Another Question

[etv13.livejournal.com]

 (also in the comments to the Question post below)

What would Gen have done if Attolia had refused to marry him when they were in the boat?  Was he bluffing, or  would he really have killed her?

Comments

[cleo]

He would have killed her. No question.

[bluestalking.livejournal.com]

I agree, he wouldn't have killed her. Eddis later says that they could reach a treaty without a wedding--don't know how well it would have gone, but they might still have tried for it, sans marriage. It wasn't as though the marriage plan went perfectly either. :P

[bluestalking.livejournal.com]

Oops, you said he WOULD. I think he wouldn't.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

he would've ...um, maybe he would...um ... then again...

I dunno.

Do you think he killed the guard guarding the stairway to the boat landing? Attolia thought he did.

[bluestalking.livejournal.com]

Yes.

[jesusphreaq.livejournal.com]

absolutely not. he hates killing people. he wouldn't have killed the guard. later we found out he couldn't kill someone he should have. I can't remember who.

and he at least half-expected to die by Attolia's hand. When they surfaced someone said "he said he wouldn't be here."

I lent my copies so I can't look at them for reference D: D:

[parron.livejournal.com]

I think he may well have been forced to kill her. The priority was "ending the war," after all; killing/disabling the ruler is a tried-and-true method.

[etv13.livejournal.com]

And a related thing: in retrospect, does Attolia believe he would have killed her? I know she believed it at the time, but what about after he's persuaded her that he loves her? He's still terrified of her, even after they're married, but she never seems afraid of him.

[agentmaly.livejournal.com]

That would be absolutely devastating, for her to believe he would have killed her. I guess you're right, and she must not believe it, otherwise I think their relationship would have even more problems than it did.

[idiosyncreant.livejournal.com]

I think Gen was calculating on a knowledge that Attolia would go for at least a semblance of co-operation for a better chance to escape. She looses her confidence as they go up the stairs and he proves himself quite capable of disarming her (in both senses of the word ;p) as well as in seeming control of the situation no matter what her tactic.

She wants her country to survive--she is both ruthless about it and self-sacrificial. I think he knows she'll either go through with it (his risk is that it will be without love) or determine how to get out of it.

[parron.livejournal.com]

Well, the odds were certainly in Gen's favor, and no doubt he said it sure she'd agree, but all the same. What if she hadn't?

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

He knew she'd never been trained as a soldier like Eddis had, but he was ready for anything she might dish out. After she agreed to the marriage and he gave her the oar, he took her knives away and was careful to switch to steering with his hand, leaving his hook free. Just in case?

But wait, then he gave her the choice of killing him. Would he really have let her push him into the water? Or, once again, was he pretty certain of her decision and was just making it seem like it was her choice in the end?

[sandtree.livejournal.com]

No, he wouldn't have killed her. He could have done a million things with her. He could have taken her back to the Eddisians and had her locked up. I know Gen is a bit more ruthless by the end of QoA, but would he have gone so far as to kill the woman he loved? No way. He was bluffing - remember, he's amazingly talented at telling complicated lies and weaving intricate stories, and having everyone believe them until the moment the truth comes out. That's my take on it, anyway.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I've never thought he'd have killed her, nor do I think he killed that guard. He hates killing people and only does it when forced to protect himself.

Not sure what he'd have done, though. Being Gen, he would have gone to plan B, then plan C, etc. He seems to usually plan things out very carefully ahead of time, though he admits sometimes his plans are abysmally stupid.

Gen knew how devoted to her country Attolia was. He knew her well enough to know she was very likely to go along with the marriage idea in order to protect Attolia. If she died, the country would fall into civil war and be attacked by Sounis. I wonder, did the idea of marriage to Eugenides--once she got over the shock of it--not seem so bad?

[sandtree.livejournal.com]

Exactly, he doesn't go around killing people just because it's convenient. But he had to make Attolia think that he would. He had to make her think that he killed that guard, because then she would believe that he would readily kill her. If he had just left him tied up or something, she would have seen it as a sign of weakness. He was totally playing her game, acting just like her, so that she would believe that he was ruthless.

I think the idea of marrying him didn't seem so bad. I mean, she was practically obsessed with him for the whole book. There were some pretty powerful feelings there, whether it was love or not. Plus, she certainly would have been subconsciously comparing Eugenides to that Mede (I'm not going to try and spell his name right now), and... come on. :P

[avian-xj.livejournal.com]

I agree. Answers are never as simple as yes and no with Gen. He's always got something else planned/improvised, however crazy it may be. Anyway in addition to hating to kill people, killing ATTOLIA would be a particularly big deal for him.

[bluestalking.livejournal.com]

So no one thinks he killed the guard but me. What did happen to the guard, then?

[idiosyncreant.livejournal.com]

Some clever plan, no doubt. Maybe it will come up in Book 4! *conspiritorial glance*

[9mil.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking he would have knocked her unconscious. Like he did with the guard. I assume that he was fairly certain of her saying yes to the marriaging, and knowing her, he'd figure she'd try to escape. She wouldn't be able to escape very much when she was drowned, so marriage it is! Plus there's all that despair that would have gone on in the country of Attolia, and we all know that Queen Attolia loves her country.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

btw - what an awesome question to bring up. well done!

[beatlelove927.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but he probably would have killed himself next. He would have no point in life with no hand and no love.

[estarria.livejournal.com]

Question: Do we know for certain that the guard was killed? I thought that Attolia just thought to herself that if she looked for the guard she would find him not unconscious, not bound and gagged, but dead. Is it possible she was wrong? (I know that'd be atypical for her in this sort of situation, but stranger things have happened.) I can't remember if they ever say it conclusively in the book or not.

[peggy-2.livejournal.com]

no, we don't know for certain.

[in-my-niteshirt.livejournal.com]

Of course Gen is bluffing when he says he'd drown her! Gen is a master manipulator, and he is at his best when he's kidnapping Attolia. He says, "Where there's life, there's hope, Your Majesty?" He speaks calmly and respectfully to her as he points out that her best option is to cooperate. She must assume (as Teleus and Nahusaresh do) that his goal must surely be to kill her. Later, when he says she has two choices, she assumes the two choices were to get drowned conscious or unconscious. It must come as such a shock to her to be offered life, so of course she's going to take it. She probably didn't even intend to go through with the marriage when she said it, but she understands that saying so is what will keep her alive for the moment. All these things are part of Gen's careful and deliberate strategy. He has it worked out so that he doesn't really have to kill her. It's purely a bluff I'm sure.
What he doesn't have figured out though, is how to make her fall in love with him. The Gods take care of that part for him, (because they're just so nice to him).

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I always wondered why Attolia repeated those words back to Gen when he was captured. I thought she was rubbing it in--you let me live and see what happens--but now I wonder if she was sending him a message not to give up hope.

When they were having the conversation in the boat, I can imagine Gen's thoughts: "Don't blow it, so much is riding on this, whatever you do, don't lose your temper, or make her lose hers, c'mon, must appear threatening..."

[(Anonymous)]

I guess I am in the minority in thinking that yes, Gen would have killed her. Would he have enjoyed it? Of course not. Would it break him? Quite possibly, but Gen is first and foremost loyal to his queen, and does what needs to be done.

Yes, Gen REALLY hates to kill, but he has before, and he points out in KoA that he will have to kill again. He recognizes that, as a king, his dislike of it is a political liability. If word gets around that a king will not kill, even for egregious offenses, he will have no power or authority to command his barons etc.

Now take that logic backwards. Gen has threatened to kill Attolia if she doesn't agree. Let's look at what would happen if she refused, and then he DIDN'T kill her. 1) He has just shown that whatever he might threaten, he probably won't follow through on which 2) lessens any leverage Eddis has against Attolia, and let's face it, when word gets out, 3) Sounis can relax make plans without worrying about finding Gen's hook in his throat.

If Gen didn't kill her, Eddis loses all credibility, and hopes of a treaty, whether or not they rest on a marriage, of a necessity rest on the credibility of the other side. Gen is meticulous in his field, and an exhaustively thorough planner. I have to believe that Gen went into the situation recognizing (though probably trying not to think about and slithering his thoughts away from) the possibility that he would have to kill her. I think our desire to say he wouldn't stems from an idealism and romanticism that Gen himself has shed and moved beyond at that point in the books.

[ladyfox.livejournal.com]

I forgot to add that though YES, Gen loves her, he doesn't know if it's even possible for her to love him back, and one sided love never has quite the same depth and power I think that a reciprocal love can. Also, after what he said about Sounis causing a lot of trouble for a woman he can't have, and recognizing the trait in himself... I think he would be too cognizant of the consequences to base his actions on a love which has been rejected and cannot be realized.

[sclerotia.livejournal.com]

There are two locations following the boat: at the top of the stairs where the "He said he wouldn't be here" comment was made, and the camp site where the MoW helps Attolia off her horse. I think that the MoW was at the camp and not at the t of the stairs.

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

Well, probably no one is reading this by now, but here's what I've always thought: Things were desperate. He had to take a huge risk, to gamble absolutely everything on this marriage. I think he had decided that if she said no, he would drown her -- and then drown himself. And having decided this, I think he made up his mind that it must not come to this, so he did everything he could to frame his argument in a way she'd have to accept.