Thieves, thoughts, thunderbolts (spoilers under the cut)!

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

My thoughts upon finishing Thick as Thieves. (A few of them, anyway.) Somewhat jumbled, many still processing. Numbered, in an attempt to organize them for discussion. Posting them here since the other threads are so lengthy already!

Spoilers under the cut!

Initial, overall thoughts:


1) The cultural contrasts and relationship dynamic between Kamet, a well-educated slave accustomed to existing among elevated and sophisticated company, and Costis, a free and upwardly mobile Attolian from a relatively rustic background, made for an interesting and well-crafted juxtaposition. I could easily see the hat tip to Sutcliff's Eagle of the Ninth, and agree with everyone noting similar vibes to Lewis's The Horse and His Boy. (Two of my favorite books, now in great company with a third!)

2) Okay, so... Did Costis's identity really come as a surprise, to anyone? Or, actually, my real question is: Was it even supposed to? Because I still can't find the "spoilers" for TaT that everyone was warning about in the character listing, unless it was Costis calling himself Aris. But I didn't even blink at that. Just chuckled, "Ha, quick thinking there, Costis. Wink, wink." And now I've realized I've always just assumed Costis was in this book, all the way back to MWT telling us it was the "second half" of KoA. I mean, we knew Gen had a plan that involved Costis. So, I'm just curious, why was he "the Attolian" for so long?

2.5) Costis-can't-tell-a-joke-Ormentides. :D (Stick to defending your honor, sweetpea. You're better at it, and it's ultimately more entertaining!)

3) Kamet expresses the difficulties of merging the many variations of Eugenides into a singular but multi-faceted person. (Like so many legendary figures.) Whereas I, as a reader, was having this same difficulty in regards to Costis. I guess I have to put it down to seeing him through another person's eyes, after spending the entirety of KoA inside his head. There were weird moments where I had to pause and consider how the situation or scene might have been described differently, if we were getting our narration from Costis instead of Kamet. I like Kamet, and he adds a new and interesting dimension to the series overall, but I never felt entirely in step with him.

4) Speaking of wanting to know what Costis was thinking...

COSTIS FALLING. INTO THE WELL. AND NOT DYING.


My brain knew something was up and was all "!!!" but it didn't immediately dawn on me. (Momentarily distracted as I was by my heart yelling loudly at Kamet to go back.) And then inkasrain put her finger on it for me: Gen telling Costis in KoA, "Know that you will never die of a fall unless the god himself drops you."

:O

(This honestly makes me wonder if it's That Simple? Does Costis offering up his service to Gen = the protection of the God of Thieves? Or is Costis some thiefy acolyte now?)

5) "Poor Costis." - Chapter 13, page 301, paragraph 3, line 4. In case anyone missed it.

6) "I felt a kinship for the rabbit sitting perfectly still, hoping that the lion would somehow pass him by." (pg 22) I feel like I've read that story, about lions, and bunnies... somewhere...

7) "I walked [...] to a door into the orangerie, where the trees were planted in circles around an open grassy lawn." (pg 322). Wait. Are these THE orange trees? Where Gen hid and watched Irene dance??

...I'm not crying, you're crying.

Things I'm not sure about/still pondering:

8) I'm honestly not sure what to make of the miscarriage (or the various theories surrounding it), aside from the emotional gut-punch on behalf of Gen and Irene. Ouch. I really was not prepared for that. We see so little of either of them and yet their grief was SO palpable. These characters are very dear to me and the pain I felt for them was shocking and real.

...But, Kamet describing both Gen AND Irene as being in fragile health threw me off balance a little. Wait... Irene? Fragile? Since when? I had a theory back when everyone was reacting/theorizing about Gen's illness in KoA, that he was bluffing in order to hide the real reason(s) there were so many doctors visiting the palace. I wasn't sure what those reasons were, though. (Irene's pregnancy? Giving the Medes false confidence?) I'm still not sure what to make of it. You'd think there'd be more alarm among Gen and Irene's intimate acquaintances, and less talk of potentially being at the forefront of a long and glorious reign, resulting in a "golden age," if everyone could see both Gen and Irene were at risk of prematurely keeling over off their thrones!

It's giving me anxiety. Someone get me a rocking chair and a blanket.


[Edited to add: Okay, so after thinking on it some more, with the aid of people's comments, I think I was thrown off because I had it the wrong way around--thinking Irene's poor health resulted in the miscarriage, rather than her poor heath resulting from the miscarriage. It makes more sense to me now.]

And now for a few confessions about myself as a somewhat vagarious reader.

9) I declared in Chatzy, on the day before the book release, my prediction that Eugenides would appear in some disguised fashion within the story, sooner than expected and/or made plain. Even on High Alert, I completely missed the very obvious (in retrospect) appearance of a random Attolian boot boy. I'm not kidding you. I was BORED WITH THE BOOT BOY STORY. I came to the part about the scroll and his handwriting and was like, "Huh, writer's tic!" and moved blithely on, eager to expose Gen elsewhere. Yeah, I'll be laughing at myself for the next ten years, but I'm also delighted to once again discover I've been duped, and don my dunce hat.

9.5) Sandy. That cookie did not crumble the way I thought it would. (Again, delighted.)

10) Nahuseresh: "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." (Really. How did I not see that one coming either?)

11) Me, for the last decade (since KoA was published): Dude, I miss Costis. I miss Costis really bad. Please give me more Costis. COSTISSSS.

Me, two chapters into Thick as Thieves (a.k.a. Costis Fest, with extra Costis on the side): Dude, I miss Sophos.

D':

12) I'm off to read it again, for the 2nd time in 2 days, while calls go unanswered, my laundry remains undone, my tea turns cold, and my toast burns. *state of bliss*


Thank you, MWT. <3

Comments

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Lovely review. I have to admit, though, that I was suspicious of the "servant" from the first time he was mentioned as asking for stories, and the more we heard about him, the more I thought to myself, "Ah, yep, I know who that is."

I would assume that Irene's fragile health is connected to the miscarriage?

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I might write a proper review for Amazon or Goodreads. These are just my hastily assembled thoughts and first reactions, meantime.

Honestly, I can't believe I didn't catch it. All I can say is that I was turning pages *very fast* at that point. Maybe I'd caught Costis's fever and was slightly delirious. (I also kept forgetting how bad Kamet's eyesight was and how that factored into things.)

I'd suppose it was due to the miscarriage too, but then Kamet said something about her being old for childbearing (...really??) and that didn't quite tally in my mind, along with her beauty being of the "fragile" variety. Suffice to say I've had her in the "terrifying" beauty category since day one. But perhaps Kamet was merely seeing her and Gen as completely human for the first time, in which case, I can understand, and find it touching.

[inkasrain.livejournal.com]

I think I agree that concerns about Irene's health are connected to her pregnancy and miscarriage/birth/WHATEVER HAPPENED. I admit, I bristle a bit at the idea that she's old to have a child, but (barring we poor readers being deliberately messed with) I chalk that up to the less advanced (though as we've seen, pretty decent) health care of the time.

I completely missed Kitchen!Gen, and spent a few pages wondering vaguely why we were spending so much time on this story...

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

I mean, my mother had kids until she was in her later 40s, so it always seems weird to me when people say 30s is old to have kids. But yes, I think the older medicine available is likely part of that problem - I haven't seen any evidence of germ theory yet, for example.

I was hyper alert for the reveals this time, so I was quite pleased with getting almost all of them (except for Nahasueraushish - I still can't spell his name. :)

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

I think Irene's beauty being fragile was specifically because of her health now, not normally - I think he was contrasting it with her appearance back in QoA.

(I still maintain my strong belief that Irene is 28. Take that, everyone! :)

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

He said old for a first child. Irene is around 30 and in that day and age, women were having babies at like 15, so just old from Kamet's perspective. :)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

But!! 28!! IS NOT!! OLD!! for child-bearing!!

*relinquishes megaphone*

I'll re-read that part, as I think Kamet might've said it was older for a first pregnancy (?)...

Which I suppose would be truer in times past.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

My mom had me when she was 41 (and actually struggled more with miscarriages when she was younger), so, yeah.

It's entirely possible that I'm nitpicking, but that's what we do here, right? :1

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who missed "Kitchen!Gen"! 0:)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Or, rather, "nitpicking" isn't the right term, but perhaps going over everything with a fine-toothed comb.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'm not Kamet! I take no responsibility for saying peeps are old or young. :)

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

I was the first of my siblings, and my mom was 29, almost 30, when she had me. She did have significantly more miscarriages before my last brother was born, sadly.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I came more or less to that conclusion in my comments above. Still. *rollseyes at Kamet*

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

That was the exact same quote I thought of in relation to Nahuseresh!
"What would you do if someone told you all was betrayed? I should run away: it might be true." Wisdom from Puck of Pook's Hill!
And yeah, I missed the boot boy too :) But that means that when Gen was refusing to let Irene purge the kitchens way back in KoA, he ALREADY had this plan for Kamet in mind, since it was essential that no Mede spy report to Nahuseresh and thence Kamet that they'd already met...
That's a long time to eat sand...
Trust Gen to think of Kamet during the Winter of Whining, too :) What other as yet unrevealed plans do you think he was hatching then?!?

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to hear that. I do respect MWT's choice to incorporate such a difficult topic into her story, which lends a realism that, say, identical twins named Eugenides II and Useless the Younger Jr., would have seriously lacked.

Poor Gen and Irene. :'( I wanted to run up and hug them both.

I guess my questioning surrounds issues of "why" from a purely plot-related standpoint, and that's all going to be conjecture for now. So, so, so.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

It certainly casts new light on many of Gen's conversations with Costis in KoA! I'm specifically thinking of one, very early on, in chapter 1 (pg. 11 of the new paperback) of KoA:

[Costis, speaking of Aris] "He's okloi. His family has no land. Sejanus wouldn't drink with him."
[Gen] "But your family are patronoi? And you and Aris are friends?"
[Costis] "Yes."

Gen's already establishing that Costis isn't above mingling and making friends with those in different (even lower) social classes... like, say, a slave.

And as for the sand in Gen's food, I love how everyone (including us!) jumped to the conclusion that his problems arise solely from people hating him, when in fact, it sometimes turns out to be people loving him so much it hurts.

At least he had a little sand-consuming help, in solidarity from Sophos. :)

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought he was checking Costis' social attitudes/tolerance, so to speak, but yes indeed!
Er... re missing Sophos, I /have/ written a missing-moment-with-Sophos-and-Helen-fanfic for TaT already, but I didn't like to post it on FFN just yet.
*wonders how to get it to you*

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

You could message it to me? Or, I'll send you my email address. I like having pen-pals. :)

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

See your inbox!

[(Anonymous)]

I will reply later with more but very quickly:

The only shock to me was the miscarriage. Sandal boy was identified when Kamet said he liked the gardens (RIGHT after Costis said that Attolis loved the gardens.) I never really though Nahuseresh was dead. I mean, the only indication through the whole book was Laela's word, and I had no reason to fully trust her. I loved the reveal of both sandal boy and Nahuseresh's lack of deadness. Especially glad Nahuseresh was not poisoned because...I mean, Gen still needs revenge for the assassination attempt, yes?

I don't understand why Costis was arrested at the end...was it only for his quick comment to Kamet???

I think Costis was called, "the Attolian" the whole book for two reasons. One, it demonstrates Kamet's mindset of resisting building a friendship with Costis (out of misguided loyalty to the Mede.) Second, I have a suspicion that the reason he is called "the Attolian" has something to do with the fact that MWT wants the books to be able to stand alone. I haven't fully thought this out, so maybe I'm way off track.


-Puppeteergirl

[(Anonymous)]

About the sand: I'm wondering if the sand in the food was supposed to force Gen to be so hungry that he had to personally sneak food from the kitchens himself, thereby allowing the staff to have a visit. ;)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Ha!! *makes sense*

[readsintrees.livejournal.com]

28 is not old for today, but perhaps it's a bit aged for that time period...

[readsintrees.livejournal.com]

I guessed Costis right away. I'm not sure why, but I guess I just assumed it was him, and then mentioning his ring was the clincher for me. I loaned TaT to my neighbor (who just read the first four books on my recommendation, and he agreed that they're brilliant), and HE thought the Attolian was Gen's father. Whhhaaattt? *insert scoffing face* Dude, Gen's dad is Eddisian...

I also guessed that the Attolian boy was Gen, especially when he described being chased out of the city by dogs. It confused me a little bit, because I was thinking RECENT Gen and was wondering how the King was getting away with being in the kitchen and no one noticed? I chalked it up to a good disguise before they clarified the timeline.

I did not guess that Nahuseresh wasn't dead. I just went along with that one. I should have known.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I guessed it was Costis, too! So, I'm just curious, why was he "the Attolian" for so long? Because Kamet was distant - he thinks Attolians are barbarians, plus he's going to have to ditch the guy. I have a different question: if this is a story really told to Relius, and Relius knows who the Attolian is, why keep it up for so long? Isn't that a storytelling conceit belied by the POV?

And then inkasrain put her finger on it for me: Gen telling Costis in KoA, "Know that you will never die of a fall unless the god himself drops you."

I LOOOOOVE THIS. I don't know how it works, exactly, but the gods are very involved in the story, right? So it's not too surprising to me.

I thought it was interesting, how Costis was still the loose thread dangling off Teleus's schedule in this book. He still doesn't have a conventional place in the Guard.

I'm SO SAD about the baby. And I did not see the Nahuseresh fiction, either, and I was looking out for a trickster-y moment!