COMMUNITY READALONG, PART 5: The Queen of Attolia, Chapters 14-21

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack! It's time for another round of spoiler-free discussion, this time concerning the last third of QoA. I apologize in advance for how much of a blabbermouth I am.

This week we read from “In Ephrata, Attolia sat relaxed on the large chair…” to “And she believed him.”

Favorite line(s): This is a toughie. But, if we’re just going for “singular line(s) I really enjoyed,” I’d have to go with…
“He’s the captain of my personal guard. He’s supposed to guard my person,” Attolia said. (ch. 18)

(Also, “Pol would make him go somewhere on a horse” and “Laughing, he dropped his head onto the bed; then he looked up to grin at Attolia” [both ch. 19]—am I wrong, or is this the first time he grins after that moment in ch. 10 Eddis had where she said she missed his grin?)

Favorite scene(s): Let’s just roll with it!
--Anything involving Teleus and Attolia
--The proposal!
--THE KISS. OMG THE KISS.
--The conversation between Gen and Attolia after the Mede ambush
--The conversation between Attolia and Nahuserfish before the battle
--The first conversation or two between Attolia and Eddis
--Attolia alone in her throne room
--the ending

Thoughts, Questions, Discussion Ideas: Bear with me; each of these chapters keeps competing with the others for FAVORITE CHAPTER EVER, so I have a lot to bring up.

--Attolia and Eugenides
I think this segment of the book finishes the work begun in chapter 12 in opening up Attolia’s character, motivations, and feelings. The whole book is littered with clues to how she feels about Eugenides, but it’s in chapters like 15, 16, and 19 that we really see the impact Eugenides has had on her. My favorite is how she confesses to listening outside his cell—it’s sort of the reverse of how he’s been watching her the whole time (both of them, seeing each other at their worst), and “she knew, even then, that she would turn on anyone who mocked the Thief’s pain” is just such a giveaway, and so heartbreaking. We also have the gems of their personal conversations (“Bastard”/“Not that I know” and “I am very good at groveling”), and of course, the ending.

--Attolia
In addition to “Attolia being in love with Eugenides and not knowing what to do about it and being afraid [c.f. that conversation with Eddis, “the shoe’s on the other foot now”]” we also have “Attolia as master strategist,” the best part of which is the conversation between her and Nahuseresh on the ridge in chapter 18. But it’s all over the place, and I love how smart she is.

Basically, I will spare y’all an essay in this post, but Attolia is one of the most complicated, off-putting, sympathetic, vulnerable, strong, intelligent, amazing female characters I have ever come across. Agree/disagree/discuss at will.

--The gods
Two things I noticed and thought might be fun to discuss: First, Nahuseresh’s reaction to Moira’s visit (ch. 17), versus the kinds of reactions that Attolia, Eugenides, and Eddis have. Secondly, Attolia’s promise of building an altar, and the conversation between Eugenides and the goddess about sacrificing at altars, and the accountability of the gods. Do the gods need sacrifices? Anyone got theories on this?

I would be remiss if I failed to point out something that this community showed me a while ago: The answer to Eugenides’s “O my God, make me less afraid” prayer in chapter 17.

Also, as a side note, to me, Attolia’s “I believe but I do not choose to worship” is one of the most powerful lines in the whole series, and her subsequent willingness to abandon that for Eugenides is one of the most emotional moments in the book.

--Attolia’s servants
Basically, Teleus and Phresine kick all kinds of butt in this section (on his stomach in the long grass, “Least said, soonest mended”), discuss. What did Teleus want to speak to Attolia about while on the boat from Ephrata to the capital? And let’s not forget poor Chloe.

--The prose
I noticed it first in rereading The Thief, but something about MWT’s writing is just so cinematic, not only in the descriptions (although the “slap of ripples” and “the susurration of the water” in ch. 15 are auditorally wonderful), but in the way she places scenes, like the last glimpse we catch of Nahuseresh and Kamet.

--Things to think about, heading into KoA
I have to wonder what Ephrata thinks about being handed over to the Eddisians.

“Some part of him would always be afraid of her. That fear was her weapon, and she would encourage it if she wanted to maintain her authority as queen” (ch. 20): Does this hold true? How does this sentiment evolve?



I think this touches on most of the notes I’ve taken, so I’ll leave these as the basic provisions for the potluck, but everyone else is free to bring food too! Favorite scenes, lines, moments, issues I didn’t bring up, everything is welcome. And for dessert we can have lots of squeeing about the last page. :-D

Comments

[reader-marie.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I'm early to the party this time. Must be because I'm procrastinating more than usual this afternoon...

Warning: I am not always able to talk coherently about the end of this book. Its brilliance has that effect on me.

I must say that the scene between Attolia and Nahuseresh in chapter 18 (the "diplomacy" scene overlooking the battle) is one of my favorite Attolia scenes ever. For one thing, her timing is impeccable. Her speech about her barons as mice is sheer brilliance. And the battlefield machinations are the cherry on top.

I'm not sure I realized until after the first few reads of this book how witty Attolia can be. We get more of it in KoA, when she has an excellent foil in Gen, but her comebacks are almost always perfect. A few favorites: "A dull ceremony," (in reference to the proposed engagement), "Diplomacy...in my own name" (of course!), and "It's not too late for you to end up chained to a wall." I need to find ways to use these in conversation...without scaring too many people...

Basically expanding on what Jade said about Attolia and the gods: Attolia's attitude toward the gods suggests, at least to me, that as someone who is always in control of the situation, she has trouble acknowledging that someone higher up may be involved, too (though she's prudent enough to accept Moira's suggestion about how to capture Gen). Her decision to build an altar at the end is, then, yet another look at how much her love for Gen has changed her, how much she is willing to give up for him--even her own self-image.

In addition, the conversation Gen has with the mysterious goddess at the end is a moment of beauty for me--the moment when he realizes that there are other things he might have lost besides his hand sets the whole past plot in a different light. (Not that I think we should be fatalistic and say he had to lose his hand, but if he hadn't, if he hadn't been caught, the consequences for all three countries and the Mede would have been entirely different, and perhaps worse. Not to mention Attolia's own fate.)

And, in case I forget, the "Some part of him would always be afraid of her" question--if this always holds true, then I feel sorry for both of them. For me, at least, the operative phrase is the conditional--"if she wanted to maintain her authority as queen." Obviously Attolia doesn't want to (and doesn't, period) lose her power, but I think she gains a different view of how to operate as queen in KoA. More of a conversation for next week, but I wanted to just get it out there.

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

DIPLOMACY IN MY OWN NAME. :-D :-D :-D

I love the phrase "her smiled was crooked with mischief" ("her beloved, certainly," she said, "not a lover, I think."), because it's so totally at odds with everything we've seen Attolia do, and yet it's also totally her, enjoying herself with a bit of an inside joke. (Take that, Nahuserface.)

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about the mystery goddess-moment-of-beauty. It's all really well described, and interspersed with Attolia praying he will be ok. It's so intense, too, with the screaming and the broken glass and the volcano vision. I love the moment when he looks up and realizes too. "You have your answer, Little Thief." It's just as refreshing and earthshaking for the reader, methinks.

[tavella.livejournal.com]

Speaking of the mysterious goddess, I got the impression that the reader was supposed to recognize the reference even if Gen didn't, but I couldn't figure out who it was supposed to be. Anyone else have an idea?

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

1)Has anyone else memorized the ending? It makes me cry.

2)Because I am not smart, I shall let the brilliant people of Sounis answer my question:
I don't have a page number, but towards the end of the book Attolia makes a comment about how she had been "engaged and married even younger" wtf? I knew engaged, but MARRIED? Since when?! I thought she killed her fiances, not her husbands!

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

she poisons her bridegroom on their wedding day. so she spends a year in his household, and then a few weeks getting ready for the wedding, and then she poisons him. So they were married, for, like, an hour.

the guy who gets shot through the heart is more like a fiance, inasmuch as he says he's going to marry her. That lasts like thirty seconds, though, so.

:-)

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

I'm a big cry baby, so that whole book and KoA makes me cry :')

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I came across this review of QoA just a couple of days ago and I think it's brilliant. No idea who wrote it (is it anyone here? Anyone?) The description/explanation of Attolia really made me think.
http://thefourthvine.dreamwidth.org/118237.html

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

oh Checkers, that is BRILLIANT.

I am trying to organize myself enough to break down all of the conversations Attolia has in this section, because I didn't do it in the post, but, like, there's SO MANY LITTLE THINGS. Like thinking about Eugenides's smile when she steps in the boat, to looking for him during the battle, to shutting him up when Nahuseresh steps closer, to to to...<3

[spellcoats.livejournal.com]

Dammit I just started QoA like. Thursday (on the toilet, no lie). I wanted to catch up in time for your discussion, but I'm only so far as Gen becoming an amputee. ;__;

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

err..same (not the toilet thing) but Yeah, I'm behind on reading :/

Oh, well at least there's some great discussion to lurk on =]

[tencups-i-swear.livejournal.com]

'And she believed him'

That would have to be the most happy making bit in the whole QoA, at least for me. *sniffles a little thinking about it*

Irene-o-phile!

[dihong.livejournal.com]

I <3 Attolia, always have, always will. I love all the points you brought up, and I love that QoA is about how she becomes better person with him and KoA is about how he becomes more with her.

And I agree that perhaps Attolia thinks at first she needs to keep him a little fearful to rule, but it changes during KoA (remember how she keeps pushing him to become a king and not just a consort?).

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

Ch. 14--"The hook in place of his missing right hand thunked quietly into the wooden hull." Thunked quietly! Classic mwt descriptive phrase! I remember thinking Holy Crap!

Ch. 15--When Gen says "Where there's life, there's hope" is he taunting Attolia? Reminding her of her mistake in not killing him? Sending her a message that it's not as bad as she thinks? When she repeats it back to him later, is she taunting, or sending a similar message? What do you all think?

On pg. 244 where she asks how she had sunk so low as to torture boys, it was a huge turning point in the book, for me. For the first time I considered that maybe I'd misjudged Attolia.

Ch. 15 and 16 are made of love. The part where she wonders if she should have expected dinner guests (she does want to see Gen!) and then thinks of a reason to see him, and comes upon him having the hook eased off his arm is so well done. Later, in the battle, she's still looking for him.

Ch. 17--Ok, I've always wondered about something. Gen and Attolia sail all night, climb the cliffs, ride all day, etc. But the prisoners are marched back to Ephrata in what seems like no time at all. Walking. What's with that?

So many times the word "believing" is used, whether it's Attolia believing Gen ("you could believe me", "do you believe me?") or belief in the gods. Taking things on faith, whether it's faith in gods or other people.

The rest of the book, well, there are too many favorite parts to go into. It took me awhile to appreciate all the ways that Gen baits/teases/pokes Attolia when he's really in no position to do so. She obviously eats that up. He was taking quite a chance by acting that way, though, wasn't he?

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Reply 15: I don't think she's taunting him, although the first time reader may take it as such (more sneaky misdirection.) I think she is trying to tell him she's not going to kill him, like he didn't kill her when she accepted his proposal. I don't think he gets it though, until he sees the earrings.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Oh, and Checks, I sent you that audio chapter. Check your e-mail.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

This section really fleshes out Irene, and I believe it was during this part that I first fell in love with her. She is now one of my favorite female characters of all time, coming in at a close second with Veronica Mars.

This section has some of my favorite scenes. Gen's and Irene's first date, Nahuseresh getting the boot, and the lamb on tha altar scene.

And I've found I love everything Attolia says!

"Nahuseresh, if there is one thing a woman understands, it is the nature of gift".

-p298

"He had to be forcibly dissuaded from strangling his son."

-p304

"...and he uses cheap hair oil."

-p306

"You look like a little vulpine yourself."

-p308

"You were fed."

-p316

"Rare is the man whose gods answer him."

-p351

She does indeed have a very witty sense of humor. Just like Gen.

Little things I noticed...

"How is your head, sir?"

"Gray."

-p304

So, so, so... The minister of war does have a sense of humor, however dry it may be. Maybe Gen is more like him then one might think.

In the privacy of her rooms, she paced.

-p325

Ahaa! So she does pace. I don't remember her pacing before this scene. Maybe she only paces when it's about Gen.

On a side note, I was wondering if anyone has ever made an icon of this quote...

"Power. What men like most in themselves and least in their women."

That's a perfect Irene line, and I would love to have an icon made out of it.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

"Gray." Yes. He's funny, and he's kind of rebelling by not answering her (lady who mutilated his son!) question. AND, and I just thought of this, he could be rubbing it in that her soldier kicked a poor old gray-haired soldier. ... or maybe not. Anyway, I likes it.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

"He'd made a particularly nice sacrifice at the altar of Aracthus before he'd stepped into the chasm of his watercourse..." pg. 355. Wonder what was Eugenides's sacrifice?

If you haven't listened to aged_crone's readaloud of the last chapter of QoA, (http://www.westwingepguide.com/sounis/queen/Chapter_21.mp3) it is very nicely done.

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes. Hm.

...another kid? (AS IN BABY GOAT, SINCE YOU ASK, -- although it's still a young mammal's life you're taking) ((Sorry, that was off-color, but I didn't want to confuse))

The only times sacrifice is really mentioned (That I remember...) is when Gen makes the altar at the end of the part we just read, and when the Eddisians are "up to their eyeballs in sheep" during the beginning of the war and Eddis says that they'll have to slaughter them ... for sacrifice or to feed the people, I don't know.

If they have "prize calves," maybe they sacrifice them? There can't be too many other large animals up there in the mountains, besides humans (but somehow I think human sacrifice would have been mentioned. I mean I HOPE)

...Why is it always baby animals, anyway? (in the world, not in these books. Purity?)

this will attempt not to be another long comment of doom

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

Ok, for the other weeks my system was to dog-ear pages (yes, my poor booky!) that had MOMENTS OF EXCEPTIONAL GENIUS OR DISCUSSABILITY, but that is SO not going to work for the end of QoA, because I folded over the edges of almost every page. Yup. It's all good, folks. I shall, however, bring a few choice delicacies to our happy potluck (thanks for the analogy, Jade):

1. Eddis: "So long as she is in the megaron, I think the Mede, on his own, will not complicate Eugenides's plans." (226 paperback hookybooky) No. He didn't. Not on his own. With Moira!

2. When, at the beginning of Ch 15, Attolia notices that Gen has grown, she thinks "her spies either hadn't noticed or hadn't thought to tell her." It's a sign that she's noticing things about him that other people might not. It's love!

3. Her first reaction to "I love you" is laughing. "Attolia laughed. Eugenides flushed in the dark." (247) ... What do you think he expected? This is the first time (I think...) he's confided this to anyone, and she laughs.

4. After the Fabulous Stairclimb of Awesome, the chaimberlain gives Attolia dry shoes. "the queen silently curled her cold toes in relief." (255). I think this is one of the lines that really shows that Attolia is human. It makes me think "oh, poor Attolia! She has cold toes!" and the first time I read the book it made me more sympathetic toward her.

5. After they start winning the fight, the Medes yell "Peace!" and, after conferring with MoW, so does Eugenides, to surrender. This is strange, now that I think about it. Because Peace is standing there next to her shot-down tent guard (RIP <3), watching it all.

6. The Poignant Painful Perfect Paragraphs of Powerfulness
These are from about "She gripped his chin" (she does that a lot, doesn't she?) to about "being defenseless didn't preclude attack." Pages 267-268. That whole bit is just so powerful. It includes "Dead is dead," "No hope that she would be something other than ruthless and cruel," "moon's promises," etc. Gosh, It's so powerful! Every time I read it, wow wow wow.

Ok, and the rest is really amazing too!
AAAAAAAAAAnd some favorit lines:
"I love you," he said. "You could believe me"

"Yours, mine, what matter? ... Perhaps they've made a treaty, an example to us all." Nice save, Nahuseresh. You're so funny. ....you buffoon.

"What remains of his life, he spends with me, do you understand?"

"Nahuseresh nodded. He could see the wisdom in that." (294)

Pointy beard hair oil, of course. You all know what I mean. :) :)

"You charged off in a haze of glory to chase the vile Mede from our shore, and you never gave me a thought until they were gone."

"I think," he said slowly. "I think I didn't think this out... I didn't think about being king."

"That's why we know so much about the building. There were drawings in your library until the magus came and I moved them out." ... Gen, you secretive viper!

"What kind of fool would I have to be to believe it was anything else?"
"I wouldn't have allowed it," Eddis told her.

Glancing at Eugenides, Eddis thought he walked through the room as if it were so familiar as to be unworthy of his attention. Perhaps it was.

He was nothing, the smallest particle of dust surrounded by a myriad of other particles of dust, and put all together, they were ... nothing but dust.

She tilted the ceremonial offering bowl and listened to the musical jingle of the gold and silver disks carved with praise and supplications as they slid across the metal bottom of the bowl. .... awesome sentence and imagery!

"Window glass is expensive, do you realize that?"
"Yes, Your Majesty," he said meekly.

Sorry I failed to respond to the actual discussion things you brought up, everyone.

ooh, also: What did you mean by "I would be remiss if I failed to point out something that this community showed me a while ago: The answer to Eugenides’s “O my God, make me less afraid” prayer in chapter 17."???

maybe this icon should say "I love your chin"

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

FIRST THINGS FIRST, BEFORE I START GOING THROUGH ALL THIS AWESOME:

omg I was totally going to throw in something about how Attolia has a fetish for Gen's chin. There's so much going into that gesture, every time she does it: it reinforces the fact that she's taller than he is, and older, but it's also a very intimate gesture, the closest they ever come, and she's able to strip away his defenses utterly every time she does it.

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that the first thing that made me obsessed with these books was Attolia. She is so similar to Azula, that reading QoA was like reading Azula getting a happy ending...

[styromgalleries.livejournal.com]

Ooh! Ooh!

The scene where she tells Chloe to go fetch something for her totally reminded me of the poor attendant with the cherry pit in Sozin's Comet. And then I just started thinking: Attolia=Azula.

OFF TOPIC BUT I NEED MORAL SUPPORT.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

My sister was borrowing my copy of QoA these last few weeks. When I saw her last weekend I brought KoA with me so that she could borrow it. Trying to be courteous, I didn't badger her about what she thought of the book, and she was actually not there when I had to leave, so I passed KoA (and The Perilous Gard) on to my brother-in-law with strict instructions to pass them on to my sister, and to not forget them or lose them.
I'm home again this weekend and I found both QoA and KoA sitting by the computer. I'm suspecting that this means that my sister didn't like QoA and didn't want to read anything else in the series, so she only took The Perilous Gard.

I don't know why she couldn't have just told me her opinion, though. I know I've been pretty frank about books I like and books I don't like with her. Maybe I've talked badly about books she likes and she was hurt and didn't want to do the same to me?


Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions. However, its not as if she forgot about the books, because then KoA and QoA wouldn't be together with TPG the only one taken.


Well, this means that I'll have KoA for our discussions.
Though I'm failing to be as happy about it as I would be otherwise.

Joins support group

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Rosie, I'm just back from a trip to visit some college friends. They have an 11-year-old who said, "You LIKE Megan Whalen Turner?" ('cause it...came up...somehow) and proceeded to tell me how much she hated The Thief. Of course she had to read it for school. I told her Megan's story about the kids who write to her and don't like it, and how she says that's okay. But then I tried to hook her big brother by explaining that the book is NOT about "a magic stone that makes you immortal" (the 11-year-old's take on it) but rather about geopolitics (his current favorite interest). So I think I might have made a sale, but I am sad the 11-year-old obviously just read the book too young. :(

My point, and I do have one in here somewhere, is that sometimes you read books at the wrong time. It could be your age or your mood or something hard to define, but even if you might love the book in other circumstances, it just doesn't work.

...Although isn't it also possible that your sister read both books really, really fast and is already done?

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Gosh, y'all are so smart I really don't have anything to add. I read your comments and think, "Yes, yes!" and "Omg, so true!". This book really is Made Of Awesome.

I love all your comments!

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

I think one reason Attolia clings so long to that idea of using fear as a weapon is that she knows she loves Gen but doesn't yet believe he loves her. I think she is terrified that he'll guess her feelings and use them against her. She feels vulnerable and she NEEDS that weapon, she thinks, or she'll lose all her power, both political and personal.

To me the "some part of him would always be afraid of her. That fear was her weapon, and she would encourage it..." bit demonstrates exactly why the end of the book is there. The story could have ended with the Medes being driven away, with Attolia marrying Eugenides -- we already know she loves him. But there had to be more. Gen had to see the gods at work and understand what his loss had won him. But Attolia had to have her moment of humility ("give him back to me") and I believe it's right in that moment that she stops wanting him to be afraid of her, that she stops wanting it to be all about power, that she starts to believe him.

[elle-winters.livejournal.com]

Very well put Philia!

[mortalasabee.livejournal.com]

This section of Queen is just so amazing I can't think of anything to say about it without writing an essay. It is so complex that every single time I read it I have new moments of magnificent enlightenment. Everyone else has made many really great comments already, so I will just add one.

I am very interested in Eugenides as a pacifist. I had wondered how he changed from being horrified at killing a man in TT to fighting and killing very efficiently in the battle with the Medes in Queen. This time through, though, I noticed this:

"Eugenides pressed his opponent. When the man flinched backward, he stepped into the range of the other Eddisian, [the MoW] who spitted him neatly, then turned back to his own attacker." 262 new edition

So so so, Eudenides is not actually killing anyone. Of course he is not a true pacifist because he is still helping to kill them, but he is still sticking to his own No Killing moral code.

Thoughts?

And sorry I'm a little late. I only just finished the book.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Perspicacious. That's what you are. But in TT, didn't they say that vow about killing and such had to be retired, because of the fight at the base of the cliff? So maybe that's relaxed a bit, with exceptions made for war and such.

baa

[zougla.livejournal.com]

OK, someone may have mentioned, and who knows who will read this far down, but...

I love it when Eugenides bleats like a goat after being called a "one-handed goat-foot." Wahahaha! Awesome.

This far down, it's pure congealed, condensed awesome!

[agh-4.livejournal.com]

YESSSSS!

I love that even in the ... tense, political, emotional situtation, he just can't resist it.

So cool.