuseresh - I'm guessing he plays a fairly significant role in the next book, even if indirectly. Attolia hinted at the end of QOA that there would be some powerplay going on in Medea for the throne. Could Nahuseresh possibly become emperor and then launch a campaign against Attolia to make her pay? I alwyas thought he was an interesting character -ironically, kind of like Attolia herself, in the sense that he was willing to do absolutely anything for his country.
I think you're right! He certainly must play a significant role, and your plot idea is great. I'd love to see that happen. :)
Oh was it ten? So then afterwards Gen decided to become theif of Eddis instead of a solider. That doesn't give him much time to become a really proficient solider though, like it said in the Theif, if the events of Qoa take place when Gen was around 16.
*nods* So it does work out. He had enough time to become a good swordsman (he'd probably have started around the age of eight of nine ayway), but not to do much else except complete his training as a thief, and argue with his father a lot.
The accents part interested me. If Eddisians sound Greek, then how do Attolians and Sounisians sound in comparasion? And do they all speak the same language, or do they each have their own local language? Heehee sooo many questions!
:) I'm guessing the Eddisian's accents are like ancient Greek, and the Attolian's and Sounisian's like ancient Roman - they take after the 'invaders', after all, and the Romans would fit the picture. I've learnt a bit of Latin and the accent's fairly similar to my own - British, but I've no idea what an ancient Greek accent sounds like. :) And I'm guessing they all speak their own languages, but most people know the languages of the other two countries. A bit like how lots of Brits can speak basic French, and vice versa. But yeah, this is all guesswork, and it's very much my own view, so we can't know for certain. Perhaps they do all speak the same language. :D
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Date: 1/11/06 04:43 pm (UTC)Your way does make sense too, but I can't really see any of the ministers digesting the fact that Gen loved Irene without wanting to get him checked for insanity. I've always thought that the reason that Gen persented to the Eddisians for wanting to marry Irene was simply the whole political cause - to stop the war and so on. They must have thought he was being a wonderful martyr for Eddis, perhaps making him even more of a hero there than before. Of course, Helen knew that Gen loved Irene, but Gen's father I'm not so sure about. Hmm. He certainly knew afterwards, but before Gen actually tried to blackmail Irene into marrying him, I dunno. :) Either way seems valid to me, I guess we can all take our own impressions from the book.
"It really reveals how brilliant MWT is though-her ability to suprise her reader by telling only half the story like in the Thief.Then after you read the book, you can go back and find all the little clues she left in the first place."
*nods* So true. Her books are made for re-reading.
"Yeah, thats true, that WOULD have made a pretty embarassing scene for poor Gen to deal with, lol. And thats why I think Gen's father will have to be like Hespira's mother too, in the KOA, cause otherwise it would lead to some interesting family drama."
*nods* I've always thought that Gen's father's relationship with Gen must have been at least partly similar to Pol's with Sophos. So yeah, I think you're right. Gen's father would have made a very good silent, stoic version of Hespira's mother. :)
"I have a feeling it was like how he didn't think about being king. He probably didn't plan what to do if she said 'no , I'd rather die', he just went along with it, hoping she'd do what he wanted her to do. It would have been quite an interesting scene if Attolia had decided to make a break for it, and run, lol."
:) I hadn't thought about this, but you're exactly right, that's probably what Gen did do!
I went a bit over! See next comment.
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Date: 1/18/06 06:06 pm (UTC)Yep, I don't think Gen would've revealed to the ministers or to anyone else (besides Eddis) that he was in love with Attolia. Who would have believed him? I agree that Gen would have presented the plan of abducting Attolia as political gain & not an emotional one.
Speaking of which, we know that part of Gen's seclusion in his room was a sham to throw off spies and that he was actually planning to kidnap the magnus (and probably planning to kidnap Attolia as well). At one point Eugenides, Eddis, and the magnus are in a meadow & one of them tells the myth about the girl who went to live in the cave with that guy (sorry, but I can't remember their names), Eddis notices that Eugenides has recently started raising one eyebrow when he was amused & she wondered who he was imitating. We find out towards the end of the book that he had been imitating Attolia. Do you think that during this "seclusion" period, he also went back to Attolia to spy on the queen & plan his next move? We know that he had gone back to spy on her when he was gone those ten days without Eddis knowing & it wouldn't surprise me if he had gone there other times as well.
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Date: 1/18/06 06:07 pm (UTC)from,
Jessica
Went over! Continued. :)
Date: 1/11/06 04:44 pm (UTC):) My only problem with theory is that it suggests that even if Irene had looked like she was going to marry a nice guy, who'd make a good king (and not the Mede who was responsible for Gen's mutilation) Gen would still have blackmailed her. It's like when Gen whispers about her becoming a 'puppet queen', and talks quite viciously about Nahuseresh, if Irene would have been happy with someone else, I don't think he would have blackmailed her into marrying him. Other than for the political reasons.
Um, I haven't explained that very well. :) Hope it makes sense. Basically, I think Gen blackmailed her not because he wanted to marry her because he loved her, but because he wanted to marry her to save their countries. Maybe. I think.
But about the blackmail- was there some other way to get her to marry him? Or maybe it doesn't really count as complete blackmail because Attolia made her 'real' choice to marry Gen after the Medes had saved her and it was Gen at her mercy?
I guess in the bigger scheme of things, it doesn't really count as blackmail. But at the time it did. I'm ont sure about this! Has anyone else got any ideas?
"what was up with Attolia telling Gen about how she stood in front of his cell door listening to him after she cut his hand off? We as readers needed to know that, but why tell Gen, especially at that time? It always seemed to me a little out of place with Attolia's whole 'ice goddess' personality."
:) She was trying to explain to someone other than herself why she felt as she did, I think. Trying to tell Gen that she did love him, but feeling very awkward, and still a little doubtful and untrusting about it all. Did you think she was quite 'ice goddess' in the book? I thought there were a fair number of scenes which did a lot to thaw that image. :) She certainly appeared icy to everyone but Gen.
the Gods knew Gen was going to get captured, but not exactly how he was going to be punished, so Attolia would still have some blame. And with Nahuseresh, they told him where Gen was, but not what to do about it, so we can blame him too.
*nods* That's definitely something which we can speculate on. I mean, even if the Gods did know that Gen would get his hand cut off, can we still blame them for letting him get captured? He did get something much bigger in return at the end. :) It really is fantastic that we can see this differently - I've been corrected on so many mistakes. :D
--Ro
Re: Went over! Continued. :)
Date: 1/12/06 12:27 am (UTC)Re: Went over! Continued. :)
Date: 1/12/06 12:28 am (UTC)This is true; but can we still blame them- maybe, lol. Partially it is their fault, and partially its Attolia's (or the Medes*grrr!*)But like you said, it did lead to the greater good. Thats what the speech for the unknown goddess at the end of the book was trying to say, I think,lol.
I second this, lol. It helps me clear up alot of misunderstandings I had too, and I feel I know the story better now. *grins widely and runs along to the spoilers thread* :D
- Caroline
Re: Went over! Continued. :)
Date: 1/12/06 12:49 am (UTC)Oooh! I posted a question wondering what Eugenides would have continued to say if Attolia hadn't had slapped her, but then I read your comment a few seconds ago and it was like a light bulb going off in my head. I tell ya, I'm going to have to re-read QOA again with all these new viewpoints & ideas! hehehe :)
from,
Jessica
Re: Went over! Continued. :)
Date: 1/12/06 05:00 pm (UTC)*nods* Yeah, good analogy. Sounis and Attolia's languages and accents certainly seem to have blended. I guess because Eddis is a little more isolated in the mountains, they've managed to retain the old religion, and language.
They did probably think he was insane, lol. Or maybe they thought it was Gen's revenge too, like Attolia did, and like you said Rowana, thought tim a hero for it. In any case, it was probably at this meeting that the Eddisians figured out Gen's intentions towards Attolia."
*nods* Yeah, I think you're right. I hadn't thought of them thinking it was Gen's revenge - but that makes sense actually! :) I'm going to have to go back and re-read the book with lots of different ideas in different places.
Could be, but I always saw Sophos and Pol as , oh I don't know, as a father/brother sort of relaionship, with a bit of friendship thrown into the mix. At times Pol could behave like a father/mentor, and then as a friend/brother towards Sophos. Gen's father seemed to me , to be distant and stern; caring for his son in a cautious way,but not a man accustomed to showing his emotions. In both the Thief and the Qoa, it said that Gen's father was a 'man of few words'. It IS nice how we can all see different things when reading; makes for a good discussion, :)
*nods Absolutely. :) It is rather hard to imagine, for example, Gen and his father arguing publicly. I mean, you can imagine Gen shouting in public, but not his father. And yet it says in either QoA or the Thief that they exercised their grief by arguing in front of the whole court. :) I guess there's still a lot of everyone's characters to work out.
"No,no,sorry about that, I meant she had a 'ice goddess MASK' and that in this scene with Gen, it was a little out of place for her to reveal that to him. To be honest, she did love him in that scene , but I don't think she realized it until she thoguht he was dead in Ephrata, remember? Maybe she said that in an attempt to disarm him- like to bring the discussion back on her terms by shocking him?"
Oh! Yes, I'm pretty sure she did realise that she loved him in Ephrata - I think there's a quote from her thoughts saying that. I got the impression that they both knew they had to get married, and they were just talking for the first time without any barriers. Perhaps that's why I didn't find it as shocking. :) I guess you're right, in light of her other behaviour, it could have been shocking. But, I guess since Gen saw past her mask, it didn't make any difference to him whether she was telling him what she really felt or not, he could still see through her mask.
I hate using the word mask, it usually seems a little cliched, but in this instance it seems appropriate. :)
Nice ideas Caroline.
--Ro
Re: Went over! Continued. :)
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 1/13/06 02:53 am (UTC) - ExpandRe: Went over! Continued. :)
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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 1/14/06 11:18 pm (UTC) - ExpandRe: Went over! Continued. :)
From:no subject
Date: 1/12/06 12:34 am (UTC)I always felt Attolia told Gen about hearing him cry outside the cell door as a way to give herself leverage/power over him because although he was the one kidnapping her, she had been the one who ultimately cut off his hand and had seen him at his weakest moment. Remember, Attolia hasn't seen Eugenides face-to-face since she had cut off his hand two years ago and having just been told that she has the choice to be killed or be forced into marriage, she probably wanted to use every advantage that she had. However, I also think the way she told him about it showed her to be more vulnerable than she probably realized because she showed compassion and empathy for him. Or at least that's what I got from it :)
Speaking of which, this is the scene where Attolia slaps Gen to shut him up about becoming a puppet queen and I'm dying to know what Gen would have said if he had been able to continue! I almost wish Attolia would've let him keep on talking instead of slapping him like that! Any ideas?
from,
Jessica
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Date: 1/12/06 01:26 am (UTC)After Attolia slaps him she thinks that the last thing she needs is Gen declaring his love again, so she thought that's what he was going to say next. That made me think that she didn't want Nahuseresh to hear that because she'd already decided to marry Gen and accept Eddis' help in the war. I don't think she realized that she loved Gen yet, but she thought that was the only way she could get rid of the Meades and still rule Attolia.
~checkers
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Date: 1/12/06 01:58 am (UTC)(no subject)
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