Thieves, thoughts, thunderbolts (spoilers under the cut)!

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

My thoughts upon finishing Thick as Thieves. (A few of them, anyway.) Somewhat jumbled, many still processing. Numbered, in an attempt to organize them for discussion. Posting them here since the other threads are so lengthy already!

Spoilers under the cut!

Initial, overall thoughts:


1) The cultural contrasts and relationship dynamic between Kamet, a well-educated slave accustomed to existing among elevated and sophisticated company, and Costis, a free and upwardly mobile Attolian from a relatively rustic background, made for an interesting and well-crafted juxtaposition. I could easily see the hat tip to Sutcliff's Eagle of the Ninth, and agree with everyone noting similar vibes to Lewis's The Horse and His Boy. (Two of my favorite books, now in great company with a third!)

2) Okay, so... Did Costis's identity really come as a surprise, to anyone? Or, actually, my real question is: Was it even supposed to? Because I still can't find the "spoilers" for TaT that everyone was warning about in the character listing, unless it was Costis calling himself Aris. But I didn't even blink at that. Just chuckled, "Ha, quick thinking there, Costis. Wink, wink." And now I've realized I've always just assumed Costis was in this book, all the way back to MWT telling us it was the "second half" of KoA. I mean, we knew Gen had a plan that involved Costis. So, I'm just curious, why was he "the Attolian" for so long?

2.5) Costis-can't-tell-a-joke-Ormentides. :D (Stick to defending your honor, sweetpea. You're better at it, and it's ultimately more entertaining!)

3) Kamet expresses the difficulties of merging the many variations of Eugenides into a singular but multi-faceted person. (Like so many legendary figures.) Whereas I, as a reader, was having this same difficulty in regards to Costis. I guess I have to put it down to seeing him through another person's eyes, after spending the entirety of KoA inside his head. There were weird moments where I had to pause and consider how the situation or scene might have been described differently, if we were getting our narration from Costis instead of Kamet. I like Kamet, and he adds a new and interesting dimension to the series overall, but I never felt entirely in step with him.

4) Speaking of wanting to know what Costis was thinking...

COSTIS FALLING. INTO THE WELL. AND NOT DYING.


My brain knew something was up and was all "!!!" but it didn't immediately dawn on me. (Momentarily distracted as I was by my heart yelling loudly at Kamet to go back.) And then inkasrain put her finger on it for me: Gen telling Costis in KoA, "Know that you will never die of a fall unless the god himself drops you."

:O

(This honestly makes me wonder if it's That Simple? Does Costis offering up his service to Gen = the protection of the God of Thieves? Or is Costis some thiefy acolyte now?)

5) "Poor Costis." - Chapter 13, page 301, paragraph 3, line 4. In case anyone missed it.

6) "I felt a kinship for the rabbit sitting perfectly still, hoping that the lion would somehow pass him by." (pg 22) I feel like I've read that story, about lions, and bunnies... somewhere...

7) "I walked [...] to a door into the orangerie, where the trees were planted in circles around an open grassy lawn." (pg 322). Wait. Are these THE orange trees? Where Gen hid and watched Irene dance??

...I'm not crying, you're crying.

Things I'm not sure about/still pondering:

8) I'm honestly not sure what to make of the miscarriage (or the various theories surrounding it), aside from the emotional gut-punch on behalf of Gen and Irene. Ouch. I really was not prepared for that. We see so little of either of them and yet their grief was SO palpable. These characters are very dear to me and the pain I felt for them was shocking and real.

...But, Kamet describing both Gen AND Irene as being in fragile health threw me off balance a little. Wait... Irene? Fragile? Since when? I had a theory back when everyone was reacting/theorizing about Gen's illness in KoA, that he was bluffing in order to hide the real reason(s) there were so many doctors visiting the palace. I wasn't sure what those reasons were, though. (Irene's pregnancy? Giving the Medes false confidence?) I'm still not sure what to make of it. You'd think there'd be more alarm among Gen and Irene's intimate acquaintances, and less talk of potentially being at the forefront of a long and glorious reign, resulting in a "golden age," if everyone could see both Gen and Irene were at risk of prematurely keeling over off their thrones!

It's giving me anxiety. Someone get me a rocking chair and a blanket.


[Edited to add: Okay, so after thinking on it some more, with the aid of people's comments, I think I was thrown off because I had it the wrong way around--thinking Irene's poor health resulted in the miscarriage, rather than her poor heath resulting from the miscarriage. It makes more sense to me now.]

And now for a few confessions about myself as a somewhat vagarious reader.

9) I declared in Chatzy, on the day before the book release, my prediction that Eugenides would appear in some disguised fashion within the story, sooner than expected and/or made plain. Even on High Alert, I completely missed the very obvious (in retrospect) appearance of a random Attolian boot boy. I'm not kidding you. I was BORED WITH THE BOOT BOY STORY. I came to the part about the scroll and his handwriting and was like, "Huh, writer's tic!" and moved blithely on, eager to expose Gen elsewhere. Yeah, I'll be laughing at myself for the next ten years, but I'm also delighted to once again discover I've been duped, and don my dunce hat.

9.5) Sandy. That cookie did not crumble the way I thought it would. (Again, delighted.)

10) Nahuseresh: "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." (Really. How did I not see that one coming either?)

11) Me, for the last decade (since KoA was published): Dude, I miss Costis. I miss Costis really bad. Please give me more Costis. COSTISSSS.

Me, two chapters into Thick as Thieves (a.k.a. Costis Fest, with extra Costis on the side): Dude, I miss Sophos.

D':

12) I'm off to read it again, for the 2nd time in 2 days, while calls go unanswered, my laundry remains undone, my tea turns cold, and my toast burns. *state of bliss*


Thank you, MWT. <3

Comments

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

Lovely review. I have to admit, though, that I was suspicious of the "servant" from the first time he was mentioned as asking for stories, and the more we heard about him, the more I thought to myself, "Ah, yep, I know who that is."

I would assume that Irene's fragile health is connected to the miscarriage?

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I might write a proper review for Amazon or Goodreads. These are just my hastily assembled thoughts and first reactions, meantime.

Honestly, I can't believe I didn't catch it. All I can say is that I was turning pages *very fast* at that point. Maybe I'd caught Costis's fever and was slightly delirious. (I also kept forgetting how bad Kamet's eyesight was and how that factored into things.)

I'd suppose it was due to the miscarriage too, but then Kamet said something about her being old for childbearing (...really??) and that didn't quite tally in my mind, along with her beauty being of the "fragile" variety. Suffice to say I've had her in the "terrifying" beauty category since day one. But perhaps Kamet was merely seeing her and Gen as completely human for the first time, in which case, I can understand, and find it touching.

[inkasrain.livejournal.com]

I think I agree that concerns about Irene's health are connected to her pregnancy and miscarriage/birth/WHATEVER HAPPENED. I admit, I bristle a bit at the idea that she's old to have a child, but (barring we poor readers being deliberately messed with) I chalk that up to the less advanced (though as we've seen, pretty decent) health care of the time.

I completely missed Kitchen!Gen, and spent a few pages wondering vaguely why we were spending so much time on this story...

[an-english-girl.livejournal.com]

That was the exact same quote I thought of in relation to Nahuseresh!
"What would you do if someone told you all was betrayed? I should run away: it might be true." Wisdom from Puck of Pook's Hill!
And yeah, I missed the boot boy too :) But that means that when Gen was refusing to let Irene purge the kitchens way back in KoA, he ALREADY had this plan for Kamet in mind, since it was essential that no Mede spy report to Nahuseresh and thence Kamet that they'd already met...
That's a long time to eat sand...
Trust Gen to think of Kamet during the Winter of Whining, too :) What other as yet unrevealed plans do you think he was hatching then?!?

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

It certainly casts new light on many of Gen's conversations with Costis in KoA! I'm specifically thinking of one, very early on, in chapter 1 (pg. 11 of the new paperback) of KoA:

[Costis, speaking of Aris] "He's okloi. His family has no land. Sejanus wouldn't drink with him."
[Gen] "But your family are patronoi? And you and Aris are friends?"
[Costis] "Yes."

Gen's already establishing that Costis isn't above mingling and making friends with those in different (even lower) social classes... like, say, a slave.

And as for the sand in Gen's food, I love how everyone (including us!) jumped to the conclusion that his problems arise solely from people hating him, when in fact, it sometimes turns out to be people loving him so much it hurts.

At least he had a little sand-consuming help, in solidarity from Sophos. :)

[(Anonymous)]

I will reply later with more but very quickly:

The only shock to me was the miscarriage. Sandal boy was identified when Kamet said he liked the gardens (RIGHT after Costis said that Attolis loved the gardens.) I never really though Nahuseresh was dead. I mean, the only indication through the whole book was Laela's word, and I had no reason to fully trust her. I loved the reveal of both sandal boy and Nahuseresh's lack of deadness. Especially glad Nahuseresh was not poisoned because...I mean, Gen still needs revenge for the assassination attempt, yes?

I don't understand why Costis was arrested at the end...was it only for his quick comment to Kamet???

I think Costis was called, "the Attolian" the whole book for two reasons. One, it demonstrates Kamet's mindset of resisting building a friendship with Costis (out of misguided loyalty to the Mede.) Second, I have a suspicion that the reason he is called "the Attolian" has something to do with the fact that MWT wants the books to be able to stand alone. I haven't fully thought this out, so maybe I'm way off track.


-Puppeteergirl

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

I totally believed Nahuseresh was dead and I was very angry about it, because we need a showdown, dang it! I was super happy when Gen's trickery was revealed at the end.

I agree with you about calling Costis "the Attolian." For Kamet (Watsonianly?) it's just that he doesn't trust Costis (or doesn't think he does), doesn't want to get to know him, and is trying to avoid getting attached because he knows he'll have to ditch Costis later.

There's also a sort of psychological distance caused by lying to someone, and Kamet lies to Costis the whole book, until they're on the boat approaching the harbor, when Kamet finally tells Costis the truth. Then, they're arrested and have no time to talk, but the very next time he sees Costis, the first time he sees Costis after being totally honest with him, is also when he uses Costis's name for the first time.

Doylistically, it also makes Costis a more mysterious character for first-time readers of the series, and emphasizes how foreign he is compared to all the other characters we see in the Mede Empire.

For me, even though I knew it was Costis the whole time, it created a sort of distance for me with Costis that helped me get into Kamet's state of mind and see Costis through his eyes, more so than I think it would have if I'd just been cheerfully reading Costis's name every third paragraph like it was KoA all over again and thinking, "Yep, I know this guy!" I wouldn't ever have had to pause and reconsider his character from a different angle. But I definitely did that during TaT. Costis feels almost like a new person now.

OCstis and Kamet's Arrest

[(Anonymous)]

I reread the ending and realized that with the miscarriage, everyone and the King were wrapped up with Irene's Health. He (Gen) could not focus on keeping Kamet safe from the Mede Ambassador and spys so having the big public arrest would ensure that Kamet is kept safe under wraps (in jail under guard) until Gen was ready to spring the next step to his game...

[readsintrees.livejournal.com]

I guessed Costis right away. I'm not sure why, but I guess I just assumed it was him, and then mentioning his ring was the clincher for me. I loaned TaT to my neighbor (who just read the first four books on my recommendation, and he agreed that they're brilliant), and HE thought the Attolian was Gen's father. Whhhaaattt? *insert scoffing face* Dude, Gen's dad is Eddisian...

I also guessed that the Attolian boy was Gen, especially when he described being chased out of the city by dogs. It confused me a little bit, because I was thinking RECENT Gen and was wondering how the King was getting away with being in the kitchen and no one noticed? I chalked it up to a good disguise before they clarified the timeline.

I did not guess that Nahuseresh wasn't dead. I just went along with that one. I should have known.

[kitsune-rains.livejournal.com]

I assumed it was Costis from the get-go and then occasionally second guessed myself -- he seemed /too/ competent in this situation to be the Costis I know! He was so quick on his feet! But I guess that's the outsider's opinion and not being in Costis' own head for his self-doubt. I love that Costis' sheer capability and smoothness was what made me question if it was him.

(Imagining Gen's dad being sent off to steal Kamet is hilarious. Much shorter book. Kamet runs into him in the hall, Eddis' Minister of War says nothing. Grabs him by the head and just bodily carries him out of the palace. No one is brave enough to stop it happening. There's a huge and undeniable international incident. Kamet isn't happy. Gen isn't happy. Gen's dad isn't happy. No one is happy.)

I figured out the kitchen boy was Gen and then had a moment of "but how did he hide his hand? just in the folds of clothes and people don't notice what they don't expect?" but then when Kamet mentioned him biting the cook I realized it was /before/ he'd been captured. :( That's the sort of thing Gen was doing right before he was caught, when he could still be taken for a boy.

Kamet thought he left abruptly, but his sight is so abysmal he was just never close enough to the bruised, dazed, tortured Thief to make the connection.

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

I guessed it was Costis, too! So, I'm just curious, why was he "the Attolian" for so long? Because Kamet was distant - he thinks Attolians are barbarians, plus he's going to have to ditch the guy. I have a different question: if this is a story really told to Relius, and Relius knows who the Attolian is, why keep it up for so long? Isn't that a storytelling conceit belied by the POV?

And then inkasrain put her finger on it for me: Gen telling Costis in KoA, "Know that you will never die of a fall unless the god himself drops you."

I LOOOOOVE THIS. I don't know how it works, exactly, but the gods are very involved in the story, right? So it's not too surprising to me.

I thought it was interesting, how Costis was still the loose thread dangling off Teleus's schedule in this book. He still doesn't have a conventional place in the Guard.

I'm SO SAD about the baby. And I did not see the Nahuseresh fiction, either, and I was looking out for a trickster-y moment!

[beth-shulman.livejournal.com]

Does anyone have theories about the wine merchant, by the way?

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I understood "the Attolian" from Kamet's perspective in the beginning, but like you, simply wondered at it going on for so long. I forgot to bookmark the page where Costis's name is first used, but it's very late in the game, long after we're given descriptions and even Costis's own personal history with Gen, making it all pretty obvious.

I always enjoy the 3-way arguments between Costis, Teleus, and the King.

Teleus: "Listen, son..."

Costis: "OK, but I'm not your son."

Gen: "Teleus, I understand you don't appreciate me appropriating your son Costis."

Costis: "I'm not his son."

Teleus: "You know what? You're right. Sorry, son."

[savithny.livejournal.com]

I think Attolia's poor health is pretty clearly because of the miscarriage. Which I strongly believe is real, not yet another plot/scheme.

As Kamet says, "Late miscarriages are often deadly." It's medieval medicine but not entirely inaccurate. Later miscarriages often can result in maternal hemmorage (normal labor with a healthy full-term baby includes physiological processes that don't happen during a miscarriage).

Irene is both physically fragile (blood loss) and emotionally fragile (loss, grief, and an enormous hormone crash that makes regular PMS seem like nothing).

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

:'(

And Irene is so gentle towards Kamet, and kind in her appreciation of his words. It's hard to imagine her being softened by such trials and heartache, pre-QoA. The character development here is notable and beautiful and affirms the power of the love she shares with Gen.

[kulai-raito.livejournal.com]

The only surprise was the miscarriage but honestly, there was no time to even be surprise. It was just suddenly mentioned to us - wham! ...And then u all felt jibed after waiting for 7 years and reading 300+pages hoping for something.

Irene and Gen both didn't sound so deeply sorrow about the lost if that is any concern saying if it was a false news of miscarriage or not. Wouldn't Irene look sadder when Kamet saw her at the gardens at least? But I will accept that it was a miscarriage because no mother would want to be that far away from their new born.

There were a good number of hints the Attolian was Costis esp. with all the references of falling by roof tiles.

I guess the shoe polisher was Gen, esp when the mentioning of the scroll hand writing was similar to what was described as Gen writing before. I"m guessing all that play out before the start of QoA when Gen was happily coming and going from Attolia palace.

As for the sand in food references. Slightly confused. I thought some people said that the kitchen didn't like the new king so they put sand in it not knowing it was Gen and now i'm getting they put sand in it so that he come and see them? OH, are people saying in reference to p. 325 in which Brinna has caught Gen helping himself to rolls? So.. the kitchen wasn't that neglected then if he comes down to get food. I guess i'm just getting confused with the timeline of things regarding the Kitchen, Gen visit, and the sand.

[fandomthinking.livejournal.com]

Hehe, I noticed those clues re: "falling by roof tiles" and the handwriting, too.

As for the kitchen -- my interpretation was Gen didn't visit *once* in these first few months as king, and the kitchen staff for some reason either never saw Gen up close or never made the connection that Gen == their wayward errand boy.

Finally Irene makes Gen go down to see the kitchen staff, and he gets his ear boxed by Sandy (that was her name, right?) for the deception.

Boot Boy

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I honestly thought the boot boy thing was sooo obvious! XD

Hides in the garden to avoid working.
Has poor, shaky handwriting, but only after he disappears. (Gen was copying scrolls in QoA.)
BOOTS. "The king is very fond of his boots."
He bit the cook. TWICE.
Was chased around Attolia with guns. AKA: The Thief.
Has an older brother who is a scholar. AKA: Stenides.
Is there one day then gone the next.
Costis keeps insisting his existence was impossible, and that he must've been lying.

Once I read the boot boy parts, everything made sense!

Gen was captured wearing an Attolian servants uniform.
That's what he was talking about when he was drunk on the parapet.
He was investigating the Mede treaty, so where would he go? Straight to Kamet, of course!
That's how he knows Sandy!

Re: Boot Boy

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

Well, I certainly hope the part about Stenides breaking his legs was a fabrication!

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna reply on the whole post first before diving into the comments. =)

2) I think I knew that it was Costis when he was first described as having an honest, open face. Plus terrible Mede accent. So, basically, first chapter. I found it funny he used Aris as an alias.

3) I found a few surprising things about Costis as well! The murder-spree of the slavers for one thing; though I think he had a very violent reaction after being shown a severed hand. Also, his sad story about the scamming maid. I thought he had too much honour for that kind of thing. Other surprises were quite welcome: that he's Hot Stuff, and that he can sing. That he doesn't actually tell too terrible jokes (c'moonnnn, c'mon they were funny!!)

4) AHHHHHHHHH! This is why I love Sounis!! I did NOT connect that at all!

7) Yes, the orangerie! I recognized it immediately, though I've tended to semi-associate oranges in general to Irene these past few years.

8) I think that the miscarriage was real. I really do. There was too much emotion to spin it into some kind of elaborate hoax. A lot of MWT's twists come from the manipulation of trivial details ("trivial" until we find out that they're not), and not from grand, Hollywood-style misinformations. It's the subtle difference between being tricked and being lied to. And also, a lot of the scheming ideas that I've observed so far don't sit well with me. I don't like to think that Gen and Irene would send off their first child, a *baby*, somewhere where they can't keep an eye on him/her. Gen wouldn't have reduced the guard by half if he believed there were people half as competent as him in protecting the queen, and if he believes he's the most competent to protect the queen, why would he believe differently for his heir?

9) Yes, I almost fell for the Boot Boy story too! Until I discussed it with booksrgood4u, and then I totally believed it was Gen!

10) You didn't? It's weird, because I think it would have been more of a twist for me if Nahuseresh had *actually* died. I just thought it was too easy a death for him. But then again, I thought the same thing of Sounis once. But I almost dismissed Nahuseresh's death as quickly as it was brought it up. I never quite believed it.

11) Yoooo, same!!! I totally missed Sophos and Eddis in this book! I know some people might not agree with me, but I love, love, loved Sophos's narration from the first time I read ACoK, and Kamet, though he's quite a character himself, just didn't have the same appeal. He was so... I don't know the word. Not that funny.

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

Not funny? WHAT!? Kamet was a hilarious snark-monster! XD

"I woke up to find I hadn't been murdered."

"He seemed lost in thought or whatever he had in his head that approximated thought."

"Do you know any prays?"
"What to keep lions away?"

"You're alive?"
"Of course, I'm alive."
"Well, why didn't you say something?"

"He can sleep on the floor."

His dry sense of humor often reminded me of Terence from the Squire's Tales. Sophos's humor was self-depreciating while Kamet's is more condescending like Terence. My sense of humor leans more towards the condescending side I think, so maybe that why I'm so entertained by him. I love Sophos too and greatly missed him and Helen, but I'm more enamored with Kamet's narrration style than Sophos's. To each their own? ;)

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

My super disorganized thoughts!

Re: #7

I didn't figure out the orange trees were the orange trees at ALL. Thank you for pointing that out!

I did really love the tour of the Attolian gardens, because of course Gen's been in them so often he would probably never have paused to describe them - like the throne room in QoA - and Costis describes the layout of the palace grounds a bit, but only when he's trying to rescue Gen from the assassins, and it's mostly about how many obstacles are in his way (ponds and stairs and waist-high flower beds and such).

Kamet, though, looks at everything in the gardens while he's reconsidering the possibility that Attolia could be beautiful, and so we get these lovely descriptions:

"They were as orderly and peaceful as I remembered, and I liked to visit one particular outdoor room where hedges enclosed a grove of mature trees and a deep pool was encircled by a ring of large stones. I enjoyed sitting there as the fish rose to the surface nearby, nibbling at the crumbs I dropped on the water."

(I think that's the place where Gen was sitting with his feet up on the edge of the pool before the assassins attacked, because Costis mentions fish!)

"There was nowhere else I needed to be, the heavy schedule of meetings had finally begun to thin, and so I wandered, the flowers and leafy branches nodding at me as I passed."

"I walked between lemon trees, standing like soldiers at attention on either side of the path, to a door into the orangerie, where the trees were planted in circles around an open grassy lawn."

"On the other side of the orangerie was another enclosed garden where the vegetables grew in tidy rows, and waist-high stacks of clay tubes held hives of honeybees. The insects hummed in and out of them as I passed."

They're all so simple but so elegant. I love the way Attolia's gardens look in this book and I haven't even actually seen them.

Also: Bees.

Was it just me, or were there a lot of bees in this story?

Cassa's bees and the various versions of the story about how Ennikar got the honey from her, multiple mentions of beeswax (like when Costis was retinning that woman's baking pan - what a cool bit of metalcraft to get right in the middle of the story, btw! - he asked for tallow or beeswax, and got beeswax). "The messengers of the gods carry rumors through the sky the way bees carry pollen and drop them from their wings onto the earth below." And then the honeybees in Attolia at the end.

I can tell I'm going to be associating this story with bees.

[drashizu.livejournal.com]

Also, is it just me or were those jokes Costis told way, way funnier than Kamet let on? I laughed out loud at both of them. Element of surprise, I guess. I would never have taken Costis for a joke-teller.

[bluejayfic.livejournal.com]

I think I did ok in the "figure out how MWT is tricking you" game, this time around!

I pegged Costis as the Attolian basically from square one (ok, from "he had a simple, straightforward look to him", which is on page 12). I also guessed that Nahuseresh wasn't dead right away, mostly because Costis's earnest "come with me, you can be free!" did not sound like a Eugenides plan. So when Laela came in and sent Kamet off, I went, "ah, there's the second half of the plan! I knew that couldn't be it!" After which the only question was whether Eugenides arranged the death or just the message, and Kamet's reasoning about the Attolians not having the ability to kill Nahuseresh was convincing.

I was vaguely expecting to have that be confirmed pretty early on, so the long delay was kind of nerve-racking. Still, the longer I read without any confirmation either way, the more sure I got. Because if it had looked like a lie by accident, someone would have mentioned Nahuseresh's death much sooner. Same thing with Costis's identity, actually, though that was much less hidden. When I read "He told me his name", and realized the actual name was missing I knew two things - one, I was being fucked with, and two, it had to be Costis, because otherwise the being-fucked-with would be way too mean-spirited. Megan doesn't do that.

Also, my notes say, word for word, the following: “I punched the king in the face” - YES!!!

I completely missed Kitchen!Gen. I thought it was just heartwarming backstory. Which it was. But. Oops.

There seem to be two interpretations of the sand-in-Gen's-food story. The way I originally understood it was that the cooks didn't like "the king" for all the reasons stated in the previous books, and didn't know he had been the boy, because he had changed so much and they only saw him from a distance. Then when he went to visit, they recognized him and stopped. The other interpretation is that they totally recognized him right away and put sand in his food as punishment for lying to them and then not coming to see them. The main point in favor of this theory, I think, is that it seems unlikely that Gen could have successfully avoided every single person from the kitchens for however long he's been in Attolia.

Regarding Immakuk and Ennikar - the first time the "wine merchant" showed up, I assumed he was working for Eugenides. The light dawned when it was mentioned, chapters later, that Immakuk has one eye. At which point I frantically leafed back to the description of the wine merchant, confirmed that he was "obviously a former soldier" and was missing an eye, and said to myself, "eeeeeee!!!"

I also missed the "Know that you will never die of a fall unless the god himself drops you" connection. I didn't believe that Costis was dead, but I was quite worried.

I need to reread. My notes were focusing on the plot-related aspects, the first time around, and there's so much more awesome stuff there.

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I did wonder initially if Nahuseresh's poisoning was part of a larger Attolian plot, despite Kamet's reasons why they shouldn't have the ability (putting it down to eternally underestimating Eugenides). Because, well, we know Gen has it in for N and it wouldn't be the first time Irene poisoned somebody. I couldn't decide if it was something they would do, though, and when Kamet explained how it would result in the death of the slaves, etc., I was pretty sure Gen would find other means, having a moral conscience and an abhorrence for unnecessary bloodshed under all that Thiefy showmanship. Of course, it turns out it technically was part of the Attolian plot, but it didn't occur to me that it could also be a lie.

I guess it's safe to say Gen is now famous in four countries for his lies!

[ninedaysaqueen.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking more on Costis/the Attolian thing...

When Kamet says "As if he expected me to use it." he's not just being condescending. Slaves don't use the names of freemen. They do not address them by their name, only as master, sir, and so on.

Kamet will not use Costis's name or even think of him as such till he himself feels like he is a freeman and is allowed to do so. I see it as a sign of deep psychological conditioning.

Kamet using Costis's name

[celebrilomiel.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hadn't caught that. It makes perfect sense — and I love the point it makes about his own perception of his freedom.

However, Kamet did use the names of freemen throughout the book. One could argue that in the instance of Rakra, Kamet used his name because he was in a position of authority over him, but Kamet used the names of freemen even when he wasn't the more powerful one (Gessiret the tailor, Roamanj the caravan master).

Drashizu (http://sounis.livejournal.com/713795.html?thread=15306051#t15306051) made a good point about Kamet not naming Costis because he was lying to him, and beth_shulman (http://sounis.livejournal.com/713795.html?thread=15271235#t15271235) (and perhaps someone else? my memory fails me) made a good point about Kamet viewing Costis as foreign, and therefore continually referring to him as an outsider.

Perhaps there is a blend of all of those factors at play? Maybe Kamet is not using Costis's name because he is deceiving him and doesn't want to grow attached to him, because he views him as a barbarian and a threat, and because he is still clinging to a slave's dignity and perception.

[ibmiller.livejournal.com]

My family are finally getting around to listening to the book on Audible, and they reminded me about the lion cave - which reminds me of the Lion/cat among the tombs of the ancient kings in The Horse and His Boy...coincidence? :)

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

I love how nonchalant Costis is about the lion. Come to think of it, he wasn't overly intimidated by the hunting dogs in KoA, either. Do you think that comes of being a soldier, a farm boy, or both?

The recurring lion in The Horse and His Boy, culminating in Aslan's "I was the lion" reveal, gives me ALL THE NARNIA FEELS.

[milotti.livejournal.com]

I was certain that the soldier was Costis all along, although the fact that he was always called "the Attolian" started getting annoying to me, because that meant my belief went unconfirmed for a long time. See, it's been YEARS since I've read KoA, but the soldier was described as I imagined Costis to look, he had a similar personality, he mentioned punching Eugenides (I vaguely remembered this in KoA), and I saw no reason why she would make up a new soldier and never refer to him by name when she had a perfectly developed one from a previous book that could fill the role and also provide a nice cameo to fans.

About halfway through, I gave in and flipped through the book to see if it was Costis, because I didn't want to imagine him as Costis the whole time only to find out he wasn't, and then I found the section where Kamet says his name for the first time and I was relieved. I'm not sure I would've liked this book as much if it turned out he WASN'T Costis, lol. He's probably one of my favorite characters

Confused

[meghan pfister (from livejournal.com)]

Ok, I hope I don't sound really stupid. I loved Thick as Thieves, but I was honestly super confused by a few parts. Number 1, I thought the Attolian identified himself early on as Aris, so at the end when they were in the prison cells and Kamet says Costis' name I was like, what? What is happening? Am I the only one? I mean, I'm super glad that it was Costis the whole time, but that totally confused me. Number 2, totally missed the boot boy story, maybe I was skimming it (I'll have to reread that part now). Can someone please explain number 1 to me? I really thought it was Aris because he said he was Aris!

Re: Confused

[celebrilomiel.livejournal.com]

Costis was using Aristogiton's name as an alias, just like he told the caravan guards that Kamet's name was Metit. There were other hints that "the Attolian" was Costis, like when he talked about how he had punched the king in the face and how people in Attolia were trying to kill him with falling roof tiles. He was just using Aris's name because Aris is his friend.

Thick as Thieves and beyond

[(Anonymous)]

I decided to read the entire set before reading this book so even though I had preordered it, I had to wait and am so glad I did. Much of the interweaving MWT does for us the old readers in all the books so leaped out and I saw more nuances of Gen's brilliance and the "long games" he plays. Not to mention the continued hand of the gods, (which was much more subtle in this book and not pointed out like in the past).

He is both tenderhearted and ruthless, though the ruthless part comes, I think, in is his final agreement with the gods in stepping into the role they have placed on him to save the lesser peninsula as King (and King of Kings). I think because he really doesn't want the role is why he is the best (and only one) to fulfill it. They take away his ability to be the Thief in the traditional sense (loss of hand, and you can blame the Queen/s or the Mede Ambassador, but in truth it was the gods) yet he is now a thief of bigger things, queens and kingdoms.

I was surprise by this book since I have been anticipating the upcoming war between the Lesser Peninsula (Attolia, Sounis and Eddis) and the Medes. Why go to such lengths (both in actions as well as an entire book)? Yes it was the back half of the KofK book originally, but why work so hard to get this one man, especially when you realize he had befriended him in the kitchens/gardens so there was much more of a relationship between them just hinted at....

I know I wasn't sure if Kamet's Master was really dead. I recognized Costis and even Gen showing up as the sandal polisher and biter of the head cook... (loved that one! twice!!!!)

It's the end is where I think I had my revelation... The last book will not be a war at all. Costis mentioned it already, the King predicted that if the Nephew and new Emperor does not attack Attolis and continue his conquest of more lands, the Medes Empire will fall apart with backbiting barons and other countries that are under the thumb/control of the Empire, fighting the weakened Dictator and leading to the destruction of the Mede Empire...

I think Gen will do to the Medes what the Medes have been trying to do to Attolia and Sounis, by helping the dissent and the final destruction of the Medes.

In rereading all the books in order I saw more clearly how his love for Sophos did not stop him from making sure the Kingdom of Sounis would never again be a danger to Attolia and his heirs. It worked out that those he loves Sophos and Helen (Eddis) can live in harmony but they are still going to be beholden to him and Attolia. Per Reluis: Gen is quite tenderhearted as he cuts you into pieces and feeds you to the wolves. His love does not stop what He will do to protect His own and that is what Irene and the Attolian's learned about him. Like a good parent He will make the hard decisions. Hopefully he can counterbalance the cost and repay by arranging they get their heart's desire like Dites or Sophos or now Kamet if they live through it!

I believe he truly believes the Magus that the greatest danger to Attolia are the Medes, so it cannot be just to stop them from attacking, but destroying them forever so they cannot continue to be a danger to his Kingdom, his Queen and his Heirs.

As I sat there with the book finished and all the knowledge he had gain from Kamet on the Medes when the final brilliance of MWT hit me... I am thinking way to low for the Gen I know (and love)!!! He's not just going for destroying the Medes, he's going to become King over them!!!!!

Talk about a game changer. It would shift EVERYTHING! He/Attolia would not only be safe, they would now be a Major Power player and the Greater Peninsula would also no longer be any kind of threat.... He will truly be the King of Kings. Can't wait to see how he (MWT) pulls this one off!

[hobbydabbler.livejournal.com]

Very late to the game (just reread Thick as Thieves and realized I didn't talk through any of the finer points!) but thank you so much for this thread!

I didn't even realize that Costis wasn't exactly mentioned by name for most of the book... of course being a reread (and having read it when it first came out 3 years ago I don't remember if I was shocked or if I knew it was Costis/figured it out as I went along...) I knew it was Costis... but the giveaway would have probably been when he introduced himself as Aris.

Can I also just say - I loved when we get to see a 3rd person perspective of Costis - especially in his physical description and the way he presents himself outwardly (and getting to see what Gen would have seen in KofA!!) - because it's so different from the way he's presented in KofA. For some reason Costis never seemed like a big blundering guy in KofA (probably because the image of him against the Eddisians stands out so strongly!) but it was definitely interesting to see Kamet seeing him as a fool to be taken advantage of, very similar to how Gen did, really, and getting more of a glimpse into Gen's character through these discrepancies.

[checkers65477.livejournal.com]

I know not many people will see your comment buried here, but I wanted to let you know that I did! And, yes, Costis! He's burly! He's good-looking! He sings! I love all the new things we learn about him when we see him through Kamet's eyes.

I mean, I knew all along he was good-looking but it was nice to have it confirmed. :-)