Gen-types

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

I feel like maybe we've discussed this before but, well, we like talking about the same things again sometimes, right?

So recently I read a book which was OK, but I didn't love. When trying to figure out what exactly wasn't working for me, I realized one of the big issues I had--I felt like the author was trying to make one of the main characters into a Gen-type character, but was failing.

(To be completely honest, my first thought was, "This book would just be so much better if it was about Lord Peter instead." I think I'm due for a LPW re-read.)

So I started trying to figure out why I felt like the character failed to live up to the "Gen" type.

I started by trying to think of successful Gen-type characters. I know some are missing from this list, but these are the first I came up with--

Gen (obviously)
Lord Peter Wimsey
Sir Percy (the Scarlet Pimpernel)
Miles Vorkosigan
Chrestomanci
the Doctor

My list stopped there, even though I KNOW that I've read other books with this character type--help me out here, guys.


Then, I tried to decide what characteristics made this mold. The characters I listed above fit most or all of these characteristics:

clever and witty--quick thinking
intelligent--long term thinking
people skills--good at reading and understanding people
Aristocratic/privileged background, usually with a sense of style to go with it
Brave--sometimes in almost a daredevil way
Stick to a code/personal beliefs
Sometimes works in disguise or with another identity (not always literally)

That's all I have so far.

So what I'd be curious to discuss are these questions:

What other characters would you add to this list, and why do you think they fit? (Particularly if they're from books I haven't read ;-) Would you take away any I listed?
What characteristics would you add to this list--or take away from it?
Why do you think this character type appears repeatedly?

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Wow. You hit so many of my favorite characters and the reasons why I love them.

Naturally, I also respect Gen, Lord Peter Wimsey, Miles Vorkosigan, and Sir Percy for their good sense in appreciating women who can match them. (Sorry, I have yet to read Chrestomanci's exploits or watch the Doctor's in any of his incarnations. Heresy, I know.)

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

That's a great one. And now, you've reminded me of a character I forgot to put on the list--Peaceable Sherwood! I knew I was forgetting some.

(I enjoy Dr. Who generally, but some episodes and even entire seasons just aren't that great IMO. So maybe I'm the heretic. No judgement here :-)

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Albert Campion, from Margery Allingham's mysteries! Definitely fits your list of characteristics...

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Tell me more! Is this something I need to add to the TBR list?

[imbecamiel.livejournal.com]

Oooh, man, I know there are more that fit the general profile, but I'm blanking at the moment... Aside from the fact that Robin Hood in many incarnations seems to fit pretty well?

I just have to say, though, that I am beyond gleeful to see not only Lord Peter but ALSO Sir Percy on your list. :D Sometimes it seems like no one remembers/loves the SP any more. Despite the faults of the books themselves, I am still so very much in love with Sir Percy.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Love for Sir Percy is very much alive in our household. I'm not supposed to know this so don't tell anyone, but for my birthday tomorrow my husband got me the DVD of the 1982 Scarlet Pimpernel. So excited.

And he's not supposed to know this (he found out accidentally), but for Christmas I got him the piano music from the musical.

And since our libraries of course combined when we got married, we have more than one copy of the book on our shelves.

:-)

Have you read any of the sequels?

[thnidu.livejournal.com]

Another characteristic that several but not all of them share: physically unimpressive and/or damaged:

✔ Gen
✔ Lord Peter Wimsey
? Sir Percy (the Scarlet Pimpernel)
✔ Miles Vorkosigan
✘ Chrestomanci
✘ the Doctor

✘ Albert Campion

I haven't read The Scarlet Pimpernel, at least not since high school, longer ago than I feel like thinking about.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

No, I don't think Sir Percy would fit that one--he's supposed to be very tall and strong. However, I think its definitely one that could be added to the list :-)

Damaged in a different way...

[(Anonymous)]

It's not a very large part of the books, but Lord Peter has been affected by "shell shock"/PTSD basically during his time in the War - I forget which book it is that this is discussed, but it does become more significant in the last few volumes.

[ejmam.livejournal.com]

The protagonist in Graceling by Cashore. Hari in Robin McKinley's Blue Sword.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

I haven't read Graceling but I keep hearing about it. I may have to try it.

Its been so long since I read the Blue Sword. Time to find my old copy. I bought it when I was in fifth grade, in a boxed set with The Hero and the Crown and Spindle's end. I was just starting to collect my own library of books then, those were among the first... ah, the memories :-)

[lizzyazula.livejournal.com]

Has anyone here ever read the Bartimaeus trilogy? It's been years since I've read it, but I always thought that the pairing of Nathaniel and Bartimaeus were a lot like Eugenides. Bartimaeus is snarky and witty and has all of Eugenides' good, confident qualities, whereas Nathaniel is high handed, arrogant, and very self conscious about his dress. Together they could give Gen a run for his money, I think.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Interesting! I never thought of a combination of characters going on the list, but I think it works :-)

Years ago I read the first of the Bartimaeus books. I never went on because while I LOVED the Bartimaeus chapters, I had a really hard time getting through the Nathaniel chapters. They were just so boring. :-\

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I read The Scarlet Pimpernel at a formative age, and ever since then, my all-time favourite fictional character type has been the super-clever schemer, ten steps ahead of everyone around them, who doesn't care if they get badly misjudged and underestimated by everyone around them - more, who often deliberately causes people to misjudge them, for Reasons. (And if the viewpoint character is one of those who misjudges them, all the better - as long as we get an awesome revelation scene later.)

They're usually witty and eloquent, and insouciant in the face of danger: the sort of person who would calmly flick a speck of dust from their cuff when held at sword point by their arch-nemesis. They're often actors; even if they're not in disguise and playing a part, their words and actions are usually deliberate, done with their audience in mind. You don't often get to see glimpses of their true feelings. Inscrutable could be a word for them. They would make an excellent super-villain, if they weren't good at heart.

High up on my own mental list of this character type is Francis Crawford of Lymond from Dorothy Dunnett's Lymond Chronicles. Her Niccolo should probably be on the list, too, but I never fell in love with him in quite the same way as I did with Lymond.

There's also Peaceable Drummond Sherwood from The Sherwood Ring by Elizabeth Marie Pope. The male leads of several Sherwood Smith novels have strong elements of this type, too... but this comment is already getting far too long, so I won't ramble on any further. :-)

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Hey, theres no problem with long comments :-)

I like your description. I also read The Scarlet Pimpernel at a young age (the Readers Digest version, literally). It was one that I could finish in a few hours, so some Saturdays I'd grab it off the shelf and go hide in some out of the way place and finish it in one sitting, again. Now, I see the flaws in the book, but then it was just a good story, and a good escape.

I hear so much about the Lymond books, but... I had such a hard time getting through the first book. The story and characters were indeed awesome...once I finally got through them. I felt like I just had to work way to hard too understand what was going on. I know there are companion books with translations and such, but I guess I just feel that those shouldn't be necessary... I don't think I'm a completely lazy reader, but I guess there is a certain kind of work that I like to do as a reader, and looking up translations and locations and historical things isn't the kind of work I'm interested in. I like to be given enough in order to understand, even if it isn't all spelled out and obvious. I finally got through the book on my 3rd or 4th try because I said, "I'm just not going to understand a lot of what is going on, but I'm just going to keep reading anyway."

Then again, it has been years since I read it. Maybe I'm due to try again. And I don't mean any offense by rambling about my experience reading the book, please don't take it that way :-).

Lymond should definitely be on the list! And Peaceable. I want to re-read Sherwood Ring again too...

Speaking of Sir Percy and Sherwood Smith's books, I once re-read the Scarlet Pimpernel and then Crown Duel right after. There are a whole lot of similarities between Sir Percy and Vidanric, and Meliara and Marguerite, even just physically. It was interesting :-)

I feel like these Gen-type characters tend to be so interesting/influential that they dominate their stories, even for several books (Gen, Lord Peter, Miles, Lymond, the Doctor). I think it's interesting that both Vidanric and Peaceable are more secondary characters, rather than the primary character. They're still interesting to read about, and they're a big part of the story. But the story is different because its not only about them. Maybe? I'm just rambling.

[elvenjaneite.livejournal.com]

Telemakos, from Elizabeth Wein's Aksum series. Also Howl from Howl's Moving Castle.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Yes and yes! Another two favorites.

[elouise82.livejournal.com]

You know, I never would have thought of there being similarities between Gen and Lord Peter, but now that you mention it, definitely! And Sir Percy, absolutely. The disguises, obviously, but also in playing the long game. Wheels within wheels, so to speak.

I think Thomas (aka The Mysterious Marquis) of the Kate & Cecilia books would strive for all those traits, but unfortunately has a tendency to miss the mark too often (mostly by leaving Kate out of his calculations).

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

I guess for me its easy to compare Gen to Sir Percy, and then Sir Percy to Lord Peter...

Also, I have only ever run into ONE Lord Peter fan IRL. Thank goodness for the internet bringing like-minded people together. :-)

Kate and Cecilia books... as in Sorcery and Cecelia? I only ever read Sorcery and Cecilia, are there sequels?

[jesusphreaq.livejournal.com]

Sage/Jaron, of course, from The False Prince, which is eerily similar to The Thief... After much mulling it over, I actually like The False Prince more than The Thief, but I hate the rest of the Ascendance Trilogy, and adore the rest of the Queen's Thief series.

I second the person who mentioned the Wizard Howl from Howl's Moving Castle. :)

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Another good one. I felt OK about the False Prince, but didn't love it enough to read the others. It took me a couple re-readings to really love the Thief :-).

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I see Peaceable, Howl, Sir Percy, Lord Peter and Thomas have all been mentioned already. So basically I just approve of this entire thread.

Oh, don't forget Sherlock Holmes. The reason I thought of him is because I just finished reading Jackaby, and the title character was basically a blend of Sherlock and The Doctor, which of course made it fun, if a bit too familiar at times.

He's not a main character, but there's a shadow of this type going on with Finnick Odair in HG -- in that Katniss initially can't see past his witty pretty-boy Capitol pet persona, to the real person underneath (he's eventually revealed to be fragile, sweet, and clever enough to have been undermining the Capitol long before Katniss caught on).

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Its interesting to me that sometimes, this character type can be so exciting and fresh, but sometimes you find one and think, "You're basically just trying to be so-and-so, but s/he did it better." Maybe? Some authors are just amazing is all. :-)

Admission... I never read the last Hunger Games book. I read the first and was like, "Well, that was violent. And a bit love-triangle-y. I'm not sure I really liked it." Then people told me the second was better, and then it was WORSE and I said, ok, I'm done with this.

But I'll take your word for it that thats how it happens.

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Can I just say how much I love Sounis and Sounisians, yet again? I am not on nearly enough, but it's so nice to drop in and "see" old friends and "listen" to them be so utterly brilliant. I don't express myself well, but this whole thread had me nodding my head excitedly, yelling to myself, "Yes, yes, and yes!".

P.S. I guess I too will have to try Lymond again, hahaha!

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

I feel the same! I've only been lurking recently, but I thought, hey, I may as well ask this question and see what they have to say. Sounis does not disappoint :-)

[heather mulhern (from livejournal.com)]

I haven't read so many of these books! And so many I wasn't even aware of (only a few were already on my scattered mental to read list). As I've already enjoyed many books I've found endorsed in this community, it looks like I have some reading to do :)

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Welcome to Sounis, where you thought you would get to discuss books you've already read, but instead you end up with a list of books to read...

[mikkaybear.livejournal.com]

I think Sophronia from Gail Carriger's Finishing School series fits all the above requirements! She's not as privileged as some, but she more than makes up for it in gumption. Plus, who doesn't want to read about a floating dirigible spy school above a Victorian London filled with dandified vampires and fuzzy werewolves?

Alternatively, Carriger's original series, the Parasol Protectorate, has Alexia. Who is pretty much exactly the same as Sophronia, except for a couple details. (I like both series, even as I acknowledge they're basically the exact same character types plopped in different years.)

...I need to stop coming here when I've already got four dozen books I should be reading. It either makes me want to reread MWT, or hunt down all the books you guys recommend!

But back around to Gen: I think the interesting thing about Eugenides is that he's also one of the "fated"--the "gods-touched." Not perhaps to the extent of Harry Potter or, idk, Jesus, but he's very much aware of the gods as they are of him. That's more of a world characteristic than anything, something replicated in setting rather than person. I think the roundness and fullness of a literary world can have as much impact on us as a character can, because it's really about how the two interact and buffer and pull on each other.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Another series to look for... thanks? ;-)

The gods involvement in the stories is I think something we all appreciate about QT. Its hard to find quite that same thing in other books, I think.

[trans-element.livejournal.com]

Cyrano de Bergerac has a lot of the characteristics you describe, especially wit, reckless bravery, and of course working in disguise.

But I don't think of Gen as witty or verbally brilliant in the same way as some of the other characters you mention.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

Cyrano de Bergerac is one (of course!) I've heard of, but I've never read it. :-) Nice addition!

No, Gen isn't as witty as some, but he is quick thinking and careful with his words. And I think the books themselves have witty lines, so I feel like they appeal to the same audience even if Gen himself isn't the witty one. Hmm.

And I did say the characters have *most* of the characteristics I listed, not all. :-)

[annikah.livejournal.com]

I'm a long-time lurker and I just have to say, I love posts and discussions like these! Not only for the insightful conversation between peers, but also because I now have some more books to add to my list...

Someone above mentioned The False Prince. I read the first book and felt that it was like The Thief, if not as polished, but was then disappointed to find that the following two books were also in first person. As some people have said already, most of the characters of this Gen-type are seen through the eyes of other characters. With a character like this, it is difficult to sustain a first-person narration without the character "telling" everything (as was problematic with Prince Jaron; once it was revealed at the end of the first book that he was this great mastermind, he mostly just told the reader what his plans were for the rest of the trilogy) and eventually boring the reader. When seen from someone else's point of view, someone who isn't ten steps ahead of everyone else, we keep the sense of mystery and surprise. For instance, would we think of Sherlock Holmes to be as brilliant as we do now if his cases were told from his point of view and not Watson's?

But the change in narrator and between first- and third-person is something I think MWT uses to great effect in her novels. We're introduced to Gen in the first person; then it switches to third person, but still his point of view (some of the time); then we see him through Costis's eyes, in third person; and then we have a mix of first-person (Sophos) and third-person (still mostly Sophos, but we see Gen). We end up seeing Gen from a variety of perspectives--and that only adds to his mystique because we don't know what he is thinking all of the time. I only wonder what MWT is going to do with the next two books!

[agentmaly.livejournal.com]

Ha! Sherlock Holmes from his own perspective could be very amusing if done right. The TV show Sherlock of course does some fascinating things with showing us Sherlock's mind in action, but if he were the actual narrator, I think it could be brilliant for a story or two (though no, likely unsustainable over the breadth of the Sherlock Holmes corpus, and I agree that he wouldn't have achieved such lasting popularity - reading the extended adventures of a man very much in love with his own genius who chooses to share with us in a cool, rational, and logically-organised way his litany of successes would not be terribly riveting without clear narrative irony or a robust foil).

But for a jaunt - I'd love to see him casually assess Watson's afternoon as he walks in of an evening, answer his correspondence as well as read it, maintain his files and perhaps give us a window into his filing scheme - I wonder how much he would actually make us privy to. I wonder if it would be Sherlock Holmes's narration to the world, or if it would play better as Holmes's narration of his thought processes to himself. Do you think Holmes narrates in his head? I'm inclined against it, but I've heard that very intelligent people often talk to themselves.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

A month or so I read the first two books in The Name of the Wind series by Patrick Rothfuss (hurry up and write book 3!!!) and I'd add Kvothe to your list of Gen-like characters. However, he doesn't have all the characteristics you list. No privileged background--in fact, he hides from his friends just how poor he is, so they won't feel sorry for him. His people skills aren't always that great--he often has a hard time figuring out the motivations of others and doesn't "get" how others feel about him. That sort of fits with Gen, too, with the heart-on-a-toothpick stuff.

What may be more important with the similarities is the cleverness, thinking ahead, bravery, and personal code of honor. Kvothe has all that in spades. He's a great actor and is very strategic (like Gen) in cultivating what others believe about him, even to the point of starting rumors about himself and how awesome he is.

I really loved the two books, but I'll warn everyone that they are too long and the action slows to a crawl in places. But is Kvothe is such a great, flawed character that I grew to love him in spite of all his mistakes and imperfections.

Ooooh! Maybe that's another characteristic to add to your list, Rosie! All the best Gen-like characters have some major flaws and are, at times, their own worst enemies. That's part of why we love them so much, right? Our hearts ache for their troubles, even when it's their own fault that they are in trouble. And, the trouble is also usually liked to their stubbornness in sticking to their own personal sense of honor, even when it's a stupid plan.

What a great conversation!

[tiegirl.livejournal.com]

Yes! Poor Kvothe! (I find those books to be quite lyrical in places, but yes, too long).

And, hello, Cat. I didn't think of him until your comment. I don't think he quite fits the mold completely, but certain aspects of his character, yeah.

[(Anonymous)]

My favourite 'Gen' type characters, other than Gen himself of course, are Aly and George from Tamora Pierce's Tortall series.

[rosaleeluann.livejournal.com]

I've never been able to get into Tamora Pierce's books, though I know lots of people love them. :-}

[(Anonymous)]

Also Artimis Fowl from the Artimis Fowl series is absolute brilliant and underhanded. He is almost always ten steps ahead and is wonderfully sarcastic at times while still occasionally showing his vulnerability and youth. Watching his character grow over the course of the series from an unscrupulous, modern thief in to the hero(ok let's be real here more like an anti-hero) he becomes is breathtaking. Though this book is a mix of sci-fi and fantasy

Next Thrawn from the Thrawn series. This one is a Star Wars book but however contaversial the movies have been lately, this book is still amazing. He's like a Star Wars Sherlock Holmes. He is a higher up in the empire so this book is rife with political intrigue and Thrawn is always in the middle of it. He is manipulating and two books in we still don't know who he's loyal to, the empire or the Chiss ascendancy. Plus he's just plain relentless and pity less, good qualities to have if you working for the empire. But he's not all bad he did care enough to risk the emperors wrath to save some kids of his own kind.

I know this was long but I didn't see the characters/books motioned and wanted to give them a shout out