[ROTT SPOILERS] Volume 2, Chapter 3

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

I have finished Return of the Thief, and really need to process this section from V2Ch3.  I was commenting on the main book discussion thread and realized my question was rapidly becoming too unwieldy for a simple discussion and decided to post as a separate thread.  I have tried this multiple times and haven't been able to get a single cut to work despite multiple approaches and versions, so I've done an lj-cut for each paragraph individually.

So the converstion between Sophos and Helen regarding whether Gen knew of Sounis's proposal and threat to give Hamiathe's stone to Gen if Helen proposed.  Which proposal are they talking about?  It sounds like it would have to be the proposal sent before The Thief that precipitated the events of the entire series, but then why on earth would Sounis choose Gen at this point?

Between comments about how Gen was always considered too close to the throne and that Helen's mother may have preferred the MoW, the implication seems to be that Gen is illegitimate and therefore actually possibly part of the lines of succession (although a case could be made for Helen and still work).  If that's the case, it seems like that would be quite a political slap in the face coming from Sounis to dredge up this sticky family drama and basically declare that either Helen isn't good enough to be a queen without marriage to him (being herself illegitimate perhaps), or that even a half-son of the Eddisian royal household would be preferable to Helen herself if she said no.  That's believably in-character for Sounis to me, but seems more complicated and subtle a plan than he'd come up with on his own.  The Magus is shown to be willing to do a lot for his country, but his ultimate goal genuinely seems to be unification of Eddis/Sounis for greater stability in the face of the Mede, so it seems like a really risky move for him to include the threat of giving the stone to Gen as part of the proposal he urged Sounis to make.  Is the goal just to destabilize the throne of Eddis by offering it to Gen so that the country descends into chaos and/or civil war, or something similar to weaken the country enough that Sounis can step in and just take over the country?  I can understand settling on a young, impetuous, and untrained member of the royal family in the hopes the instability will provide Sounis an opening, especially if their legitimacy is at least questionable if not openly acknowledged, but if Gen is publicly known to be a more distant cousin and well under adulthood, I feel like there would be any number of cousins who might be an easier choice for Sounis — legally closer in the line of succession, willing to accept a partnership or take the throne under Sounis, possibly already be part of Sounis's network, or be more easily manipulated.  

And just one other thought —Helen says Gen didn't know about this beforehand, and it seems likely from TT, but what if he did?  Is it possible part of his motivation to get Hamiathe's gift was because he didn't want to be king?

Comments

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I just reread that scene, and I don't see anything about Helen making a proposal. Am I missing something? The Real Sounis's proposal was when he was trying to blackmail Helen into marrying him.

I'm certain that the affair rumors were just that... rumors. Philanders always assume others are philandering, eh? :)

The implication that Eugenia and Helen's mother were unfaithful is a double-edged sword. It implies that Helen is an illegitimate niece and Eugenides is the son of the king and thus, the rightful heir. There is also the age-old sexism that sons always inherit before daughters to consider.

Eugenides's existence caused much distress, because he is both the thief and a part of the royal family. The Eddisians are dreadfully superstitious about the Thieves and fearful of them. They are, by centuries of tradition, not suppose to rule over Eddis. Thief blood mixed with royal blood was bound to cause an uproar.

The Real Sounis threatening to give the stone to Gen was a political hammer with which to brow-beat Helen into making the Real Sounis king. This makes A LOT more sense. The plan that the country of Eddis was going to make the Real Sounis king just because he showed up with a mythical rock always did seem a little sketch. I don't think he or the Magus expected her to go, oh sure, give the rock to Gen. They were certain she would just marry the Real Sounis.

This whole thing was meant to exploit the beliefs of the people of Eddis and how they are adamant that the Thief cannot become king. Considering the Magus's statement... She is not so secure in her power that she can risk offending the beliefs of her people...wow. This was the plot all along. By allowing the stone to be given to Gen instead of marrying the Real Sounis, Helen's would've lost her throne.

This was the most shocking part of the book for me, because it completely re-contextualizes The Thief.

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

I lost my first post and had to rewrite and recopy a handful of times so there was definitely a loss of clarity in repetition, sorry. I did mean the threat/proposal Sounis the original sent to Helen.

I really like your take and insight, thanks!

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

Okay, more evidence for the rumors, at least part of them.

In the short story "Eddis", it says that her three brothers die in a matter of days of an illness. So we know she had three brothers (at least).

In the short story "Thief!", it says that “The king was ill and both his sons had died.”

Both HIS sons. So...was one of Helen's brothers a half-brother?

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

Ooh wow. It's possible one had died previous to this, but that is a really interesting catch. Wow.

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

Also - just remembered that in QoA Eddis states that her "two brothers died of a fever in the space of a few days" in chapter 4. So maybe just a typo.

[empmai2.livejournal.com]

In the short story "Eddis" it says she has two older brothers, and one younger brother Janus. When talking about her becoming Eddis it says "that will only happen if her older brothers die, and probably her younger brother Janus as well". And then goes on to see females only inherit as a last resort.

So is there some doubt that Janus would inherit. Maybe he is the brother born in the same year as Gen?

Side note - Helen's mom is still alive I think. Does she still want to marry the king's brother, the MoW?

[cherryblosomjen.livejournal.com]

I was rereading the short story "Thief" (from Disney Adventures magazine) to see if this was the incident with Cleon that the new book references (it's not, as far as I can tell, since there's no mention of Lader) and there's a line where the cousins shout--If you're "father hadn't married so far beneath himself he could have made himself king..."

there's so many layers in these stories--sometimes they make my head spin lol

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

It was a confusing scene to me, too. Here's what I thought. Sounis (before the time period of TT) tried to get Helen to marry him by threatening to give the stone to Gen, sending Eddis into chaos and maybe civil war. It was the Magus's idea ("they both knew the mastermind of his uncle's plan.") Sounis knew enough citizens of Eddis didn't feel a woman should rule that she couldn't be certain of her holding onto the throne if that happened. Plus, everyone knew that the Thief was not supposed to rule; that was totally against the rules of generations of Eddisians. The magus didn't know Gen back then and didn't think he'd pass the stone along to Helen.

As far as the rumors of infidelity by Gen's mother and Helen's mother--it says "My father who was Eddis and Gen's father paid a fortune to the temple priests THAT YEAR to ensure THEIR SONS' naming ceremonies were uncontested." So it wasn't Helen's or Gen's legitimacy that was being questioned, it was their older brothers, born in the same year. Helen isn't a son, and she and Gen weren't born in the same year, so I assumed it was their brothers.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

This passage only gets more confusing to me the more times I read it, which maybe says something about the vicious and damaging nature of rumors.

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

Truth. It helps me a little that even if the specifics are deliberately vague and rumor-like, the essentials are understandable - Sounis is a jerk who thought he could undermine Helen's throne (magus and Sounis had different motivations for the same actions), Gen's relationship with his big family was complicated by more than just cousin/jocks bullying, and Helen is a treasure (gifted leader, calm and totally someone not to mess with, etc.).

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

Tyvm. I really appreciate your insight and it definitely helped me sort through my thoughts and clarify things. I have a hard time seeing the magus planning to offer the stone just to stir up family trouble etc. but I can definitely see him playing on the superstitions of the Eddisians to weaken Helen's position so that her option was to marry Sounis or lose her throne because she rejected the gift of the stone, or lose her country to chaos with the stone being given to a younger teen not trained to be king. The Magus's goal was unification through any means - marriage or Sounis controlling/annexing the throne.

'Their sons' is a good catch. Idr if there's mention of a younger brother to Helen, but it is still possible it was Gen and a cousin son of Eddis. There are a handful of quotes throughout the series that retroactively hint to me it was Gen specifically being questioned (like you bastard, not that I know of; I even have siblings with the same father; parallels between Stenides and Lyopidus, both born to their parents and both die d in fire). Although I do see the older brother's births that would be a bigger deal to legitimize with the priest and still totally possible.

[brandy-painter.livejournal.com]

I definitely think the textual argument is there for it being Gen and a younger brother of Helen that this is referencing. I noticed on my reread that when Gen is talking to Susa and refuses to answer to Your Majesty, he says he can use bastard because that's a favorite of his cousins. Nahusheresh uses it to taunt him as well when he's telling Gen he has no right to be king. Then Gen specifically repeats it and looks at Helen when he does upon his return. But he was being fully possessed by god Eugenides at that point. Although god Eugenides was DEFINITELY a bastard soooo....I only just realized that as I was typing this. Huh.

Anyway, I think that the rumors were just rumors, but their impact was very real. They were strong enough that bribes were required and the Magus was able to reach back and use them. I feel that it adds nuance to a lot. Gen's cousins excessive bullying of him has a whole other layer now, as does Gen's stubborn insistence not to act in any way others would define as "kingly". I think it adds to his reaction over the Pent ambassador situation as well.

[drollittle.livejournal.com]

It’s an interesting way to try to turn the tables of the story yet again, but I’m having trouble swallowing it. Would Sounis really have wanted to give the stone to some Eddisian kid when he could use it for himself? If the Magus knew so much about the Thief and the Eddisian’s feelings toward him, it seems like he ought to have recognized Gen for who he was more easily.

I could probably talk myself into believing this; you guys made some plausible explanations; but my initial reaction was heavily doubtful.

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

There is a bit of inconsistency for sure. Sounis is pretty clear that he thinks the gift should have been Sounis's, especially if you re-read the short story "Destruction". I'm guessing it was always an empty threat, but it possibly did its job well enough to get the council to vote to have Gen killed to prevent Gen from trying to claim the throne and be a puppet of Sounis.

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

I don't know if my other comment went through (can't see it right now), but I just wanted to thank you, whataliethatwas, for bringing this discussion to its own thread. There were a lot of wonderful insights from the comments! I don't have the brain-power to think too much of this issue, haha.

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

Something that has always bothered me was how/why the stone preserved Gen's life. I'm not one to fan the flames of the rumor (as I hate to believe that Gen's mother would betray her husband, but who knows...I don't know her. At all.) But here's the thing:

The gift is supposed to give immortality if it is given to the bearer. The immortality isn't activated if the gift is stolen. In the temple, the god Eugenides tells Gen to "take the stone". But the god Eugenides does not have the stone, Hephestia does. So essentially, Gen steals the stone from Hephestia.

So why does it preserve his life (both in the flood of the temple [imo] and when he is stabbed)? It's always bothered me. He STOLE it. "The thought of stealing something from the great goddess was too awful to contemplate and I could not do it." TT page 148. He also obviously GAVE it to the Magus, and STOLE it back in the river skirmish.

So now with this rumor...I'm wondering. In the act of stealing it, was he also giving it to himself? It sounds kind of stupid, but perhaps if he had royal blood or a legitimate claim to the throne of Eddis, the power of immortality applied to himself since he was both Thief and could be King. I feel like I'm grasping at straws, but seriously, this STOLE/GAVE thing has bothered me for 18 years.

[empmai2.livejournal.com]

I wonder if Sounis had made Gen king, if he would have married Brenne (the flaky daughter in CoK) to Gen. She's very kind. And beautiful. Or if he would have been married to one of Sophos sisters? (and subsequently killed off)

[empmai2.livejournal.com]

Previously I just thought they called him bastard because his parents weren't married (since the thief isn't allowed to own any property, which means the thief's spouse can't either maybe)

[more-ruthless.livejournal.com]

Gen makes it very clear in "The Thief," in the scene where Sophus seems surprised Gen knows who his father is, that Gen and all his brothers and sisters have the same father, and they are all legitimate.

[more-ruthless.livejournal.com]

And yes, that's exactly where I am up to in my re-read of the series.

[puppeteergirl.livejournal.com]

So there's a going theory that it is a mystery which will not be resolved and is up for speculation.

The way I look at it is this: it is unknown whether or not the rumors are true. People make mistakes and we seriously don't know enough about Gen's mom to know if she would do such a thing. We do know she has a reputation for being rather vengeful, and will "take the things people were most proud of". On the other hand, I only see her taking revenge out if she was actually attacked, and the MoW seems like the unendingly-loyal type of man, so it's much more difficult to imagine him cheating on his wife. So there are pretty good arguments on both sides.

Some fans think that Gen simply chooses to accept the MoW as his father, but enjoys joking with Eddis about the rumors since its up for debate. Which is also why he acts so awkward when Sophos questions Gen if he will marry Eddis at the end of TT. And why Eddis's "practically incestuous" comment in QoA is even more funny with context.

[more-ruthless.livejournal.com]

We have an entire book of Gen generating rumors for the good of Attolia as the plotline (KoA). There is every reason to believe his mother and grandfather were adept at doing the same to advance agendas for Eddis. I, for one, am of the opinion that his stating he was not illegitmate and all his brothers and sisters had the same fathers in TT is fact. I am also of the opinion that Gen stating he became Thief (vs soldier) to avoid killing as fact. I haven't quite parsed out Grandfather Thief and the assassin-ish implications of the Thief role in RotT, so I'm going to wait to comment on that until done re-reading all books.

[whataliethatwas.livejournal.com]

I think I like that it's not spelled out so that there's room to find an interpretation. It's so interesting to go to different pockets of fandom and find groups of people who can argue strongly it's one way, laying out all kinds of quotes and character actions, and then find another group able to argue equally vehemently it's the otherway, also with quotes and character interpretations.

I think I'm settling on it doesn't matter if it's true or not. I don't think mwt would have changed the writing either way - with the truth unknown I think the story would have played out the same. The rumors have already caused a lot of damage in the Eddisian court and individual lives whether founded in reality or not, and while they hit differently, I think lines like ""practically incestuous" or 'you bastard/not that I know' work both ways. They're lines I think these characters would say whether alluding to something that's happened or just with the 'I've already been hunted in Attolia' kind of dark/bitter humor Gen and others seem to enjoy.