Thieves, thoughts, thunderbolts (spoilers under the cut)!

[freenarnian.livejournal.com]

My thoughts upon finishing Thick as Thieves. (A few of them, anyway.) Somewhat jumbled, many still processing. Numbered, in an attempt to organize them for discussion. Posting them here since the other threads are so lengthy already!

Spoilers under the cut!

Initial, overall thoughts:


1) The cultural contrasts and relationship dynamic between Kamet, a well-educated slave accustomed to existing among elevated and sophisticated company, and Costis, a free and upwardly mobile Attolian from a relatively rustic background, made for an interesting and well-crafted juxtaposition. I could easily see the hat tip to Sutcliff's Eagle of the Ninth, and agree with everyone noting similar vibes to Lewis's The Horse and His Boy. (Two of my favorite books, now in great company with a third!)

2) Okay, so... Did Costis's identity really come as a surprise, to anyone? Or, actually, my real question is: Was it even supposed to? Because I still can't find the "spoilers" for TaT that everyone was warning about in the character listing, unless it was Costis calling himself Aris. But I didn't even blink at that. Just chuckled, "Ha, quick thinking there, Costis. Wink, wink." And now I've realized I've always just assumed Costis was in this book, all the way back to MWT telling us it was the "second half" of KoA. I mean, we knew Gen had a plan that involved Costis. So, I'm just curious, why was he "the Attolian" for so long?

2.5) Costis-can't-tell-a-joke-Ormentides. :D (Stick to defending your honor, sweetpea. You're better at it, and it's ultimately more entertaining!)

3) Kamet expresses the difficulties of merging the many variations of Eugenides into a singular but multi-faceted person. (Like so many legendary figures.) Whereas I, as a reader, was having this same difficulty in regards to Costis. I guess I have to put it down to seeing him through another person's eyes, after spending the entirety of KoA inside his head. There were weird moments where I had to pause and consider how the situation or scene might have been described differently, if we were getting our narration from Costis instead of Kamet. I like Kamet, and he adds a new and interesting dimension to the series overall, but I never felt entirely in step with him.

4) Speaking of wanting to know what Costis was thinking...

COSTIS FALLING. INTO THE WELL. AND NOT DYING.


My brain knew something was up and was all "!!!" but it didn't immediately dawn on me. (Momentarily distracted as I was by my heart yelling loudly at Kamet to go back.) And then inkasrain put her finger on it for me: Gen telling Costis in KoA, "Know that you will never die of a fall unless the god himself drops you."

:O

(This honestly makes me wonder if it's That Simple? Does Costis offering up his service to Gen = the protection of the God of Thieves? Or is Costis some thiefy acolyte now?)

5) "Poor Costis." - Chapter 13, page 301, paragraph 3, line 4. In case anyone missed it.

6) "I felt a kinship for the rabbit sitting perfectly still, hoping that the lion would somehow pass him by." (pg 22) I feel like I've read that story, about lions, and bunnies... somewhere...

7) "I walked [...] to a door into the orangerie, where the trees were planted in circles around an open grassy lawn." (pg 322). Wait. Are these THE orange trees? Where Gen hid and watched Irene dance??

...I'm not crying, you're crying.

Things I'm not sure about/still pondering:

8) I'm honestly not sure what to make of the miscarriage (or the various theories surrounding it), aside from the emotional gut-punch on behalf of Gen and Irene. Ouch. I really was not prepared for that. We see so little of either of them and yet their grief was SO palpable. These characters are very dear to me and the pain I felt for them was shocking and real.

...But, Kamet describing both Gen AND Irene as being in fragile health threw me off balance a little. Wait... Irene? Fragile? Since when? I had a theory back when everyone was reacting/theorizing about Gen's illness in KoA, that he was bluffing in order to hide the real reason(s) there were so many doctors visiting the palace. I wasn't sure what those reasons were, though. (Irene's pregnancy? Giving the Medes false confidence?) I'm still not sure what to make of it. You'd think there'd be more alarm among Gen and Irene's intimate acquaintances, and less talk of potentially being at the forefront of a long and glorious reign, resulting in a "golden age," if everyone could see both Gen and Irene were at risk of prematurely keeling over off their thrones!

It's giving me anxiety. Someone get me a rocking chair and a blanket.


[Edited to add: Okay, so after thinking on it some more, with the aid of people's comments, I think I was thrown off because I had it the wrong way around--thinking Irene's poor health resulted in the miscarriage, rather than her poor heath resulting from the miscarriage. It makes more sense to me now.]

And now for a few confessions about myself as a somewhat vagarious reader.

9) I declared in Chatzy, on the day before the book release, my prediction that Eugenides would appear in some disguised fashion within the story, sooner than expected and/or made plain. Even on High Alert, I completely missed the very obvious (in retrospect) appearance of a random Attolian boot boy. I'm not kidding you. I was BORED WITH THE BOOT BOY STORY. I came to the part about the scroll and his handwriting and was like, "Huh, writer's tic!" and moved blithely on, eager to expose Gen elsewhere. Yeah, I'll be laughing at myself for the next ten years, but I'm also delighted to once again discover I've been duped, and don my dunce hat.

9.5) Sandy. That cookie did not crumble the way I thought it would. (Again, delighted.)

10) Nahuseresh: "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." (Really. How did I not see that one coming either?)

11) Me, for the last decade (since KoA was published): Dude, I miss Costis. I miss Costis really bad. Please give me more Costis. COSTISSSS.

Me, two chapters into Thick as Thieves (a.k.a. Costis Fest, with extra Costis on the side): Dude, I miss Sophos.

D':

12) I'm off to read it again, for the 2nd time in 2 days, while calls go unanswered, my laundry remains undone, my tea turns cold, and my toast burns. *state of bliss*


Thank you, MWT. <3

Comments

[aelfequeen.livejournal.com]

Re the miscarriage, I really don't believe there was one. In my mind, Gita Kingsdaughter is the baby that was born, and not miscarried, in this book.

P 287:
Guards talk about how the streets are silent because the queen has micarried. One guard mentions that he heard it was a son.

P 318-320:
Attolia talks about the river knowing its time and gets Kamet to recite the tablet of instruction on it. Attolia says "It is not HER time. We will welcome her when she comes AGAIN".

These words indicate to me that a daughter was born, but that Attolia and Gen misplanted the impression that a son was miscarried. So if anyone else is looking for a hidden heir, they look for a boy, not a baby girl.

I believe they hid her because of safety reasons, and maybe even wanting her to be brought up in relative emotional safety like in the mountains of Eddis. Also reminds me of how Attolia was able to have a better childhood as someone not expected to inherit the throne (think about the politics about whom she would marry after she rose), and how she might have wanted that safe childhood for her daughter. Similarly, while Gen was underestimated and looked down upon in Eddis growing up, his relative insignificance gave him tons of time to explore and learn whatever he wanted about the world. Think of all the slimy heirs to Attolian barons that would be trying to be the only heir to the tri-kingdom's childhood sweetheart, if she had to grow up known. Not to mention any danger to any second child of Gen and Attolia that came along later, if for eg some Baron decided that they preferred to have their sons marry a subservient princess heir, than to have a subsequent male heir to the throne who would control things himself.

Yes, Kamet notes that Attolia looks more frail than before, but who wouldn't, just after their first childbirth without modern anaesthesia, and having to execute the difficult decision of being separated from your child as well?

Also, on p 299 when Kamet snaps "we all die", Gen is "suddenly so grieved" but it doesn't really mention much else. I can't help but feel that with Gen's personality, faced with the recent death of a beloved and awaited child, would have exhibited some anger as well with Kamet's bringing up that loss. Just think of how badly he reacted to the loss of his hand. While we note no anger (eg uncontrollable shaking, a horrible silence that made everyone in the room regret their presence) here, Gen could have been grieved simply at having to miss his daugher's early years, similar to the reason for Attolia's sadness above while she waits for the right time to reintroduce her daughter. I note that both Attolia and Gen grew up without being especially close to either parent throughout the whole childhood, so they definitely have some idea of how tough it can be for a kid. They could always visit incognito though.

Also lol - if the kid was sent to grow up in Eddis with family, I wonder how that would have changed the in-law dynamics with the Minister of War (thinking of how in-law relations can be weird but usually all is forgiven once a cute grand-kid comes along for them to play with!)

I also wonder what Gita means - anyone know if the word "river" could be translated as Gita in some language? That might mean Attolia was speaking directly of her daughter by name on p 318. The name might also be appropriate in the context of "Water finds a way" by Costis about the mountains that could not be overcome by the Medes, and powerful imagery in The Thief (the maze being revealed by the river) and other books (wooden canon up the river in QOA), and as a tribute to the god of the river.

And "Kingsdaughter" - here I think of King translated as Annux, Great King of more than one country, i.e. our Gen when this series is done! And am reminded of how Kamet is now known as Kingnamer. (Kamet e dai Annux!)

This would also explain in interviews why MWT has to resist so much writing Gita Kingsdaughter's story - the story of her beloved Gen & Attolia's kid!

It also does make sense for Gen & Attolia's kid to want to have a map of Eddis, Attolia & Sounis (her dad's hometown, her mom's hometown and her uncle's hometown).

[1221bookworm.livejournal.com]

I love that you pointed out when Irene said it was not HER time - I picked up on that too, but not the AGAIN part. Definitely a hoax. Yup yup.

Also, we know that Gen has seen death -remember the courtier who asked about his cousins, and Gen said that most of them were dead? That could be the source of his anger, and not the death of his child.

And we've seen he's not above lying about people being dead .......

[manderelee.livejournal.com]

I know I'm sorta beating a dead horse at this point, since I've already talked to you and Books about my opinion, but I'll write my interpretation of those lines, so other people might see.

The whole "her" and "she" vs the son thing: My interpretation of this is that everyone hoped it would be a boy so that they could have an heir. But when the baby was miscarried, I think it was far along enough to have the sex of the child established, and when the body was retrieved, they found out it was a girl.

The "again" part: I think she meant that the girl came to them once already as a baby in her. And my interpretation of "again" meant she'll have a daughter again in the future with the same soul... although I could probably just be reflecting my own views on spirituality at this point. But that's where I'm coming from, and that's the first explanation my brain offered up.

Gen lying about death: I think it's safe to say that lying to someone else about the death of a man he hates is not the same thing as lying to his entire country about the death of his own child and convincing his own wife to tag along with that plan.

Gen/Irene didn't seem sad enough: Sorry, but I must have read a different book, because the scene with Kamet broke my sappy heart.

I guess I just don't know what a hoax would achieve. I think my own stubbornness about this issue stems from my firm belief that Gen and Irene are the best people to take care of their baby. (And also, I would never question MWT's skills in writing, but... turning miscarriage into a trick seems a little tasteless to me. Miscarriage has more connotation to it than just death.)

EDIT: I just realized... it must seem like I'm trying to break my own heart over this thing. Why do I do this to myself? It's not like I wanted their baby to die... but I don't know, I'm so uncomfortable with all the hoax alternatives!

[aelfequeen.livejournal.com]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

On whether everyone could have been projecting a male heir, and were't informed of the female miscarriage when it actually happened - well, a girl can be an heir as well, as Attolia herself has proven, so I'm not sure how much wanting a specifically male heir would have been tolerated among the royal guard who love the queen. And the news had travelled to the point that the streets were quiet (so it seems like there could have been ample time to sort out details like the sex of the child), and the guard who said he heard it was a male was not contradicted even by other members of the guard, whom you would expect to be somewhat in the know as members of the royal household... So it still makes more sense to me to believe the prevailing news amongst the Attolians is that the miscarried child was a male, instead of that being a misinformed rumor/projection.

The "again" part - not sure if there's any mention of such belief amongst the Attolians, but I saw your later comment that the ancient Greeks didn't believe in reincarnation.

Gen lies about everything though! It's a character trait that even Attolia comes to expect.

To clarify, I didn't mean that Gen/Irene were not sad enough, but that Gen did not seem angry at the way things had turned out/the gods on top of being sad. And I did believe both seemed sad, but that the sadness may have been equally expected in a situation where they both decided to part with their first child for whatever reason that might have convinced them it was best to.

About what a hoax would achieve - I guess we have slightly different views on that. I really do believe a good emotional environment growing up is important, and that would be really difficult in the Attolian court, especially in this rough political climate. And sending the child away doesn't mean Gen and Irene could never visit or communicate with the child.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I'm really confused about the whole thing. If it's in fact a boy, because the guard wasn't contradicted, why does Attolia mourn a girl? And if they are in fact twins, why does Attolia mourn for the girl whom she's certain will come back and not the boy she lost forever?

Unghhh.... I really wish MWT didn't leave us with such an ambiguous, heavy matter.

- Leng

[starmy63 (from livejournal.com)]

Any number of things this could actually turn out to be, but what if there are twins? What if one died and one lived? Again with MWT's love of POV play, there just isn't enough information to really know what's going on, but the he/she and again and Kamet's view of Gen's reactions are all certainly flags that there is more to this story than we've gotten in TaT.